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 zaeroner wrote:
Just rumors dude, nothing "real"

I understand, which is why I used a conditional statement "if".

IIRC, a GK terminator has only 2pts of gear, right? Because the basic weapons are freebies? So let's say these rumors are both true - your GK terminator squad would be 28ppm with falchion, halberd, stave or force sword (I like the Stave personally just because I don't feel like you're going to be using your melee weapons too much, better to have the small defense increase if your opponent decides to roll up with some big nasty and take them on in melee). 140 for a 5-man squad, theoretically putting down 20 boltgun shots (the same as a currently 130pt marine tactical squad) and 2 mortal wounds if they get full smite.

For your trouble, you get 2+ armor, 5++, 2A with a good melee weapon if you get in, a psychic deny, and deep strike.

I kind of don't hate that?

A 35 point cut in the price of my repulsors is pretty good. They were near-viable before there was a Castellan on every table. I could potentially fit three of them into a list now.

It's slightly weird that they've cut the cost of Primaris captains. My captain with the fist of vengeance is an insane beatstick. I've never felt that 106 was too many points to pay for him. I'm not complaining though!

Forgive my ignorance, but how does that measure up to other Terminators?

the_scotsman wrote:

 zaeroner wrote:
Just rumors dude, nothing "real"

I understand, which is why I used a conditional statement "if".

IIRC, a GK terminator has only 2pts of gear, right? Because the basic weapons are freebies? So let's say these rumors are both true - your GK terminator squad would be 28ppm with falchion, halberd, stave or force sword (I like the Stave personally just because I don't feel like you're going to be using your melee weapons too much, better to have the small defense increase if your opponent decides to roll up with some big nasty and take them on in melee). 140 for a 5-man squad, theoretically putting down 20 boltgun shots (the same as a currently 130pt marine tactical squad) and 2 mortal wounds if they get full smite.

For your trouble, you get 2+ armor, 5++, 2A with a good melee weapon if you get in, a psychic deny, and deep strike.

I kind of don't hate that?

But how would they compete with a 16p PAGK, assuming that rumour hold as well?

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, GK terminators down 18 points? Are they still 44 like in the index currently? If they get that and access to full smite, that's pretty solid.

They got price drop in CA2017 so it wouldn't be as big price drop this time.

You're right, they went down to 41, so this would be a 15pt drop.

Still 35%. Better than what the SOTs would be seeing with a 7 pt drop, but I also think SOTS are coming from a solidly better spot having most of their power shifted into shooting, rather than paying for the D3 damage on their melee weapons.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but how does that measure up to other Terminators?

Favorably, tbh. Currently Termies are rumored to be going down 3pts from 26 base, and termies have more points into gear because of the powerfist.

23+2+12 = 37 for a regular terminator? Is a marine powerfist at 12ppm currently?

Seems a bit nutty. 9ppm more to lose the mortal wounds and just gain S8 in melee (and -1 to hit).

the_scotsman wrote:

 zaeroner wrote:
Just rumors dude, nothing "real"

I understand, which is why I used a conditional statement "if".

IIRC, a GK terminator has only 2pts of gear, right? Because the basic weapons are freebies? So let's say these rumors are both true - your GK terminator squad would be 28ppm with falchion, halberd, stave or force sword (I like the Stave personally just because I don't feel like you're going to be using your melee weapons too much, better to have the small defense increase if your opponent decides to roll up with some big nasty and take them on in melee). 140 for a 5-man squad, theoretically putting down 20 boltgun shots (the same as a currently 130pt marine tactical squad) and 2 mortal wounds if they get full smite.

For your trouble, you get 2+ armor, 5++, 2A with a good melee weapon if you get in, a psychic deny, and deep strike.

I kind of don't hate that?

that 'd make them literally cheaper than any other Terminator?
by 9 ppm. (CSM terminator with Power maul and combi bolter) That is insane, because not only are they better equipped but also get a psychic phase and a deny?
That alone makes me doubt it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 zaeroner wrote:
Just rumors dude, nothing "real"

I understand, which is why I used a conditional statement "if".

IIRC, a GK terminator has only 2pts of gear, right? Because the basic weapons are freebies? So let's say these rumors are both true - your GK terminator squad would be 28ppm with falchion, halberd, stave or force sword (I like the Stave personally just because I don't feel like you're going to be using your melee weapons too much, better to have the small defense increase if your opponent decides to roll up with some big nasty and take them on in melee). 140 for a 5-man squad, theoretically putting down 20 boltgun shots (the same as a currently 130pt marine tactical squad) and 2 mortal wounds if they get full smite.

For your trouble, you get 2+ armor, 5++, 2A with a good melee weapon if you get in, a psychic deny, and deep strike.

I kind of don't hate that?

that 'd make them literally cheaper than any other Terminator?
by 9 ppm. (CSM terminator with Power maul and combi bolter) That is insane, because not only are they better equipped but also get a psychic phase and a deny?
That alone makes me doubt it.

SOTs with the rumored changes would be 32, regular marine termies with mandatory fists (assuming powerfists don't go down) would be sitting at 37, CSMs assuming their termies get the same drop to 23 would be 30.

I dunno, maybe they give the basic GK melee weapons points? Does seem a little weird.

Maybe GK just need cheaper Terminators to function at all?

It's not like they can fill their battalions with scouts or cultists as other armies can.

 Jidmah wrote:
Maybe GK just need cheaper Terminators to function at all?

It's not like they can fill their battalions with scouts or cultists as other armies can.

I can buy it. Between 28ppm terminators and 18ppm PAGK I think there is a place for both, as the termies get their native deep strike straight into rapid fire range, you don't need to buy them a rhino or pay CPs to deep strike them.

I think that's a pretty reasonable price range for termies to be at. I think 37ppm is still beyond goofy for what they bring to the table.

Big if true for SOTs and GKs, bit of a sadface for loyalist termies.

Though other armies with more customizable termies - SW, DW, Chaos - would probably be able to make do with 23ppm base cost termies.

I really can’t believe that GK termies will be that much cheaper than everyone else’s. After all, remember that they have access to the full GK psychic options – not just a weak smite.

That said, actually I think 26 base would be about right for them. They’d end up about the same as a shining spear, and that sounds roughly correct. The spear is faster, hits harder and has more firepower. They are roughly equal in toughness (T5 3+/4++ vs shooting compared to T4 2+/5++ all the time) but the GK can do stuff with psychic powers.

I'm going to go ape gak with SoTs if this is true.

Mandragola wrote:
I really can’t believe that GK termies will be that much cheaper than everyone else’s. After all, remember that they have access to the full GK psychic options – not just a weak smite.

That said, actually I think 26 base would be about right for them. They’d end up about the same as a shining spear, and that sounds roughly correct. The spear is faster, hits harder and has more firepower. They are roughly equal in toughness (T5 3+/4++ vs shooting compared to T4 2+/5++ all the time) but the GK can do stuff with psychic powers.

They do, but unlike Thousand Sons and Eldar who have two different psychic tables, making their "mini-psykers" as useful as their "hero psykers" at casting, GK have only six to go round in a whole army that is psychic. If you have 3 GK hqs, you can have all 6 of their powers on the table. A nice quick fix for that would be to pull a Thousand Sons Daemon Psyker and give a few of their hero Hqs access to the librarius discipline.

And really, only a couple might be actually useful for a squad of terminators. Sanctuary is nice, but that's really the only thing I'd think of wanting on my GK termies. 2 of them are the mandatory "99% of the time pointless mortal wounding powers that are worse than smite" that every psychic list is infested with, one of them is "deep strike a thing" (which termies already do...) and 1 is a...let's say very niche shooting buff.

Deep striking your terminators behind a wall just to use Astral Aim on something does seem like a funny thing to do though. Stupid astartes always using wallhax.

Mandragola wrote:
They are roughly equal in toughness (T5 3+/4++ vs shooting compared to T4 2+/5++ all the time)

Just to clarify so that misconceptions about Eldar do not continue to spread, but Eldar Bikes are NOT T5, nor have they ever been (well the Vyper is now, but it was never a Bike before).
Spears and Windriders are only T4.

But I agree with your analysis otherwise. GK Termies having 2+/5++ vs Spears having 3+/4++ vs shooting is about even given the speed of the Spears.
What makes Spears better overall, is their support, but that shouldn't translate to the SPEARS' point cost, but the point cost of said support units.
This is the whole reason that Warlocks are currently "overcosted" because of their potential to make other units far better.

-

Greater Daemons going down makes me happy. Let's hope other Daemons go down as well to match it.

 Galef wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
They are roughly equal in toughness (T5 3+/4++ vs shooting compared to T4 2+/5++ all the time)

Just to clarify so that misconceptions about Eldar do not continue to spread, but Eldar Bikes are NOT T5, nor have they ever been (well the Vyper is now, but it was never a Bike before).
Spears and Windriders are only T4.

But I agree with your analysis otherwise. GK Termies having 2+/5++ vs Spears having 3+/4++ vs shooting is about even given the speed of the Spears.
What makes Spears better overall, is their support, but that shouldn't translate to the SPEARS' point cost, but the point cost of said support units.
This is the whole reason that Warlocks are currently "overcosted" because of their potential to make other units far better.

-

Sorry, yes of course they aren’t T5.

How and where to cost force multipliers is a really tough one. I’d argue that you kind of need to pay it both for the support unit and the unit that gets supported, because qualities of both units are relevant.

So a warlock’s ability to make a unit move a second time is made particularly valuable because insanely fast spears exist for him to cast it on. A warlock in an army without spears is nowhere near as good (though there’s loads of other great stuff he can do). And spears are still seriously fast even without a warlock, so they ought to pay something for that.

As an aside, it’s weird how little a terminator’s invulnerable is actually worth, due to its 2+ save. For it to do anything you need to be hit by a weapon with AP -4/5, and to then roll a 5 or 6. A lot of us are choosing weapons like disintegrators or avenger gatling cannons, precisely because they work fine against any target. A 2+ save is a great thing to have of course.

 Galef wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
They are roughly equal in toughness (T5 3+/4++ vs shooting compared to T4 2+/5++ all the time)

Just to clarify so that misconceptions about Eldar do not continue to spread, but Eldar Bikes are NOT T5, nor have they ever been (well the Vyper is now, but it was never a Bike before).
Spears and Windriders are only T4.

But I agree with your analysis otherwise. GK Termies having 2+/5++ vs Spears having 3+/4++ vs shooting is about even given the speed of the Spears.
What makes Spears better overall, is their support, but that shouldn't translate to the SPEARS' point cost, but the point cost of said support units.
This is the whole reason that Warlocks are currently "overcosted" because of their potential to make other units far better.

-

Well - IMO the big difference is speed. Spears are 3x faster than a terminator. 4x Automatically if they advance and they have all assault weapons. Units with similiar defensive profiles and damage capabilities but one is 3x the speed. Those units shouldn't even be close in cost. GW doesn't really charge for mobility ATM.

Don't get me wrong, speed is very valuable and should be paid for by the unit that has it.
But my point is that they should NOT pay for the ability to move twice if they don't inherently have that ability. The Character you paid for is what is giving it, and you still have to roll to receive it.

Yes, Spears need to be a bit more expensive than even GK Terminators, but not be much. My reasoning on this is two-fold:
A) GK Terminators are still Troops and that carries ObSec and
B) The difference between 2+ and 3+ armour means small arms fire is *just* enough of a threat. Spears will lose twice as many models to RF Lasguns/Bolters.
35-40ppm is the sweet spot for Spears, while Terminators really ought to be not more than 35ppm, preferable ~30ppm

And when units pay for abilities that they *might* receive, you end up with garbage units like the WK.
Also altering the -1 to hit traits to be cover related instead should fix many of the OP issues with units being Alaitoc, AL or RG.

-

If those rumors hold greater demons might finally be usable.

T4 W2 3+ 4++ (vs shooting only), versus T4 W2 2+ 5++, similar basic gun (rapid fire 2 vs assault 4 with half the range, shuricats get bladestorm).

Shooting wise you're looking at a potential full smite (so 2 mortals) for the squad of termies vs 5 S6 AP-4 D2 shots, which is a hair more than 2 wounds on average versus a vehicle.

In melee I'd give it to the spears as well, S6 AP-4 D2 versus the grey knights probably going stave or force sword so they'll either have lower AP or lower strength.

Really, the only edge the termies would have in this comparison would be:

-Deep strike vs on the board T1, which makes the spears IMO higher-risk higher-reward (might do something T1, also might not get first turn and they get shot up by plasma. And keep in mind, they're no longer -1 to hit base from ranged weapons, versus plasma they'll be on their invul no matter what)

-Can opt to exchange their "anti-heavy" psychic attack for casting a psychic buff on themselves. Situational, definitely, given the competition for GK powers, but sanctuary and hammerhand have their uses.

-Can take GK special guns - very much dependent on whether we see any buffs for those in CA. IIRC only the psilencer is even worth considering right now.

-Troops vs Fast.

I think it's still definitely fair to say that spears would be well worth that extra point, especially with how good eldar buffs/psychic powers are. GK don't have the level of aura buffage that marines do, and they don't have anywhere near the psychic powers that eldar do.

I think it's a needed improvement that takes a unit that previously was unusable and gives them a reason to exist, but I am under no illusions that GK are suddenly OK.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/03/3rd-dec-war-zone-vigilus-a-new-theatre-of-wargw-homepage-post-2/

Ooooh is that an ork dread mob formation??

Wow, at 150 my Keepers might actually see the tabletop again. Course, that just further exacerbates the stupidity that is Zarakynel costing 666.

 greggles wrote:
Ooooh is that an ork dread mob formation??

Yes. Yes it is.



Anyone else disappointed that there's a "Servitor Maniple" formation? It's like "Gee, the thing keeping me from using Servitors was that they didn't get special rules!"(said no one ever)

Ravenwing Attack Squadron!

Servitor Maniple.
Wow. Paying CP to make servitors better? I... I don't even...

Edit:
Well kataphrons are servitors too... so...

Gd. Someone needs to spill the beans on the ork dread mob formation stat.

Please...with teef on top.

Im blind or there is no any chaos / Black Legion forces except Jump Puck lord?

Nizrah wrote:
Im blind or there is no any chaos / Black Legion forces except Jump Puck lord?

Correct.

Chaos forces are, lorewise, supposed to be relatively new arrivals to the warzone though.

Looks like Crimson fists will be getting their own stuff for this book.

All I can say is I hope CA does some serious balancing otherwise giving things like Guard Infantry additional formations to make them more powerful