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Astartes are weapons and nothing more so being unquestioning of order is the ideal trait for them.

And this library, did the SW just go hey books! kill em? no the library was attacked because the enemy was in their not because the SW just go around destroying knowledge. They also only kill those who dont comply not just anyone as you probably already know but since your beind pedantic youve probably not considered stating. And how the hell can people who simply memorize everything and kill with such efficency be stupid? they dont question authority as was my context not unquestioning of the world, theyre all about fate and wyrd and what not.

And they are like spartans if you read between the lines, maybe at a superificial level their all norse but look at their way of life dude. They drown all mutants at birth like spartans, train from childhood like spartans, (and not in schools like smurfs) if they dont grasp an axe their killed like spartans and they love war above all else like spartans. They act like spartans but look like norsemen whereas the smurfs dont look like spartans and act like...... well i cant say lol.

And how is being as the emperor intended stupid? is he stupid now? wow dude your pedestal really high up your arse.

Just out of curiosity whats the difference between an idiot and someone whose stupid? an idiot is a stupid person and a stupid person is an idiot.

And yes im a loyal SW player. Not blind just loyal, just like the lovely wolfies.

BTW FLAMING OTHER USERS IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE its easy to quote the hell out of something and lose context in an attempt to be right.

I don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble of designing a load of Nordic influenced fluff, design models with Nordic paraphenalia, and then source the characteristics from a different culture?

A bat has wings but it ain't a bird.
A dolphin has fins but it ain't a fish.

Am sure a cursory bit of research would throw up such behaviour more widely practiced than soley in Sparta.

SgtSixkilla wrote:*phew* Oh good, I thought I was the only one to whom this stuff mattered.

You're not the only one. Not by a long shot. One of my armies is Salamanders; and I almost repainted the whole thing after reading "Salamander" by Nick Kyme. 100 pages into that novel and I was convinced they were a bunch of cry babies. Fortunately, I'm a bit stubborn and ended up finishing that novel ( *not* my favorite by any stretch) and also read Firedrake. Other than a few minor lapses into cry baby land, Firedrake showed them in a light more befitting space marines.


Point is, if you want fluff on Space Wolves, read Prospero Burns. It gives a completely different take on what happened.. Made me want to start a Space Wolf army.. if I just didn't have that half completed Dark Eldar army..

Another thing we need to consider when aproaching this topic is that the SW in Prospero Burns and the modern day 40k SW are different in their behaviour. As stated by the author of Prospero Burns the SW during the heresy were still developing their traditions and mindsets, they had not yet fully established who they were and as such did not act as SW of later generations act. Just something to ponder about. 10,000 years is a long time and things change no matter how much you try not to

i collect SW but im a big fan of thousand sons purely as they aren't actually evil just as Magnus says everyone has a path and you ca't run from it the universe always makes you tread the path wether you like it or not or words to that effect.

and even the thousand sons aren't evil now most of them are mindless armour suits controlled by sorcerers gone mad i just hope the propehcies of magnus are true and the ravens of blood redeem them

The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.

But aren't Sw's ruthless and execute every last one heretical or not?
and another problem is wouldn't the records be passed on by word of mouth etc from the ex-chapters but currently everything is just destroyed not even rumours or names exist

The Emperor makes every SM and Primarch vow never to speak of the 2 missing primarchs as well as destroying all records of them. They must have been more mutated than sanguinius or some other such naughty thing for the but have it seem as if they never existed.

Plus the chapters arent missing their probs in the ultramarines given by then end of the heresy 1 in every 2 SM were UM. Thered be no need to destroy the chapters they probably never met their primarchs.

Oh and i wholeheartedly agree that modern day SW are very different than The Rout, though as my username would suggest i prefer the rout, ruthless unstoppable and accompanied by a primarch killer, what in IoM is tougher than a primarch killer? Oh and ragnar rules....

Alpha - they didnt execute the legions, just mostly their primarchs. Noone knows why - or at least "why" hasnt yet appeared in print. Hell, before the Heresy novels it hadnt been confirmed it was SW that were responsible.

Last I looked ADB had put up figures for pre-heresy legions - avg size of about 100,000 marines, UM and SW nearer 250,000 (hmm, where did the extras come from I wonder )

Post Heresy you have each legion being split into chapters - I think UM were roughly 36 chapters. So that's 250,000 -> 36,000 from a chapter not as heavily hit as others.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.

To be honest, although reaaally strong hints are given in that direction in "prospero burns", we never clearly read about the story of the two missing legions. I think we should keep these thoughts as speculations for the moment.

I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.


Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.

So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.

Laodamia wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.

To be honest, although reaaally strong hints are given in that direction in "prospero burns", we never clearly read about the story of the two missing legions. I think we should keep these thoughts as speculations for the moment.

Indeed

The First Heretic goes further in to the Ultramarines containing elements of at least one of the missing, but it's speculation and rumour and even the Word Bearers say this.

The whole Executioner thing could just mean that they execute anything that they get sent to kill, doesn't necessarily mean other that they were created to kill Primarchs and Astartes. I think it's Longfang who says that the Space Wolves get sent to do the jobs that other Legions don't want to do, which I took to be the thankless tasks like the assault on the Quietude.

It's just the way the Space Wolves deem themselves. If Russ landed on any other planet and they had a different Primarch their outlook could've been different. As with the other Legions when the Primarchs were reunited with them they adopted the styles and teachings of their founder.

With these hints about the two missing Legions yeah, you can make ties, but I'm sure we'll never find out and a lot of it will just have a simple explanation.

And the whole Leman Russ being sent after Magnus, who better to send than someone that really really doesn't like who they're after. At least you know they'll get the job done and not convinced otherwise.

The Wolves aren't dum or mindless, it's a mask they wear for an image.

Mit Gas wrote:
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. .

Yes, by their Primarch

Pilau Rice wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.

To be honest, although reaaally strong hints are given in that direction in "prospero burns", we never clearly read about the story of the two missing legions. I think we should keep these thoughts as speculations for the moment.

Indeed

The whole Executioner thing could lust mean that they execute anything that they get sent to kill, doesn't necessarily mean other that they were created to kill Primarchs and Astartes. I think it's Longfang who says that the Space Wolves get sent to do the jobs that other Legions don't want to do, which I took to be the thankless tasks like the assault on the Quietude.

It's just the way the Space Wolves deem themselves. If Russ landed on any other planet and they had a different Primarch their outlook could've been different. As with the other Legions when the Primarchs were reunited with them they adopted the styles and teachings of their founder.

With these hints about the two missing Legions yeah, you can make ties, but I'm sure we'll never find out and a lot of it will just have a simple explanation.

And the whole Leman Russ being sent after Magnus, who better to send than someone that really really doesn't like who they're after. At least you know they'll get the job done and not convinced otherwise.

The Wolves aren't dum or mindless, it's a mask they wear for an image.

Mit Gas wrote:
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. .

Yes, by their Primarch

No, by circumstances/fate/Tzeentch. They were claimed by Tzeentch long before Magnus was reunited with his sons. Magnus dealt with Tzeentch (remember that deal with losing one of his eyes - that stopped the mutation, which claimed Ahriman's brother who in turn cast the Rubric many, many years later) long before he pledged his loyalty to him. I'd say the Thousand Sons were one of the finest plans of Tzeentch. And everyone was deceived by him. Still, the Wolves acted like retards, kinda like the Emperorin this case. ^_^

No the wolves will triumph we kick arse
and we like orks no he realisied kids and was the better man
at purplefood i said i crumped yo stuff

Mit Gas wrote:
No, by circumstances/fate/Tzeentch. They were claimed by Tzeentch long before Magnus was reunited with his sons. Magnus dealt with Tzeentch (remember that deal with losing one of his eyes - that stopped the mutation, which claimed Ahriman's brother who in turn cast the Rubric many, many years later) long before he pledged his loyalty to him. I'd say the Thousand Sons were one of the finest plans of Tzeentch. And everyone was deceived by him. Still, the Wolves acted like retards, kinda like the Emperorin this case. ^_^

Magnus arrogance and belief that he knew everything about the warp and its residents was his and his Legions undoing. He made a deal with things that he thought he had power over and it bit him in the donkey.

It's a tale with an ironic twist, both the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons ignored the edict of Nikea, Magnus was just to big headed about the whole thing and thought he knew best trying to show
the Emperor Horus betrayal by Sorcery. Things would've been different if he had acted as the Emperor had commanded.

rovian wrote:No the wolves will triumph we kick arse
and we like orks no he realisied kids and was the better man
at purplefood i said i crumped yo stuff

Pleeeaaase, put some punctuation in your sentences.

And speak english.

Pilau - no, they really are the Executioners. That is their role - to "do the unthinkable"

And what is the MOST unthinkable thing to a standard SM? Hint: it's repeated a million times throughout the Heresy.

I started to collect SW. Then I read A thousand Sons. And I almost wanted to trade away my SW because they are the biggest hypocrites on the galaxy. "Dur, our Rune Priests get their powers from the planet! Yes sir! Ignore the fact that it was shown in the book that this was not true at all, that the RPs drew their power from the Warp the same as any Librarian."

To make it worse, after they caused the Edict of Nikea, they continued to use their rune priests when all librarians were banned!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Pilau - no, they really are the Executioners. That is their role - to "do the unthinkable"

And what is the MOST unthinkable thing to a standard SM? Hint: it's repeated a million times throughout the Heresy.

Yeah, marine vs marine, I know I know, but until there is a definite concrete 'Leman killed Primarch 2' then i'm reserving the right to disagree.

I would say the most unthinkable thing for a standard Space Marine would be to betray the Emperor

Not met Russ yet in Prospero Burns, just up to the part where Hawser is collecting the tales of Longfang.

akaean wrote:Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.

The SW are essentially a chaos army serving under the protection of the Emperor. They have sorcerers (er, rune priests), exhibit tremendous amounts of mutation, and worship false gods. Not to mention that they were serving the ends of Horus and the traitor legions when they turned on the Thousand Sons.

The only thing that prevents them from turning to Chaos is that they're opportunists who get a better deal from the Emperor, who tolerates their essential Chaotic nature.

If the Emperor had sided with Magnus and allowed him to stop the brutal and unprovoked attack by the puppies on Prospero, the Thousand Sons would have remained loyal and provided a much better asset to the IoM than the renegade Space Wolves.

Pilau Rice wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Pilau - no, they really are the Executioners. That is their role - to "do the unthinkable"

And what is the MOST unthinkable thing to a standard SM? Hint: it's repeated a million times throughout the Heresy.

Yeah, marine vs marine, I know I know, but until there is a definite concrete 'Leman killed Primarch 2' then i'm reserving the right to disagree.

I would say the most unthinkable thing for a standard Space Marine would be to betray the Emperor

Not met Russ yet in Prospero Burns, just up to the part where Hawser is collecting the tales of Longfang.

Actually Nos - I have been thinking on this and maybe would kind of agree, it would be one of the reasons that the Space Wolves seem such a dour lot and keep themselves to themselves. You don't really want to be making friends and then one day maybe having to go kill them.

Mit Gas wrote:I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.


Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.

So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.

Really?
I chose SW's because I like Nordic myth and not because I am a juvenile.
I chose to get SW's when new to the hobby and before knowing they were a newly refurbished army with shiney stuff and the bandwagon to despise.
I would be very grateful for you to point out this negative flaw that I have in common with all other SW collectors.
Being slowed I have absolutely no clue what it might be.

But if you hate fictional soldiers so much you have have a few issues to deal with before lambasting others.

biccat wrote:

akaean wrote:Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.

The SW are essentially a chaos army serving under the protection of the Emperor. They have sorcerers (er, rune priests), exhibit tremendous amounts of mutation, and worship false gods. Not to mention that they were serving the ends of Horus and the traitor legions when they turned on the Thousand Sons.

The only thing that prevents them from turning to Chaos is that they're opportunists who get a better deal from the Emperor, who tolerates their essential Chaotic nature.

If the Emperor had sided with Magnus and allowed him to stop the brutal and unprovoked attack by the puppies on Prospero, the Thousand Sons would have remained loyal and provided a much better asset to the IoM than the renegade Space Wolves.

I don't think that the TS could have remained loyal if they had wanted to. There were just too many things stacked against them. The highest one being Magnus's deal with the daemon prince of Tzeentch(or perhaps Tzeentch himself) to keep the rampant mutation the TS suffered at bay. The DP could have reneged on their deal at any time he wanted, causing the previous mutations to once again take over the TS(as he did end up doing to force Magnus to ally with Horus). Add to that Magnus being an idiot and breaching the part of the webway the Emperor was working with from the golden throne.

The TS were a doomed legion from the beginning, much like the other 2 nameless legions who were destroyed. Their bodies channeled too much warp energy. While this allowed them to be awesome sorcerers, without the protection of Tzeentch it also caused uncontrollable mutation.

Personally I have to wonder why the Emperor didn't try to find a way to save them himself. He was able to create Magnus, who was able to channel that much warp energy without mutating. Why couldn't he solve the problem of the TS mutations?

They really are a "tragic hero". They were doomed from the start. I think their best fate could have been following through with what Magnus wanted, just let the SW kill them off and die with honor. Without the TS it is entirely possible that Horus wouldn't have even breached the Palace on Terra.




I wonder if the TS could break away from Chaos if Ahriman was ever able to find something to reverse the rubric and still keep the mutations in check. At that point they would have no reason to side with chaos, other than the whole SWs trying to kill them, which if they found out that it was Horus that caused it would possibly make them want to break from Chaos even more. Of course, I'm not sure if Magnus would ever be able to un-DP himself.

I got the impression from Prospero Burns/Thousand Sons that the Wolves were not stupid/bloodthirsty...just utterly dedicated to the Allfather and purely clinical/focused in carrying out his sentence.

However, Abnett lost me about half way through Prospero. Great start to that novel...then just really degraded IMO. In particular;

Rune Priest arent librarians and therefore not banned by the edicts of nikea. They do use the warp tis true but not to the extent librarians do, they dont even need nor use psychic hoods.

Not to mention their power come from psychically imbued runes so their not really librarians.

As for the mutation it was a wholly intended thing created by the emperor to give the wolves an edge over other marines, the cup of the wulfen is from terra after all.

And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.

The barbarism is the mask the cunning is hidden, theyre not stupid and are possibly even one of the smartest legions given their obssesive inteligence gathering and lack of books.

And i chose SW because i loved ragnar not because im a slow, sounds like someones a bit jealous of the most succesful chapter.....

13th black crusade, first war for armageddon, and TS death... i rest my wolfcase.

oh and NO codex astartes, war must be pretty simple when you got a decision making book, if you ask me the codex chapters are stupid, they cant even think for themselves let alone act for themselves.

Khisanth Magus wrote:

biccat wrote:

akaean wrote:Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.

The SW are essentially a chaos army serving under the protection of the Emperor. They have sorcerers (er, rune priests), exhibit tremendous amounts of mutation, and worship false gods. Not to mention that they were serving the ends of Horus and the traitor legions when they turned on the Thousand Sons.

The only thing that prevents them from turning to Chaos is that they're opportunists who get a better deal from the Emperor, who tolerates their essential Chaotic nature.

If the Emperor had sided with Magnus and allowed him to stop the brutal and unprovoked attack by the puppies on Prospero, the Thousand Sons would have remained loyal and provided a much better asset to the IoM than the renegade Space Wolves.

I don't think that the TS could have remained loyal if they had wanted to. There were just too many things stacked against them. The highest one being Magnus's deal with the daemon prince of Tzeentch(or perhaps Tzeentch himself) to keep the rampant mutation the TS suffered at bay. The DP could have reneged on their deal at any time he wanted, causing the previous mutations to once again take over the TS(as he did end up doing to force Magnus to ally with Horus). Add to that Magnus being an idiot and breaching the part of the webway the Emperor was working with from the golden throne.

The TS were a doomed legion from the beginning, much like the other 2 nameless legions who were destroyed. Their bodies channeled too much warp energy. While this allowed them to be awesome sorcerers, without the protection of Tzeentch it also caused uncontrollable mutation.

Personally I have to wonder why the Emperor didn't try to find a way to save them himself. He was able to create Magnus, who was able to channel that much warp energy without mutating. Why couldn't he solve the problem of the TS mutations?

They really are a "tragic hero". They were doomed from the start. I think their best fate could have been following through with what Magnus wanted, just let the SW kill them off and die with honor. Without the TS it is entirely possible that Horus wouldn't have even breached the Palace on Terra.




I wonder if the TS could break away from Chaos if Ahriman was ever able to find something to reverse the rubric and still keep the mutations in check. At that point they would have no reason to side with chaos, other than the whole SWs trying to kill them, which if they found out that it was Horus that caused it would possibly make them want to break from Chaos even more. Of course, I'm not sure if Magnus would ever be able to un-DP himself.

"apparently" take this not as fact but as tall rumour that the reason abbaddon wants the blood ravens dead and or chaos is so that they can stop the reclaimations of the thousand sonshow they plan to do this is unknown even in rumour but im guessing its something to do with blood ravens "if they are" TH having the pure magnus geneseed free from any chaos influence still doesn't account for DP magnus re transformation

the rout wrote:And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.

...sounds like someones a bit jealous of the most succesful chapter.....

I was just going through my Chaos Codex, and came across a lovely fluff section concerning the capture of the Wolf of Fenris by the Red Corsairs.

Chaos Codex, pg 59 wrote: On the starboard side, it seemed at first that the Red Corsairs might be held out of the gun decks. Then without warning, several of the Space Wolves turned on their brethren, attacking them from behind before surrendering to the mercy of the Blood Reaver. They recanted their oaths to the Space Wolves, Leman Russ and the Emperor, and swore new pledges of loyalty to Huron. As a reward for their treachery, Blackheart granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris.

well look at that, SEVERAL Space Wolves decided to recant their oaths to Russ and the Emporer and join up with Huron Blackheart. Nobody is beyond corruption... I'd wager the Wolves are especially vulnerable, due to being proud, arrogant, and violent.

the rout wrote:And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.

They're not any more false than the Chaos Gods, but according to the Inquisition, it's Heresy. If they weren't Astartes, they would have been purged long ago.

It's only the (questionable) continued influence of the Emperor that kept them from being obliterated during the Horus Heresy.

Khisanth Magus wrote:I don't think that the TS could have remained loyal if they had wanted to. There were just too many things stacked against them. The highest one being Magnus's deal with the daemon prince of Tzeentch(or perhaps Tzeentch himself) to keep the rampant mutation the TS suffered at bay. The DP could have reneged on their deal at any time he wanted, causing the previous mutations to once again take over the TS(as he did end up doing to force Magnus to ally with Horus). Add to that Magnus being an idiot and breaching the part of the webway the Emperor was working with from the golden throne.

Given that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs in the first place and then betrayed them, I think he could have defended the Thousand Sons from some of Tzeentch's influence.

LOL i said none of them have turned chaos not not none of them have turned renegade. Several wolves have turned their back on the imperium but their just rebels not chaos marines, and before you say it yes their is a huuuuuuge difference between the two.

Nikea was changed in the heresy books. It used to be that sorcery was banned but psykers were allowed.
And you can't pull the SW are mutated card because so are navigators. The Emperor let them live and prosper why should anyone think themselves above him and try to 'cleanse' them?