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Dark wrote:-Throws an axe at Mit Gas-

That's a better reaction? xD

YES!

I honestly believe that Space Wolves are traitors to the Imperium, and solely responsible for the civil war, the loss of legions, and the Emperor's Death.

I wrote this elsewhere, copying it here because it fits.
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Greetings my easily misguided future slaves, whose torture and soul-searing agony will keep my kabal entertained endlessly, and our skin pale, creamy, and vibrant with the raw terror you shake with upon contemplation of the Maleficarum standing before you.

I’ve long had nothing but contempt for all Astartes, and the rise of Space Wolves as a dominant force among Space Marine players has been the result of many snorts of laughter amongst our inner circle. Unimaginative as your pseudo-species of Frankenstein assemblies are, Space Mongrels hold a special place of humour in my black heart. What other legion could be so easily misguided to betray the Imperium and destroy the Emperor’s most loyal servants at but a word of a treacherous son? What other legion could be counted on to not have the intelligence to question the value of their actions? Stupid and unintelligent at best, traitorous to mankind at worst, these hypocritical, superstitious, and inept servants of Chaos designed to kill their brethren are my favorite target for both verbal sparring and for killing.

And why should that ingrained lack of imagination and innovation inherently bred into each and every Space Wolf reflect differently in any other facet of their mangy existence? Every army list is as unoriginal as the last – uninspiring and unimaginative, as if each skold gothi has a virtual replica of forces to wield.

Who doesn’t expect several units of mongrels toting missile launchers to cower in the backfield and snipe at transports? Who doesn’t expect one or several hyped up gothi elevated to priest status exercising the same wyrd that they condemn their brethren for? Minimal variance to account for the inclusion of lonewolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, or vehicle spam as the personal philosophy of each dictates…but at the end of the day, it is the difference of icing on the cake, without substantive change.

And that, my subhuman mongrel pets, is the foundation of my lack of respect for the ineptitude of your murder-make. Your skjalds recite the memories of your mongrels against inferior foes. Against enemies without the advantages bred into the petri dishes of your polluted genes. Against an intelligent foe, you crumble. When your wyrd is matched against the tenacity of any of the superior lifeforms you arrogantly dismiss as Xenos, entire complements of your warriors sleep on red snow.

It is not arrogance for my race to claim superiority over yours, to dismiss your combat abilities, and cackle in glee that you remain imagined as faithful to the Emperor, when you have been the catalyst for ten thousand years of strife. It is simple fact. Space Wolves are inferior in every way. Every time these superstitious hypocrites take the field against me, my army half-sleeps its way through victory against them.

So there it is. I expect your feeble forces to quail before mine. Bowed in terror and humbled before your worst fears manifested in physical form: Dark Eldar. Are there any out there who would be willing to champion the cowed mongrel dogs and attempt to demonstrate that the puppies are *not* all cookie-cutter replicas of inferiority, and that they *do* have some fighting ability?

The whiskey challenge is Thursday night, the night before the Nova Invitational. Are there any out there whose tails won’t tuck between their legs as they flee the Maleficarum? I challenge all puppies, everywhere – prove to me that you aren’t the whimpering cowards that I know you are. Prove to me that Dark Eldar don’t drink Mjold better than the Wolves of Fenris. Instead of a whiskey challenge, we can call it the mjold challenge. Prove to me that every battle with Wolves isn’t a lesson in humiliation waiting for them.

As is stated in many of the novels I've read, you don't have to worship the emperor to receive his protection. You just have to be loyal to his cause, which is the protection of mankind.

Even the first warp-travel capable ships had Geller fields. Without it the gods of chaos would just saunter in and eat everyone. Or are the Wolves stronger than beings which not even the emperor can defeat?

Sorcery and Sources are two different words with different meanings. One does not derive from the other. And within the context of warhammer, all supernatural powers comes from the warp. There are no other sources of that kind of power. There are four major chaos gods who all manifest their powers differently, why shouldn't there be other ways to manifest them?

www.dictionary.com wrote:
priest   
–noun
1.
a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and especially to make sacrificial offerings.
2.
(in Christian use) a.
a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister.
b.
(in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.
a.
a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister.
b.
(in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.
3.
a minister of any religion.

It was douchy to behave the way Russ and his lap-dogs behaved. That was the point of my original post.

They are all psykers. That's what I'm saying. When you get to the bottom of it, there's no difference. Psykers have warp-sight, which is what gives them their power.

EDIT:

Oh, and as for me being jealous of the Space Wolf codex or appearance is just a stupid argument. I've never opened the SW codex, and if I wanted I'd use the space wolves models in my new chaos army. Even the Runes fit with the chaos ideology, since they are fully heretical under the imperial creed.

Also, something I've forgot to say is that the Wolves worship gods which are native to Fenris, and are thus clearly not loyal to the Imperium of Man.

Psychics use the power of the warp, channeled through themselves, to perform their actions

Sorcerors user the power of daemons and similar (the "tutelaries" the TS use) to power their actions

There is a big difference between the two

The rout - could you stop being insulting about others? Red Corsairs worship Chaos Undivided. End of. Yes, that means your "precious" wolves HAVE in the past fallen

Worship of ANY gods is cause for censure

SgtSixkilla wrote:
It was douchy to behave the way Russ and his lap-dogs behaved. That was the point of my original post.

Maybe read Prospero Burns. Russ and boys had good reasons for Prospero.

They are all psykers. That's what I'm saying. When you get to the bottom of it, there's no difference. Psykers have warp-sight, which is what gives them their power.

Again, PB further elaborates on the difference between psykers and sorcerers. Psykers use innate powers to channel the warp. Sorcerers make deals with beings in the warp. Big difference and the Big E sees a big difference there as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Psychics use the power of the warp, channeled through themselves, to perform their actions
Sorcerors user the power of daemons and similar (the "tutelaries" the TS use) to power their actions
There is a big difference between the two

pretre wrote:

sgtsixkilla wrote:
They are all psykers. That's what I'm saying. When you get to the bottom of it, there's no difference. Psykers have warp-sight, which is what gives them their power.

Again, PB further elaborates on the difference between psykers and sorcerers. Psykers use innate powers to channel the warp. Sorcerers make deals with beings in the warp. Big difference and the Big E sees a big difference there as well.

There's no difference. The daemons you guys talk about are warp creatures. And also, it's so clearly stated in A Thousand Sons that the Thousand Sons HAVE innate genetic pre-dispositon for channeling the warp. You can't tell me that's not the exact same thing. The very reason the Thousand Sons have warp powers is because of their gene-seed, it's stated so many times it borders on annoying.

pretre wrote:

SgtSixkilla wrote:
It was douchy to behave the way Russ and his lap-dogs behaved. That was the point of my original post.

Maybe read Prospero Burns. Russ and boys had good reasons for Prospero.

Again, it's not because they're mean to the the Thousand Sons that I think they're a-holes. I'd have felt the exact same way no matter which faction they'd have done it to, because it's their actions that are douchy. They are hypocritical because their Priests are psykers, and they're dickish because the Thousand Sons were they're brothers, and they're stupid because they haven't read tsun tzu's art of war, or whatever is the Warhammer equivalent. Tsun Tzu syas "Plans seldom survive the first encounter with the enemy." Something the Wolves are obviously oblivious to, since they stick to their plans NO MATTER WHAT happens. Which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Psychics use the power of the warp, channeled through themselves, to perform their actions

Sorcerors user the power of daemons and similar (the "tutelaries" the TS use) to power their actions

There is a big difference between the two

pretre wrote:
Again, PB further elaborates on the difference between psykers and sorcerers. Psykers use innate powers to channel the warp. Sorcerers make deals with beings in the warp. Big difference and the Big E sees a big difference there as well.

The difference is that Sorcerers make bargains to further their power, the power still comes from the same place. Sorcerers start off as Librarians but it's the taste of the fathomless power of the warp that tips them over.

Not all the Thousand Sons had Tutelaries yet they still could use their powers. The Tutelaries were a way to expand on what they already had. But the Tutelaries only stuck around as the Thousand Sons were either an eventual snack or way into real world.

Dashofpepper wrote:I honestly believe that Space Wolves are traitors to the Imperium, and solely responsible for the civil war, the loss of legions, and the Emperor's Death.

Umm Citation Needed? Soley responsible for the Heresy, the legions turning to chaos and the Emperor's Death. Laying it on a little thick here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SgtSixkilla wrote:
There's no difference. The daemons you guys talk about are warp creatures. And also, it's so clearly stated in A Thousand Sons that the Thousand Sons HAVE innate genetic pre-dispositon for channeling the warp. You can't tell me that's not the exact same thing. The very reason the Thousand Sons have warp powers is because of their gene-seed, it's stated so many times it borders on annoying.

Things that live in the warp ARE daemons. That's kind of the point. Psykers aren't sorcerers. Sorcerers are folks who make pacts with Chaos and Daemons. You do know that Magnus made a pact with Tzeentch to save his sons BEFORE the Heresy, right?

pretre wrote:Again, it's not because they're mean to the the Thousand Sons that I think they're a-holes. I'd have felt the exact same way no matter which faction they'd have done it to, because it's their actions that are douchy. They are hypocritical because their Priests are psykers, and they're dickish because the Thousand Sons were they're brothers, and they're stupid because they haven't read tsun tzu's art of war, or whatever is the Warhammer equivalent. Tsun Tzu syas "Plans seldom survive the first encounter with the enemy." Something the Wolves are obviously oblivious to, since they stick to their plans NO MATTER WHAT happens. Which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Again, go to the passages on Nikaea. None of the librarians there said that they weren't psykers. They said they weren't sorcerors. Seriously. The Big E called Nikea because Magnus and his boys refused to use safe psykeryTo prevent that from spreading, the Big E banned librarians across the board. Basically, Magnus spoiled it for everyone else. Then after being expressly told to not do it, he not only did it, but busted up the Big E's plan because of something he was told by warp entities (again sorcery). Even if it was right, he played right into their hands by warning E and ruining his project. It is pretty clear in the books that the Warp Gods wanted this and M played right into their hands because he didn't listen to E. The best intentions; The worst results.

As for the Art of War, give of an example of when the wolves have failed to adapt to changing battlefield conditions like you say. There's a difference between following through on orders and having battlefield inflexibility.

A lot of people are toting around the difference between sorcery and regular psykers to try and justify the SWs viewpoint. The simple fact of the matter is that at the council of Nikea, it was plainly obvious that they were not drawing that difference. They were calling ALL psykers evil. They were blaming ALL psykers for basically everything wrong in the universe(reminded me of an old fashioned witch trial actually). After the council, all psykers except those absolutely required(such as the navigators), were banned. Librarians and "sorcerers" alike. Despite this, the SWs continued to use their Rune Priests, because they were "different" and claimed they didn't draw their powers from the warp(which they did).

pretre wrote:
Again, go to the passages on Nikaea. None of the librarians there said that they weren't psykers. They said they weren't sorcerors. Seriously. The Big E called Nikea because Magnus and his boys refused to use safe psykeryTo prevent that from spreading, the Big E banned librarians across the board. Basically, Magnus spoiled it for everyone else.

I kind of agree with you here

True - Magnus did ruin it for everyone, but it wasn't solely his fault. Psychic powers were used flippantly, without the consequences fully thought out. The Librarius was only a fledgling thing and was still learning - if the truth was realised sooner then it might have been allowed to continue. But Magnus blatant arrogance and the other psykers saying that it is only a weapon is what made the Emperors decree. He alone knows the full dangers of the warp, it's not a place to take a dip in unless your wearing the proper protection.

Sorcerors or psykers, it's down to interpretation. Rune Priests are neither conveniently

SgtSixkilla wrote:Again, it's not because they're mean to the the Thousand Sons that I think they're a-holes.

Sorry, but I don't believe you there.

Take it easy , but IMHO, your statements are clearly influenced by your reading of Thousand Sons. Simply because you made references to this book a couple of times, that your dislike for the SW seem to grow with time (I guess it's because you're going further in your reading of Thousand Sons) and that most of your arguments against the SW are quite similar to those employed by the TS in McNeill's book.
As other users of this forum, I suggest that you restrain your righteous fury against the SW and put aside your opinions on this legion until you get a chance of reading Propero Burns. Because just as other users of this forum, I was pretty much in the same state of mind about the wolves until I read the second book and was able to make a more objective opinion on this situation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Purplefood, et al:

I'm not sure that it really is a "change" to Nikaea in the books.

Thnk about it - the HH books are the first "as it happened" accounts, with no historical changes over 10k years. All other accounts of Nikaea are post Heresy - when the IoM would need to justify the continued use of Libbies, but without seeming to contradict the Emperors divine word.

So they changed it: no Sorcery, but psychics are allowed.

It's an interesting idea....

I remember reading that a contingent of psykers made the case that psychic powers were like any other natural talent and shouldn't be excluded but instead embraced and trained. They also said that sorcery could be used by an unskilled individual to gain power and therefore was more corrupting.

See my quotes above. The 'new' Nikaea is NO psychic powers because of what Magnus did.

Basically, because some delved too deep, no one gets to use them anymore.

Notice the Emperor and Mortarion's words. He is talking about folks who couldn't just use their powers for good, but kept going. That's the difference between Sorcery and Psykery. Psykery is a tool to help the Imperium. Sorcery is a tool to help yourself and gain personal knowledge/power.

Yeah i can read thanks.
I meant that in the old version from before the horus heresy books.

I like how the OP says that he thinks the SW are stupid for being stubborn, but he stubbornly holds his own position on SW regardless.

SgtSixkilla wrote:
Also, something I've forgot to say is that the Wolves worship gods which are native to Fenris, and are thus clearly not loyal to the Imperium of Man.

If by native gods of Fenris you mean Morkai, the Sunwolf, the Firewolf, et al as I assume you do; they are supernatural beings very much opposed to the survival and good fortune of the men of Fenris, certainly not gods to be worshipped.

They worship the gods of fenris to apparently uppease them much like chaos worshipers do for their gods.

Sorry for the flaming guys i just get angry with all the SW hate, seems a bit tedious to be honest but everyones entitled to their opinion. And why would the SW stop persecuting the TS? They were ordered to do so by the big E and regardless of anything they are incredibly loyal.

And just a theory here but have you thought that maybe the E allowed the wolves to keep rune priests? Gulliman never threatens the wolves for not making chapters but he does fire on the IF, is it possible the E allows the SW free rein with the RPs, tactic, homicidal tendencies and legion size simply because he needs a uber loyal power house? he does after all let them get away with alot and he gave them extra senses over the other legions as well as the wulfen which i know makes them tougher. (an aspirant gains 80 percent muscle and bone mass after drinkin from the cup of the wulfen and then they get everythin standard SMs get)

Anyhoo i digress, basically do the SW get away with everything because the E needs them to be the toughest and meanest no matter what so hes always got an ace in hole?

even the 40k wolves get away with everything there must be a reason.

"It takes a lot of self control to be that dangerous"

Who dragged Magnus before the Council of Nikaea?

Moritarian (a traitor primarch) and Russ.

It was made clear in the early HH books that the only Primarch that he worried would be able to stop his Heresy (and warn the Emperor) was Magnus the Red. Horus obviously then schemed with the Death Guard and Space Wolves to have Magnus dragged before the council, knowing that Magnus would use his psychic powers to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.

When Magnus did use his psychic powers, in violation of Nikaea, the Emperor dispatched Russ to retrieve Magnus. But instead, Russ went first to Horus, where he received different orders.

Horus therefore conspired with Russ (who was either an innocent, albeit stupid, accomplice or an active collaborator) to eliminate Magnus from Horus' plot to overcome the Emperor.

The only question is, why did the Emperor accept Russ' loyalty? Russ had already driven Magnus (the son who the Emperor was in contact with for the longest time) over to Chaos and violated a direct order from the Emperor. Russ also continued to flaunt the ruling of Nikaea by employing psykers. Finally, Russ continued to tolerate the mutations in his legion, allowing the chaos spawned horrors to serve alongside true Astartes.

I think the reason the Emperor kept Russ was because he needed the extra bodies. At the time, the Chaos Legions were rampaging across his Empire, and he needed help preserving it. He simply couldn't let another legion turn, whatever the cost.

The reason Russ stayed Loyal is far more interesting. Obviously he got a better deal with the Emperor than offered by Chaos, but what could it have been?

biccat wrote:It was made clear in the early HH books that the only Primarch that he worried would be able to stop his Heresy (and warn the Emperor) was Magnus the Red. Horus obviously then schemed with the Death Guard and Space Wolves to have Magnus dragged before the council, knowing that Magnus would use his psychic powers to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.

Pure speculation. We have proof that Horus tricked Russ into attacking Propero, but we are never told that he schemed with Mortarion and the Wolf to bring magnus to the trial. It is more likely that he had no influence over the council and simply took advantage of the situation.

biccat wrote:The reason Russ stayed Loyal is far more interesting. Obviously he got a better deal with the Emperor than offered by Chaos, but what could it have been?

Russ was simply loyal to the Emperor. Just as Magnus. It is said time and time again in the fluff. Russ was no Chaos worshiper. You are stating that Russ and the SW are renegades (in complete contradiction with the W40K cannon) simply because of their overall scary appearance and culture and because you don't like this legion. In other words, this is a completely subjective point of view without any support from the official fluff.

I hear it said many times that the Space Wolves are Space Vikings. Anyone who knows something of history knows that this is ridiculous. Like umm, long beards and horned helmets...

Viking was more of an occupation than a culture. Not all Norse were or went "viking".

The Wolves resemble the "Norse in space" as they have affected similarities. To me, the Space Wolves are more accurately Norse Berserkers in Space. Or, Were-Wolves in space.... take your pick.

I think it's unfair to classify them as stubbornly obtuse. There have been a few insights into their chapter which may indicate that they cultivate this view in order to manipulate those around them into a false sense of security.

Russ is, in fact, a Primarch. Behind the raucous affectation lies a brilliant and schrewd individual. One who loves his emperor father and may see, rivalries aside, like Guilliam, that there is more to the "Imperial Truth" than even they can understand.

I like the Space Wolves far more after reading the Heresy than I did while just reading the Codex, or playing against them on the gaming table.

Space Wolves are based on pop culture's depiction of vikings, so horned helmets and long beards. It is unreasonable to expect your consumers, or anyone really, to know anything about history especially nordic history. When making an army around real world cultures I don't think they have a history major in the board room going "actually vikings were blah blah blah". They probably ask "what seems viking to you?" And people expectedy write "horned helmets", "raiding", and "beards" on the whiteboard.

Laodamia wrote:Russ was simply loyal to the Emperor. Just as Magnus. It is said time and time again in the fluff. Russ was no Chaos worshiper. You are stating that Russ and the SW are renegades (in complete contradiction with the W40K cannon) simply because of their overall scary appearance and culture and because you don't like this legion. In other words, this is a completely subjective point of view without any support from the official fluff.

Renegades don't have to be chaos worshippers. There are plenty of renegade human forces, even Astartes.

Russ turned on a brother Primarch, probably the only one who could have stopped the Heresy, at the behest of the leader of the Traitor Legions.

Because of his attack on Prospero, Magnus believed that the Emperor had turned on him.

Russ employed psykers after the Council at Nikaea specifically prohibited such actions. Magnus prohibited the use of any sorcery after Nikaea, except the one situation where he had to warn the Emperor, and the warp was in such flux that normal astropaths couldn't send a message.

Russ tolerates mutants in his Legion. Magnus didn't tolerate mutants in his Legion, and went to great lengths to keep his legion free of mutants.

Magnus didn't want his followers to worship false gods, Russ encouraged and tolerated the worship of the Gods of Fenris.

I don't dislike the SW because of their appearance, or because of their culture, or because I don't like the legion (tautology?). I dislike the Space Wolves because they were obviously a traitor legion who drove the Thousand Sons to Chaos. Despite their heresy and chaotic structure, they're allowed to continue to serve the IoM, without any penance to the Emperor.

Finally, they're thugs, and I don't like thugs. Even the SMurfs, despite their many (MANY) failings, fight with honor. The SW are sneaky underhanded gits.

The SW are simply "ruthless" and their tolerated because of their combat record and their lyalty. Their main strength is their willingness to do anything to win, they killed the TH before knowing they were being played. What is your issue? their pure astartes, murderes without consciense as the E intended.

Their not traitors, they were misled like everyone else, stop using the fluff to justify statements and the ignoring other fluf to strengthen your point. They were misled but essentially loyal and their murderous streak is used for the good of the IoM for the most part.

asimo77 wrote:Space Wolves are based on pop culture's depiction of vikings, so horned helmets and long beards. It is unreasonable to expect your consumers, or anyone really, to know anything about history especially nordic history. When making an army around real world cultures I don't think they have a history major in the board room going "actually vikings were blah blah blah". They probably ask "what seems viking to you?" And people expectedy write "horned helmets", "raiding", and "beards" on the whiteboard.

I merely offered edification of the term viking (admittedly tinged with sarcasm) so often used in the descriptions of the Space Wolves. Norse Berserkers in space is far more interesting I think than a Space Viking (and more meaningful). Vikings in space might be appropriate for the gaming table, but not for the books as it make no sense.

My view is based on the Space Wolves of the books (especially the Heresy since that has been brought up) and not what might be viewed by the casual observer walking through a hobby store. In other words, "the game" space wolves. As with all Space Marines the game can't equal the fluff. Call the game 40k "lite". Anyone interested in the reflection of the game Wolves in the books might find what I mentioned interesting.

biccat wrote:I don't dislike the SW because of their appearance, or because of their culture, or because I don't like the legion (tautology?).

Not what I said. Read yourself, your point doesn't make any sense. I never tried to argue that "you don't the SW because you don't like the SW".

My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, your arguments are severely subjective and lack support from quotes or any official fluff.

One of your point is that the SW continued using libbies after Nikea, and can be thus described as hypocrites. I agree with this point, but every other legion owning librarians did the same. I consider Nikea as one of the great inconsistencies in the W40K fluff, since the Emperor made a clear and irrevocable point on the use of libbies, but every sigle legion seemed to simply ignore his decision (go figure).

Another of your argument is that the wolves worship their own gods, on the contrary of the sons who tried to resist the influence of the Chaos Gods. But the Emperor never tried to sanction the wolves for their religion. I don't understand why some people point out at the wolves' beliefs to argue they're renegades. And IMO, worshiping your own traditional deities is far better than ending up following the Chaos Gods, even if you tried to resist the influence of the Ruinous powers for some time.

Finally, one of your final point I would like to answer is that Magnus, the only one capable of stopping the HH, was attacked by Russ. here is a quote you might like to read:

Horus wrote:Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat.

Which explains why Horus tricked Russ (it was not his decision to attack Prospero) into attacking Magnus. He wanted to remove two major threats to his plans by setting them up against each other.

This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.

Simo429 wrote:This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.

Well the Prospero event was pretty significant. While you may be over the events that transpired there, I know many that are not. Just the other day while I was getting a cup of coffe at work, one of my co-workers walked up behind me and gave a soft wet leopard growl. Naturally my first instinct was to reach for my Heqa staff and unleash the power of the Great Ocean on him....but then I remembered company policy forbidding warp usage so restrained myself.

HO ho ho though when he got off work that night...bet he didn't count on a 23 eyed, 7 limb spawn waiting in his back seat. Now I have his parking place.

All i know is that everything was set up by tzeentch he played the game before magnus even made contact with the emperor and he played with the space wolves too he lured them to horus and knowing there never giving in stubborness set them upon the TS's the whole horus herasy was set up by the 4 chaos gods which i think is what people are forgetting

Planned by tze
blood for Khorne
spread of corruption for nurgle
and worshippers for slan

the only thing they couldn't control was the emperor and the final battle aboard the ship

everything else was planned and tbh there are not traitor legions just the ones that were always going to be drawn in for a certain purpose in the great plan of things.



(on a side note wolves were never traitors they needed to be pure to "judge" prospero and they could never turn chaos afterwords as then they had been decived and their stubborness prevented it)


Ofcourse all of this changes after the HH as thats when all future plans went up in smoke with horus now its just the period of Chaos within Chaos and them squabbling with each other but also semi- united trying to grab what they can of the material plain

(thousand sons never used daemons btw they used psychic avatars to guide them they are aspects of self almost like a spirit guide and no connection of corruption.)

Laodamia wrote:My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, your arguments are severely subjective and lack support from quotes or any official fluff.

By golly, you're right! My dislike of the Space Wolves is completely due to an irrational reading of the fluff and didn't involve connecting the dots between a traitor legion and a legion supporting the traitors as either a mindless stooge or a willing accomplace!

Time to burn my evil Thousand Sons army and invest in some missile launchers and razorspam.

I might even buy myself a fursuit so I can further show my opponents how awesome Space Wolves are!

(Yes, this really happened. Seriously. Well, the last one. Probably the part about ML and razorspam too.)