Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I wanted to take a crack at some rules to fix the Adepta Sororitas Canoness HQ choice to make it a little more appealing. I know that Special Characters are all the rage these days, but even compared to other generics, point for point the Canoness sort of...well... sucks.

For exaample, let's compare the Canoness to a Chaos Lord. You could argue that from a fluff standpoint Canonesses aren't supposed to be as good as Chaos Lord's, and I'm not saying they are. GW is, because GW gave them the exact same points cost. This is also a good comparison because they both start off with the exact same wargear. So here's how they stack up:

For the same amount of points, the Chaos Lord has +1 to WS, S, T, and I. The Chaos Lord is also Fearless while the Canoness is Stubborn.
What does the Canoness get to make up for this obvious gap in ability? A 6+ invul save , the ability to give hatred to her and her unit for a turn (provided you don't roll an 11 or 12 on the Ld test), and granting her squad the ability to pass all Ld tests on the turn she dies ( at least they're being realistic about her chances of surviving if she tries to make herself useful).
Of course, the Chaos Lord also gets to roll on the Chaos boon table, while the Canoness gets way fewer upgrade options.

If you still need convincing, I can give a few more HQ comparisons.

Also, there's the problem of how she fits in the army. She seems designed to moderately boost the CC of an army whose CC is mediocre at best. Against anything that's not IG or Tau, that's not gonna go well.

So what to do to make the Canoness more appealing? I've come up with a couple ideas.

The first is the easiest. Keep the Canoness the same, but bump her cost down to 45 pts. If your gonna make a cheap knockoff of a Space Marine character that's not as good at anything and can't really be upgraded properly, the price tag has to be cheap enough to justify taking it.

The second option is to keep the points cost and statline the same, but add the following rules and upgrades:

The Paragon: A Canoness always counts as being equipped with a Simulcrum Imperialis.
Smite the Heretic: Against Montrous Creatures and Independent Characters (and ONLY MCs or ICs), a Canoness may choose to make Smash attacks instead of her regular attacks. This gives halves her attacks (rounded up) and resolves hits at double strength and AP 2.

A Canoness may take Artificer Armour for +20 pts.

I think these are a flavorful improvement without being overpowered.

Champion of Chaos is usually a drawback more than a boon.

Barebones the difference is not that great. Noticeable, but not great.

Comparing a Juggerlord or something to a Canoness makes it clear it all is a joke. Of course, the Juggerlord should grind the Canoness to dust, but she should be much cheaper.

Drop her points cost and bammm, fine HQ.

After that, you just need to fix the shooting edition.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Champion of Chaos is usually a drawback more than a boon.

I firmly disagree. Of the 35 possible rolls, 5 do nothing, 2 are horrible (spawnhood), 2 could be good or bad depending on whether you've kitted out your Lord or not (dark apotheosis), and 21 give things like +1 S, +1 W, Eternal Warrior, and Fleshbane. I doubt most people think getting +1 S or Eternal Warrior for free is a drawback. You may have had rotten luck rolling on the table, but that doesn't mean the odds aren't heavily in favor of something good happening.

You are only looking at parts of it.

You are also forced to challenge and accept challenges, which is extremely bad for you as it allows your Aspiring Champions and characters to be singled out without you being able to prevent it by declining. Take a squad of CSM and a Chaos Lord in melee with a Flyrant. If they had been Tacticals with a Captain, they could simply have declined the inevitable challenge, had their Captain chosen, and then the rest could at least throw Kraks at it (Maybe they even have a Sergeant with a power fist!) The CSM, on the other hand, must sacrifice the Lord and Aspiring Champion to the Flyrant first before any of them even get to strike...

This disadvantage is much greater than the advantage of the Boons, who often come too late to have any real effect anyway.

I remember that time when I rolled Dark Apotheosis on my Cultist Champion who killed a Guardsmen Sergeant, but for every time that happens, your Juggerlord turns into a Spawn, and your Chaos Terminator Champions recieve +1 sv, or your Biker Champion gets Hammer of Wrath.

Better comparison: Saint Celestine. For 135 points, she's more durable than a Canoness can possibly be, has greater damage output and better stats by a lot, greater mobility, and all she loses is a chance at a one-use Hatred and the extra bonus if she dies.
In order to get a Canoness to damage levels rivalling Celestine, you have to spend 170+ points. Even then, the Canonness can never get 2+ armor or a Jump Pack. Hatred once is no exchange for all that.

The only reason to take a Canonness is for a Command Squad. Which is also awful.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Better comparison: Saint Celestine. For 135 points, she's more durable than a Canoness can possibly be, has greater damage output and better stats by a lot, greater mobility, and all she loses is a chance at a one-use Hatred and the extra bonus if she dies.
In order to get a Canoness to damage levels rivalling Celestine, you have to spend 170+ points. Even then, the Canonness can never get 2+ armor or a Jump Pack. Hatred once is no exchange for all that.

The only reason to take a Canonness is for a Command Squad. Which is also awful.

Agreed on every count. Also, Celestine has Martyrdom. She only doesn't get it if she comes back to life with three wounds using her act of faith, which I think is a plenty fair trade.

The Canoness should be cheaper at base, and have options to take Artificer Armour and a Jump Pack. As far as the awfulness of Celestines, they also need some kind of overhaul, but I haven't thought of a way to do it.

I actually forgot about the whole "has to accept a challenge" thing for Chaos Champions. I guess I can see how that would suck, although I think it's somewhat avoidable by picking your fights wisely. The thing that really puts a Chaos Lord ahead of a Canoness though is options. Chaos Lords can take Terminator armour, jump packs, and a whole laundry list of marks, weapons, wargear, steeds, etc. You can kit them out to excel at practically any job. The Canoness? I'm not sure if she can currently be kitted out do excel at ANY job...
'

Check out the Codex in my Signature.

My solution was to drop the Canoness 10 points and give her A4, make Acts of faith more useful and give her more options including being able to take a jump pack.

Why should she have four attacks?

Drop the pointscost instead.

I agree that a Chaos Lord is better. He should be stronger, but also more expensive.

I got some good feedback on some proposed improvements to the Canoness in this thread. The starting point there was the current Codex, so no re-costing or re-statting of what arguably is an overpriced model, but we came up with lots of options, from jump packs to alternative Acts of Faith to a unique high-powered Relic for each of the six Major Orders Militant.

SisterSydney... Your Canonness has some broken combos. She can get a 2++ Rerollable invuln in Close Combat. With appropriat gearing, she can get that for four rounds. This'd be kind of expensive, (Around 650-700 points,) but her, Uriah Jacobus, Coteaz, and a Xenos Inquisitor with ML1 and Rad/Psykotroke grenades attached to a 20-Sister blob with a Simalcrum and with 2 or more Priests attached to the unit...
Give the Canoness a Power Maul, that book with all the acts in it, artificer armor, and War Hymns.

Literally nothing will be able to survive in Close Combat against this. It's no slouch when shooting (20 Boltguns hurt), and has good survivability.

In CC on the first round (Charged or when charging) you get twenty 3++ rerollable Invulns, two 2++ Rerollables, everyone has rerolls to Hit, rerolls to Wound, +1 Strength, the enemy is at -1 Toughness as well as whatever the Psykotroke grenades roll, and the Canonness gets either 5 S6 AP2 attacks (With all of the above buffs) at I, or else 4 S10 AP2 attacks at I.

Thanks, and yeah, the book with multiple Acts of Faith needs to be toned down to "pick one." I hadn't picked up on the rerollable 2++; I presume that comes from Artificer Armour plus War Hymns -- but if so, why would that be limited to four turns? Wouldn't it be forever (and thus even more broken?) That is definitely a potential issue.

I'm not as worried about the potential Deathstar units you could build, because those are expensive, they're often vulnerable to long-range firepower, and Sisters are really not your best building blocks for a melee unit anyway.

But all potential brokenness people point out I will gratefully endeavor to fix.

Rerollable 2++ for 4 rounds of combat, because 1, War Hymns only work in CC and 2, you can only get 4 Acts of Faith per squad. (And that's assuming an ideal setup. You can replace Uriah to get more Canoness goodness, but you lose counter-attack.)
'Best building blocks' really don't matter when the Sisters are just ablative wounds. Ablative wounds who get 40 reroll-everything S4 attacks and a 3++ rerollable invuln.
On top of a fethload of at Initiative high-strength AP2 attacks. And some force weapon attacks. With rerolls on everything.

Ah, right, you need the alternative AOF that gives you an invulnerable save equal to your regular save (which I pulled straight out of Codex:Witchhunters. Then the Canoness does that Act once, the squad does it twice thanks to its simulacrum imperialis, and Jacobus gets everyone to do it one last time. Meanwhile one of your priests is singing War Hymns for the re-roll (if you're in melee). Right?

Yes, I can see how that would be borkened. Maybe copypasta of an Act from 3rd edition is a bad idea to port into a 6th edition that's rife with opportunities to re-roll.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Why should she have four attacks?

Drop the pointscost instead.

I agree that a Chaos Lord is better. He should be stronger, but also more expensive.

It's the only stat I could increase without giving her superhuman(space marine) stats.

A4 is also crazy high and there is no reason for her to have it.

Just drop the points.

I would have liked her to have a Arttifcer armour option

Whats are the rules for your Praesedium?

The Praesidium is identical to a storm shield.

She can take the Cloak of Saint Aspira which gives her a 2+ armour save, but it's a relic so only 1 per army.

The Cloak of St. Aspira doesn't give a 2+ armour save in the current codex. It makes armour saves and Shield of Faith saves rerollable. Nice, but useless against AP3 weapons. Drop a Russ Battle Cannon template on her and she's still toast. The Canoness can't currently get a 2+ armour save. That's why I think there should be an artificer armour option. Even combined with a Cloak of St. Aspira it's negated by an AP2 weapon, so I don't think it'd be an overpowered combo. Honestly, I'm thinking more and more that the best solution is to just knock her down to 45 pts and add an Artificer Armour and Jump Pack option. Heck, give all the Celestines a jump pack option. Maybe they'll be a little less useless.

Agreed given the wording that suggests that you can only have one relic - I don't use the cloak but rather the relic that gives Eternal Warrior.

Jumping Celestians. Now that's a thought. Certainly simpler than this super-Seraphim/Celestian hybrid I homebrewed (comments welcome), though less choppy -- maybe still not choppy enough.

Those Principalities look interesting. I'd have to test it before making any judgments on whether the points cost is right or not.

I agree that 4 attacks is too much for a Canoness. Why would she get more attacks than a Space Marine Captain? 4 attacks are reserved for the uber powerful or the uber fast.

Here's my take two, and I'll throw in some ideas for Celestians. I'm trying to keep it simple, because that's how I feel generic characters and infantry should be, and close to the official rules.

Canoness: Same as codex, except:

base cost: 45 pts

A Canoness may take Artificer Armour for +20 pts.
A Canoness may take a Jump Pack for +15 pts.

Celestians: Same as codex, except:

base cost: 65pts

All Celestians are armed with Sarissas.
Sarissa: Range:melee, Strength: User, AP:5



May take up to 5 additional Celestians for +13 pts each.

The entire squad may be equipped with jump packs for +3 pts per model.
Units that take a heavy weapon may not take jump packs.

Add the following special and heavy weapon options:
Plasma Gun- +15 pts
Plasma Cannon- +15pts
These will be Celestians only.

Sororitas Command Squad: Same as codex, but with the added equipment and options for Celestians above. Also:

base cost: 60 pts.

May take up to 4 additional Celestians at +13 pts each.

Neat.

You're right, Sarissas aren't in the current 'dex, nor where they in the White Dwarf micro-min-codex. Back in Witchhunters, they let you reroll to-wound in melee -- for 5 points per model. Your seem better.

I'd like the option to give every Celestian a power weapon and pack them all into an assault transport, though.

 fallinq wrote:
The Cloak of St. Aspira doesn't give a 2+ armour save in the current codex. It makes armour saves and Shield of Faith saves rerollable. Nice, but useless against AP3 weapons. Drop a Russ Battle Cannon template on her and she's still toast. The Canoness can't currently get a 2+ armour save. That's why I think there should be an artificer armour option. Even combined with a Cloak of St. Aspira it's negated by an AP2 weapon, so I don't think it'd be an overpowered combo. Honestly, I'm thinking more and more that the best solution is to just knock her down to 45 pts and add an Artificer Armour and Jump Pack option. Heck, give all the Celestines a jump pack option. Maybe they'll be a little less useless.

That combo would give her better than Terminator Armour, except against AP 2 weapons. If you threw in a Rosarius she would have a better save than Terminators against AP1 and AP2 weapons.

I wouldn't give any Sisters of Battle unit Artificer Armour because there isn't any precedent for them to have it. The only model to have a 2+ save is Celestine whose allowed to have such a ridiculous statline because of Warp Magic Extreme Faith in the Emperor. The Cloak of Saint Aspira has given units a 2+ save since Second Edition, only to be changed in the 6th edition Codex.

Also reverted Canonesses back to 3 attacks, but gave them 3 Faith Points

 SisterSydney wrote:
Neat.

You're right, Sarissas aren't in the current 'dex, nor where they in the White Dwarf micro-min-codex. Back in Witchhunters, they let you reroll to-wound in melee -- for 5 points per model. Your seem better.

I'd like the option to give every Celestian a power weapon and pack them all into an assault transport, though.

I gave Celestians power weapons and their own assault transport to ride around in my Codex.

I also gave Sarissas to everyone for 1 point per model.

Sarissa
A model armed with a Boltgun equipped with a Sarissa, may charge in the same turn they have fired a Boltgun, they may not claim the + 1 Attack gained for being armed with two Melee weapons in an assault. In the Assault the Boltgun gains the following profile:
Range.......S........AP.........Type
__________________________________
.......-........User...... -...........Melee, Two-handed

That's also a reasonable sarissa profile.

What was your assault vehicle again?

The Crucifier.

The Sarissa profile is based off the 5th edition true grit rule. It's the fluffiest thing I could come up with for Bolter bayonets.

Since every one wants a cheaper Canoness, what about a Palatine? 35 points

WS...BS..S...T...W...I....A...Ld...Sv
..4.......5...3....3..2...4...3...10....3+

Shield of Faith, Faithful(2), Stubborn, IC

No Jump Pack, but every other option the Canoness can take so can the Palatine.

Ah yes. The Palatine. I like the idea from a flavor standpoint, and giving the Sororitas another generic character whose an actual Sororita character (instead of a priest or some random squad they couldn't find a place elsewhere in the force org chart for) is nice. The big issue is how to distinguish her enough from the actual Canoness to make both of them worth the paper they're printed on. At least the Chapter Master has Orbital Bombardment to set him apart. These two are so similar you might as well just call your Canoness a Palatine and call it a day. I think that's the reason they dropped the Palatine in this edition. Which may have been fair if they hadn't overpriced the Canoness and limited her options to the point of being useless.

As far as there being no precedent for Artificer Armour, I'm not sure why there needs to be. Artificer Armour is just really fancy and high quality power armour, basically the PA equivalent of a master crafted weapon. Given that they're the top military brass of the armed wing of the holy rollin' Ecclesiarchy, I don't see why Canonesses couldn't get access to a few. And I think pretty much every army has their fair share of AP 2 weapons, so I don't think it's that rough a hurdle. Artificer Armour, Cloak of St. Aspira, and Rosarius (the invul from which is not rerollable) will cost +55 pts together and give the Canoness absolutely no offensive power beyond her base attack of 3 at S 3 (unlike Terminator armour, which comes with a PF and Storm Bolter). So if you want her to be an actual threat and not a toothless tiger, you have to spend MORE points upgrading her weapons. And as soon as a wound gets through, she's probably dead, since most AP 2 weapons are more than strong enough to insta-kill anything with T3. And if you take the Cloak of St. Aspira you're at your 1 relic limit, which means there's absolutely no way to grant her Eternal Warrior. There are it least 3 very appealing relics in this army for a Canoness with this points cost and options. If you could take all 3, you might be able to make a broken HQ, but you can't. You have to pick one.

Look at it this way: A Canoness (45 pts), with Artificer Armour (+20 pts), Cloak of St. Aspira (+20 pts), and Rosarius (+15 pts)= 100 pts
vs.
A Herald of Slaanesh (45 pts), with a Greater Aetherblade (+20 pts), and Exalted Locus of Beguilment (+35 pts)= 100 pts

Even if the Canoness's squad charged, the Herald will be going first. The Canoness can't refuse a challenge, due to Exalted Locus of Beguilment. That's four attacks at WS 7, rerollable hits on 3+, Wounds on 2+ that cause instant death, vs. a 4+ Invul save. Even if she manages to take NO wounds, and survives to strike back, the Canoness's chances of hitting and wounding twice are less than half. And the Herald gets its invul. My money's on the Herald. When you add in their respective squads it becomes even more lopsided, since the Herald's squad can absorb any Overwatch wounds, and every daemonette in the squad strikes first with rending and rerollable hits thanks to the Exalted Locus. They're gonna make mincemeat of those Battle Sisters/Celestians/whatever is with the Canoness. This is my most common loadout for my Heralds, BTW. If the Canoness is OP this way, than the Herald of Slaanesh is even MORE OP based on its official rules. But I don't think either of them are OP, because they both have obvious weaknesses for a savvy opponent to exploit.

I'm not saying that your way is "wrong" and my way is "right", just that I don't think a Canoness with these rules would be broken.

I've avoided assault vehicle rules, because once you add 'em to one army, everyone wants one, broken combos happen, and pretty soon you're doing a major rule rewrite of half the units in every single codex.

Why do all these custom characters have 'Faithful (Number)'? I have absoluetly no clue what that means.

It's based on the old rules for Acts of Faith. In the older editions, you could attempt Acts of Faith equal to the amount of faith points that the units in your army gave you. So a Faithful (3) unit produces 3 faith points. The current version streamlines this by making Acts of Faith one attempt with one act per unit, with a Simulcrum Imperialis granting a second attempt. It's simpler, but sacrifices flexibility. In the old days you could spend all your faith points on one unit if you wanted IIRC, although you couldn't stack Acts of Faith, so only one boost at a time and one attempt per turn.

Edit: Acts of Faith is a Sisters of Battle specific rule, btw. To use an Act of Faith, a unit must pass a leadership test. If passed, the unit gets some advantage, like Preferred Enemy, for a single turn.

I wouldn't give any Sisters of Battle unit Artificer Armour because there isn't any precedent for them to have it. The only model to have a 2+ save is Celestine whose allowed to have such a ridiculous statline because of Warp Magic Extreme Faith in the Emperor. The Cloak of Saint Aspira has given units a 2+ save since Second Edition, only to be changed in the 6th edition Codex.

It makes perfect sense to me - high ranking officers of the Imperium such as Astartes officers and honour guard, Inquisitors(*), Rogue Traders and the like all have Artificer armour made for them - so being made for a Cannoness seems quite likely.

It only gives the same protection as a Astartes Captain in Artifcer armour except she is only T3.

(*) although stupidly its not currently an option for them in the codex - same as no force fields which are almost standard issue)

 Mr Morden wrote:
It makes perfect sense to me - high ranking officers of the Imperium such as Astartes officers and honour guard, Inquisitors(*), Rogue Traders and the like all have Artificer armour made for them - so being made for a Cannoness seems quite likely.

Indeed. Additionally, the Sisters are working for the Ecclesiarchy, who could easily afford to have some sets of Artificer armour made. Probably lots of it, in fact.