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Principality Squad: 90 points (Elite)
Principality WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/3++
Superior WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:3 Ld:9 Sv:3+/3++

Unit Composition: 2 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior
Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Superior is Jump Infantry (character)

Wargear: power armor, storm shield, power lance, bolt pistol, frag grenades, krak grenades, jump pack

Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith, Furious Charge

Archangelic Visage: Models with this special rule re-roll all failed invulnerable saves.

Act of Faith: Hammer of Mercy: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in either player's Assault phase. If successful, all the unit's attacks gain the Shred special rule until the end of the current phase.

Options:
May add up to seven additional Principalities: 30 points per model
Any model may replace her power lance with
- a power sword: free
- an Eviscerator: 5 points
One Principality may replace her power weapon with Chirugeon's Tools: 10 points
The Principality Superior may replace her bolt pistol with
- a hand flamer: 5 pts
- an inferno pistol: 15 pts
- a plasma pistol: 15 pts
The Principality Superior may take melta bombs: 5 pts
The Principality Superior may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.


Costing:


Discussion:
I've wrestled with this idea before, but ultimately left it out of my fandex/expandex because it felt like too much of a glass hammer and seemed to make the "ordinary" Seraphim less special; you could use my 'dex to build something like this anyway with a tooled-up Sororitas Command Squad. But inspired by Melissia's idea for a Sororitas elite and the discussion of potential new Sororitas units, I decided to take another shot.

This is still a unit of 30-point models with S:3 T:3 I:3 that are supposed to go into melee, which makes me a teensy bit nervous -- though the rerollable 4++ I've added to this version should help. (By my quick math, that's better than a 3++ that's not rerollable, though still worse than a straight 2++). I suppose some provision for a jump pack Hospitaller giving them all Feel No Pain might help [EDIT: added that in]. I can't see any precedent for giving Sisters Toughness:4 or (except for characters) 2 Wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Given that, IF they get the charge and a decent AOF roll, these girls would hit on their first round with 3 Strength 5, AP:3 attacks, but still have T:3 W:1, their motto should probably be "float like a butterly, sting like a truck full of bricks, die like flies."

Edited to fix their Storm Shield save to 3++ (I'd put 4++ by mistake). Yes, that'll make a difference...

i have never seen point costing by that logic. You add 45pts of awesome upgrades but only make them cost 15pts more? the hell?

People give me gripes about reducing 2pts from marines who have no atsknf or combat squad.

Yes, it's weird, but clearly there's some discounting going on with units like Crusaders (15 ppm, come stock with a 15-pt power sword and 10-pt power shield) and Repentia (14 ppm with a 30-pt Eviscerator). What I've done is based on discussions with Ovion, who has the closest thing to a system for costing homebrew units that I've ever seen. And even at 30 ppm, I think these may still be too fragile to be a good buy.

Well with a 4+ rerollable invulnerable save you are saving 3/4s of any wounds you take and its only slightly better than a 3+ invulnerable with no reroll. So thats pretty durable.

I suggest making them 35ppm for a base cost of 105.

Other than that it looks really good.

Ok, so that's one vote for "just up the cost a little" and one vote for "go die in a fire." What do other folks think? The idea of winged Sisters descending on the infidel with sacred spear and shining shield is awfully fluffy, but I want to make sure the crunch works too.

Seems so very expensive to me. I'm really unsure...

 Melissia wrote:
Seems so very expensive to me. I'm really unsure...

What are you comparing it to?

Expensive is a relative term, and so is 'balanced'. Do you want SoB to match Wraithknight + Scatterbikes so that they will be balanced at the top tier of a tournament, or a middle pack codex like Space Marines? Or would you aim to bring it down to the 'disaster' tier like CSM and DA?

I still find myself opposed to Ovion's system, but that is because I think there are too many factors interacting with and multiplying each other to make an additive system that is going to work in practice.

I went looking for my implementation of this concept in my 6e-era fandex; mine were 40ppm, had the Heroic Intervention rule out of the 5e SM book (charge after Deep Striking, but you don't get a Shooting phase and you have to declare you're using it before you see the scatter roll), and could hit a lot harder (I just went through my Acts of Faith system to check the potential of stacking Acts and came up with three S8/AP3 attacks at I6 from each model on the charge).

Yours look much more reasonable to me; the only issue I see is a lack of any representation of the 'descent-from-above' sort of image. I'd suggest some kind of benefit on the turn they Deep Strike if they do (assault after Deep Striking has been deleted from the game, Blind after Deep Striking has precedent but it's also situational to ineffective, the Inv makes cover on landing irrelevant, snapfire at them the turn they land sounds cool but it might make them too tough...) on top of what they've already got, with no more than a minor points increase.

 Ashiraya wrote:
What are you comparing it to?

Other human T3 models.

I'm not saying it's the wrong price. Just that at first glance it feels high and I'm unsure about it.

They have a weakness, and that weakness is being shot.

They need something to help them get into melee, where it looks like they will do perfectly fine.

Tactics can probably do it. SoB have no problems with adding T 3 sv3+ target saturation. Are you shooting the principalities, or the Dominions next to your tank?

Jump Packs give them solid threat range; I see them as more of a counter-charge unit than a rush-forward-and-kill-things unit, deployed out of easy LOS to intercept things that get too close to your line.

Do SoB need a countercharge unit? They hard counter enemy melee already, no matter its type, thanks to their numerous meltas and flamers.

Only overpowered melee units like Wraithknights and Wraiths can survive through that.

Sisters do not hard counter enemy infantry if said infantry moves further than the Sisters' flamer range on the charge.

Tactics. They must come to you, so you can move (and run if needed) on your own turn to keep them at perfect range so that even with a lucky charge roll Wall of Death keeps them off.

Remember, you can measure anywhere at any time.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do SoB need a countercharge unit? They hard counter enemy melee already, no matter its type, thanks to their numerous meltas and flamers.

Only overpowered melee units like Wraithknights and Wraiths can survive through that.

Read: Tough melee units. Wraithblades, Terminators (maybe), Wraiths, any MC/Walker, anything invisible, and Howling Banshees are going to walk through Wall of Death like it's not there.

That's what they have their millions of meltaguns for, no?

The only thing I find "odd" is that hitting the unit with good AP weapons actually increases their survivability.

33% chance of failure against AP4+ weapons, but only 25% failure against AP3 and lower weapons seems odd

It's easier to simply give them 3++. As that's what a stormshield is.

Also, aren't eviscerators 25 pts?

Is there a reason the unit size starts at 3? Besides not wanting to have a extremely expensive unit base?

Where is the 4++ coming from? If they have a stormshield, they should have a 3++, and still have the 6++ for being a SoB. If you are creating a new form of shield, it should be re-named and stated out. If you are going back to the older 4++, only in CC SSs, that should be mentioned. If you are handing out rosarious to everyone, that should be mentioned.

Rank and file troops, even elite close combat ones, almost never get 3 attacks. That’s mostly a HQ thing. Even the sarge in a Vanguard Veteran squad only has 2.

Eviscerators are normally canoness/priest only? You might want to restrict that to the superior. Also, don’t they cost 30 points? Less a 15 point discount for turning in your power lance. I would also drop the ability for any sister to swap out her lance, but let the superior. You want to keep the flavor of the unit (lance and shield) but if you let them swap out the lance, widely regarded as the worst power weapon, I suspect that will happen. You gave up hit and run, which is one of the corner cases that makes lances OK.

I know unit upgrades are often very expensive. I’m looking at these gals and comparing them to VVs. We don’t get discounts for power weapons in the squad, and the sarge is the only one able to take a relic blade at 25points.

What options are on the melee and ranged weapon lists that aren’t listed individually in this unit entry? The bolters etc. she probably shouldn’t have access to.

I’d open up melta bomb access to the whole squad.

I’ve not kept up with the whole body of your homebrew, but are the Chirugeon's Tools something all your squads have access to? They seem out of place for a vanguard CC jump unit. Mechanically the FNP they grant (I assume) will make the unit very tough, but I’m not seeing it from a thematic POV. These are angels of vengeance, leave the mercy schtick to others.

Re-rollable invulns set off all sorts of red flags. When it’s just a 6++, it’s cute and kinda fun. But when you talk about 3 or 4 ups, it starts to feel abusive. If you want to boost the seraphim’s angelic visage, you might turn it into a 6” aura.

Lots of great feedback from all -- many thanks.

First off: Whoops, I did goof on the Storm Shield being 3++ ; I fixed the initial post. Thanks, Nevelon. A rerollable 3++ definitely makes them more survivable than I'd thought. Maybe enough to dispense with a FNP option. Maybe too much, even. Which brings us to....

Nevelon wrote:I I’ve not kept up with the whole body of your homebrew, but are the Chirugeon's Tools something all your squads have access to? They seem out of place for a vanguard CC jump unit. Mechanically the FNP they grant (I assume) will make the unit very tough, but I’m not seeing it from a thematic POV. These are angels of vengeance, leave the mercy schtick to others.

Re-rollable invulns set off all sorts of red flags. When it’s just a 6++, it’s cute and kinda fun. But when you talk about 3 or 4 ups, it starts to feel abusive. If you want to boost the seraphim’s angelic visage, you might turn it into a 6” aura.

No, my homebrew so far keeps Hospitallers as purely a Sororitas Command Squad option -- although you can kit out a Palatine with Chirurgeon's Tools for 50 points (65 if you add a Jump Pack) [EDIT: and as an Independent Character, she can join any squad]. That's probably plenty, no need to give this squad its own Hospitaller With Wings.

AnomanderRake wrote:the only issue I see is a lack of any representation of the 'descent-from-above' sort of image. I'd suggest some kind of benefit on the turn they Deep Strike if they do (assault after Deep Striking has been deleted from the game, Blind after Deep Striking has precedent but it's also situational to ineffective, the Inv makes cover on landing irrelevant, snapfire at them the turn they land sounds cool but it might make them too tough...) on top of what they've already got, with no more than a minor points increase.

I'd love other folks' ideas on how to give them a Deep Striking buff that represents their awesome descent from the heavens without breaking the "can't assault out of deep strike" rule that's pretty hard and fast in the current edition. As it stands, you have to Deep Strike very carefully -- perhaps more carefully than scatter rolls would really allow -- to avoid being shot to down on landing.

Nevelon wrote:Rank and file troops, even elite close combat ones, almost never get 3 attacks. That’s mostly a HQ thing. Even the sarge in a Vanguard Veteran squad only has 2.

Oh, it's three attacks on the charge. Should've made that clear.

Nevelon wrote:What options are on the melee and ranged weapon lists that aren’t listed individually in this unit entry? The bolters etc. she probably shouldn’t have access to.
I’d open up melta bomb access to the whole squad.

Ah, both good points.

koooaei wrote:Also, aren't eviscerators 25 pts?

Nevelon wrote:Eviscerators are normally canoness/priest only? You might want to restrict that to the superior. Also, don’t they cost 30 points? Less a 15 point discount for turning in your power lance. I would also drop the ability for any sister to swap out her lance, but let the superior. You want to keep the flavor of the unit (lance and shield) but if you let them swap out the lance, widely regarded as the worst power weapon, I suspect that will happen. You gave up hit and run, which is one of the corner cases that makes lances OK.

Yes, I was offering discounted Eviscerators to the rank and file -- only Repentia currently get that -- but that may be a wee bit much.

I was torn about giving up Hit & Run, which would be fitting with the unit being highly mobile. Adding it would be another 3 ppm by Ovion's rules. Or I could replace Furious Charge -- though S:6 on the charge is awfully nice. Or I could replace the enhanced Angelic Vision, the one that gives a rerollable 3++. What do folks think?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I absolutely agree with Melissia that 30-35 points is awfully expensive for a T:3 1-wound model. And I hadn't thought through their role thoroughly. Anonander Rake's idea of them as an elite, highly mobile counter-charge unit is clearer and more compelling than my vague thoughts of Deep Striking into the valley of death.

I dont think it should be a 3+ rerollable invul. That's a tad but too much.
Either a 4+ rerollable, or just a 3+ is better.

I don't think deepstrike would be good for them. Instead, give them a rule that lets them use their jump pack both in the movement phase and the assault phase.

Here's a revised version, still 30 ppm, but dropping the rerollable 3++, adding Hit & Run, and changing the Act of Faith from a Shred in melee to an extra 3" on the charge, Hit & Run moves, or Fall Back moves. The unit doesn't hit as hard or take hits as well, but it's significantly more mobile, able to leap in and out of combat -- and keep getting the charge. Does this trade-off work?

(There's also a lot of tidying-up, mainly based on Nevelon's close reading).
[Edited to fix typo in Attacks score and beef up the Act of Faith]


Principality Squad: 150 points (Elite)
Principality WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3++
Superior WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3++

Unit Composition: 4 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior
Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Superior is Jump Infantry (character)

Wargear: power armor, storm shield, power lance, bolt pistol, frag grenades, krak grenades, jump pack

Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith, Furious Charge, Hit & Run

Act of Faith: Leap of Faith: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in either player's Assault phase. If successful, the unit must add 3" to the distance rolled when it charges, uses the Hit & Run special rule, or Falls Back, until the end of the current phase.

Options:
May add up to five additional Principalities: 30 points per model
Any model may replace her power lance with a power sword: free
Any model may take melta bombs: 5 pts
The Principality Superior may replace her bolt pistol with
- a hand flamer: 5 pts
- an inferno pistol: 15 pts
- a plasma pistol: 15 pts
The Principality Superior may replace her power lance with an Eviscerator: 15 pts


Costing:

You had me at "Seraphim ... with lance & shield". It's just too cool an image for it not to be a thing.

I like it. On the charge they are getting 16 S5 ap3 attacks, and they have the ability to jump out of combat and charge again.( better hope you make that Hit& Run roll though or they are in trouble!)
Not to tough, but they'll definitely kill anything that isn't a dedicated assault unit, and be able to catch them too.

Yes, that Hit&Run roll is crucial -- but I realize the Act of Faith as written forces you to choose given them 3" more on their Hit&Run distance OR on their charge distance, and people will almost always choose to boost the charge.

Would it be OP to have the AOF add 3" to BOTH the charge and any Hit&Run move in the same phase? That's potentially 6" more movement.

Its one use only right? It sounds good to me. Its just extra insurance that you aren't caught back in the fray when you are trying to hit and run.

Looks good. I’m not sure on the exact wording on when acts of faith are activated, but with different uses you might want to check the verbiage on the timing. An extra 3” for the whole assault phase does not strike me as being over the top.

Still not sold on the A3 sarge, but that’s just my opinion.

From a formatting POV, the save in a statline should be a 3+, not a 3++. At least to match with the marine codex, I’m not sure if the SoB one uses the same style guide.

Overall the unit looks solid enough to playtest.

They use the Celestian statline, so both grunts and sarge have two Attacks (three on the charge). And their Act of Faith IS just once a game unless I give them the option to take a Simulacrum, which makes it twice a game.

3" extra is nice but not gamebreaking, I agree. How about 3" to BOTH charge and Hit&Run in the same phase, though?

 SisterSydney wrote:
They use the Celestian statline, so both grunts and sarge have two Attacks (three on the charge). And their Act of Faith IS just once a game unless I give them the option to take a Simulacrum, which makes it twice a game.

3" extra is nice but not gamebreaking, I agree. How about 3" to BOTH charge and Hit&Run in the same phase, though?

Superior WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:3 Ld:9 Sv:3++

(bolding mine) You still have it down as 3

An extra 3’ might be strong, but it’s their thing, and I don’t see it as overpowered. On the charge, it helps you get into CC, something I think the game needs more of. And with H&R, you get to fall back 3d6+3. The guys you just escaped from get a d6 consolidation, so that’s more like 2d6+3 if they want to close with you. 10” average. You are still not getting away from a dedicated pursuer. It will help reposition you unit to help elsewhere in the battlefield. As the imagery of seraphim is rife with angelic intervention in time of need, this is also acceptable to me.

Furious charge plus lances has them hitting at S6 AP3 on the charge, which is going to do bad things to MEQ. But they are pricy, and still go down to massed bolter fire. Looks OK overall.

Thanks, and d'oh, because I didn't catch that mistake (fixed now). I've revised the AOF so they add +3" when they charge AND +3" when they try to Hit&Run or have to Fall Back.

I'm still nervous about the fragility of this unit to shooting, but short of an expensive upgrade I don't see how to remedy it. Once they're in close combat, I don't worry about them so much, especially since you can accompany them with a Palatine with jet pack and War Hymnal from my fandex and give them freaking War Hymns, so they can reroll failed saves.