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Im offended by puppy love and being accused of fanboyism because i like the wolves warts and all like all SM fans regardless of their short fallings, everyone made mistakes during the HH and yet you make out that the SWs were somehow the worst, in essence it was all Erebus's fault anyway....

the rout wrote:Im offended by puppy love and being accused of fanboyism because i like the wolves warts and all like all SM fans regardless of their short fallings, everyone made mistakes during the HH and yet you make out that the SWs were somehow the worst, in essence it was all Erebus's fault anyway....

(I'm making a concerted effort to stay respectful. Note that.)

Re-read my post. Not once did I do anything but state fiction-supported facts. Not once did I state that the Space Wolves made the most mistakes.

Any my puppy love comment seemed witty and humorous (note the pun). It fits. Don't let the fact that you feel your Chapter is being threatened make you feel the need to put words in my mouth and then insult me for them. Once again, as Age said, remember that this is all fiction. This is all about a made-up universe revolving around plastic figures made by a company bent on taking all my money.

Please. Relax. Get this thread back to conversation levels and out of the argument range.

Thanks for the clarification. Not sure that was apparent from any of your prior posts.

Your right, i apologise, i just always assume wolf hate and add context to things that dont exist. Plus im quite argumentitive in general as you can probably tell lol.

Im so gonna get another warning lol and i genuinely dont mean to be flamey i guess im just a bit... zealous shall we say, im not actually angry btw just empassioned about my view, the internet is notorious for losing inflection in translation i guess.

Modquisition on. Everyone quit the snide comments or slanted attacks. Now.

Thanks, Frazz!

Ever notice your dread is left-handed?

@ pretre, those are some great points mate. It's good to see someone backing up with pg numbers as well.

You've given me quite a bit to ponder, also I'll have to read all these BL books that I havn't gotten round to yet.

So as Thousand Sons-centric as "A Thousand Sons" point of view is, is it the same for "Prospero Burns"? I've read "A Thousand Sons", and own "Prospero Burns" (it will be read right when I finish "Inquisition War"). So can I expect a re-telling of the same events, but through the Space Wolves perception?

-Cypher- wrote:So as Thousand Sons-centric as "A Thousand Sons" point of view is, is it the same for "Prospero Burns"? I've read "A Thousand Sons", and own "Prospero Burns" (it will be read right when I finish "Inquisition War"). So can I expect a re-telling of the same events, but through the Space Wolves perception?

More or less.
Though oddly enough for a novel entitled Prospero Burns there is surprisingly little burning of Prospero...
Also thank you for raising the point that you did...
I was wondering about it but couldn't phrase it in any respectful way.

-Cypher- wrote:So as Thousand Sons-centric as "A Thousand Sons" point of view is, is it the same for "Prospero Burns"? I've read "A Thousand Sons", and own "Prospero Burns" (it will be read right when I finish "Inquisition War"). So can I expect a re-telling of the same events, but through the Space Wolves perception?

I haven't started it for I'm still at Fulgrim, but a friend just read it and told me on msn when he was in the process of reading:

Spoiler:

"I'm through half of the book allready. Prospero isn't burning, but it gives a lot of background on Fenrisian culture.

Hurm, I've got ninja'ed xD

pretre wrote:
Notice the Emperor and Mortarion's words. He is talking about folks who couldn't just use their powers for good, but kept going. That's the difference between Sorcery and Psykery.

Weird how the official, GW sanctioned novels describes witches, sorcerers and chaos worshipers as psykers.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I like how the OP says that he thinks the SW are stupid for being stubborn, but he stubbornly holds his own position on SW regardless.

There's a reason for that. All the arguments put forward in this thread have reinforced my preconceptions of the space wolves, not weakened them.

Laodamia wrote:
My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, ....

I realize this wasn't aimed at me, but like I said in the OP, my opinion of the SW previous to reading A Thousand Sons was a positive one and I seriously considered starting a Space Wolves army.

So read Prospero Burns and find your opinion neutralized.


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Or brought into equilibrium rather.


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Also, all sorcerers are psykers, but not all psykers are sorcerers. Hence your confusion.

I don't think A Thousand Sons is biased toward the Thousand Sons. It's clear from the first time "we see" Magnus the Red (when he comes out of the cave in the Mountain on Aghoru), that he's a bad dude. The whole reason why the author put Lemuel on the Mountain to witness Magnus the Red emerging from the cave is to show this. Everything else that happens there from the viewpoint of Lemuel could have been described in the Thousand Sons camp. Most of the Thousand Sons captains are also stuck up, arrogant, show offs. In fact, the only redeeming feature of the Thousand Sons I've read as of now (in A Thousand Sons) is Ahriman and his bud Ulthizzar or whatever his name is.


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pretre wrote:So read Prospero Burns and find your opinion neutralized.


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Or brought into equilibrium rather.

That might happen, but I doubt it.

pretre wrote:
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Also, all sorcerers are psykers, but not all psykers are sorcerers. Hence your confusion.

That's the most sense I've heard from a Space Wolf advocate all this thread, but what you're saying is that psykers and sorcerers gain their power from the same place. The exact thing most of the SW supporters argue against.

I don't...
Rune Priests are quite blatantly psykers who channels their power through non-traditional means.
They get their power from the same place and it can do the same things.
Yes it was hypocritical of them to attack the Tsons for it but they were ordered to by Horus/Emperor so what they thought didn't really enter into it.
Many other legions still had librarians (or equivalents) so the council of Nikea was more of a bitch slap to sorcery which only really affected the Tsons and Magnus.

purplefood wrote:I don't...
Yes it was hypocritical of them to attack the Tsons for it but they were ordered to by Horus/Emperor so what they thought didn't really enter into it.

That's my reason for thinking they're stupid and unthinking. I'll repeat something I said in a previous post in case you didn't catch it, like Tsun Tzu says "Plans seldom survive first encounter with the enemy." Which means you have to be flexible, you always have to take new information into account and always re-evaluate the situation based on its evolution, which the Space Wolves doesn't do in the slightest. Rigidity is a bad tactic in every single situation.

They do flexible tactics just not the reasons why they should be fighting in the first place.
As i said in a previous post, it is a flaw and one that is evident even in their current codex.

What new informatuin are you reffering to? ive read no valid reason why the SW would stop there censure of the TS, they were ordered to do it and they did it... whyw ould they change their minds?

They should have realised when the TSons didn't start shooting straight away that there was something not on the up and up.
In any case Russ should have contacted the Emperor for direct confirmation, no matter Horus' standing the death of an entire legion is a very serious thing.

Remember Russ was under the impression that Kasper was a spy for Magnus and was attempting to use him to communicate with his brother in order to avoid blood shed. But things weren't as he had suspected, both sides had been tricked.

Russ' belief that he could reach his brother through Kasper was according to the information they had a valid belief. It just didn't work out that way, exactly as had been planed.

-Cypher- wrote:Any my puppy love comment seemed witty and humorous (note the pun).

To be fair, the terms "puppy love", "space puppies" or "fanboyism" are intentionally offensive and are meant to mock the person these words are destined. I perfectly understand that it was not your intention to do so , but your words have their own meanings, especially on an online forum where understanding the author's attitude is quite delicate. This is why I always try to avoid these ambiguous phrases.

Back on topic, I agree with purple's last post. One of Russ' great mistakes was not to report to the emperor for confirmation of Horus' directives. Especially on such a grave matter as the destruction of an entire Legion. I take it as a proof of the stubbornness and (occasional) stupidity of Russ and (by extension) the SW. I guess they played the role of the stupid barbarians too much and actually started to behave like ones.
This is not the only example of a grave misjudgment by the wolves. Even in "Prospero Burns", which was supposed to convey a great image of the wolves, I found various grave errors made by this legion.

the rout wrote:What new informatuin are you reffering to? ive read no valid reason why the SW would stop there censure of the TS, they were ordered to do it and they did it... whyw ould they change their minds?

Either you are not reading my posts, or you do not understand the words that are in them. "Being ordered to" is not a valid reason to stop thinking. The only reason they needed to use their tiny little brains was that killing his BROTHER and dooming an entire legion is not something to take lightly, which Russ obviously did, since he didn't question it in the slightest. It's repeated over and over throughout the Horus Heresy series that fratricide is one of the greatest crimes an Astartes warrior can perpetrate.

purplefood wrote:They should have realised when the TSons didn't start shooting straight away that there was something not on the up and up.
In any case Russ should have contacted the Emperor for direct confirmation, no matter Horus' standing the death of an entire legion is a very serious thing.

Thank you for giving an exact example.

Umm. Did you read Prospero Burns?

SgtSixkilla wrote:

the rout wrote:What new informatuin are you reffering to? ive read no valid reason why the SW would stop there censure of the TS, they were ordered to do it and they did it... whyw ould they change their minds?

Either you are not reading my posts, or you do not understand the words that are in them. "Being ordered to" is not a valid reason to stop thinking. The only reason they needed to use their tiny little brains was that killing his BROTHER and dooming an entire legion is not something to take lightly, which Russ obviously did, since he didn't question it in the slightest. It's repeated over and over throughout the Horus Heresy series that fratricide is one of the greatest crimes an Astartes warrior can perpetrate.

purplefood wrote:They should have realised when the TSons didn't start shooting straight away that there was something not on the up and up.
In any case Russ should have contacted the Emperor for direct confirmation, no matter Horus' standing the death of an entire legion is a very serious thing.

Thank you for giving an exact example.

You aren't understanding that as far as Russ knew he was giving Magnus a chance to surrender before unleashing his Legion upon them, when no reply came from his brother it was decided that he had no other choice. And where exactly does it say that Russ was simply ordered to bring Magnus in? I don't recall reading that anywhere. So as far as we know his orders were vague or passed onto him from the Emperor through Horus, considering Horus was the Warmaster. Considering that Russ knew first hand what happened when you questioned certain orders he knew full well that this would be one of the ones that you follow. After all its hinted that the Unknown Legions were censored for not following their orders and Magnus failed to follow orders which is what lead to his censorship.

Why would he question it? the E gave Horus the Title Warmaster and the free rein to order the other primarchs around, why would Russ question this? As far as Russ was concerned Horus's will and the Emperors will were one and the same, if your an employee at say mcdonalds and you assistant manager says stop making burgers would you go ask the manager to confirm? I dont think you would, and Magnus not firing wasnt weird, Tizca had no friggin guns! firing non existant guns would have been reall weird.

Your saying hes stupid for not questioning the authority the E told him to follow, plus since sending messages through the warp was extremely difficult at this point in the time line do you really think Russ travelling all the way to terra to say "daddy are you sure about this?" would have sensible or even a viable option?

It was a mistake in hindsight but if you really think about it how could Russ have known to do anything differently?

Orders are orders and Russ was nothing if not thorough.

It isn't just hinted. It is strongly indicated that the Wolves were unleashed on the other two or at least their primarchs already.


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In PB, the orders came from the Emperor. Not from Horus. Read the subtext of P333 and 334. Horus wouldn't have told Russ that Magnus was warning him that he was a traitor.

All I see on those pages is Hawser talking with Valdor, Fulgrim and Russ about a mans character and grooming people to be spies.


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Horus would have told Russ that Magnus had broken the edict of Nikea. Still though if the orders came from the Emperor and PB doesn't have Horus appear and inform Russ of what to do than wouldn't that suggest Russ was following his Father's instructions?

Seriously... Sigh



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And yes, those passages have no Horus instructions. So it is pretty clear that Russ is following his father. I excerpted it in the spoiler.

Again you are quoting the wrong pages, pages 333 and 334 take place during the Council.

Not in my copy. It's the last 2 pages before Part Three: Account starts.

In my copy nothing is mentioned on those pages, but a conversation with Valdor, Fulgrim and Russ.



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In my copy that conversation is page 387-389.