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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.


Could be something a little less drastic, like one upgrade sprue per legion with a mix of parts similar to when the Primaris non-Codex chapters rolled out. Not as exciting, but possibly more manageable. I don't know what to expect because that's exactly the thing you used to look to Forgeworld for more than whole models but who knows what their future holds. If this was 2005 I would have expected a plastic kit for each armor mark and a resin set for each Legion, and doors!

   
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I can only speak for the 18th but our upgrade set has both MkIII & IV.

So maybe something like that?
   
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 Prometheum5 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.


Could be something a little less drastic, like one upgrade sprue per legion with a mix of parts similar to when the Primaris non-Codex chapters rolled out. Not as exciting, but possibly more manageable. I don't know what to expect because that's exactly the thing you used to look to Forgeworld for more than whole models but who knows what their future holds. If this was 2005 I would have expected a plastic kit for each armor mark and a resin set for each Legion, and doors!
In an ideal world the Heresy would have a full plastic range. In a more realistic world, I think what would be manageable for GW/FW would be split up the production of units.

Have GW produce the basic "Core" units and give FW the upgrades kits/special units.

From GW we'd get...
Stock power Armour kits Mks II thru VI
Terminator Armour (Cataphractii, Tartaros)
Tank Hulls. (Deimos, Spartan Maybe even Sicaran)
Dreadnoughts (Contemptor, Leviathan)
Jetbikes.

That's 14 Heresy-centric SKUs. 7 of which are already in existence. (Also doesn't include kits like the Landraider which is cross-compatible.)

As for the kits themselves...
-The MkII/V/VI would be just standard tac squad style kits. No issues there.
-The two terminator kits are largely fine as they currently are. Only thing they could add is another sprue for each with more of the weapon options for both. Powerswords/chainaxes/Combi-weapons/etc.
-The Deimos hull would cover you for Rhinos, all makes of Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicators and Damocles. A Demios kit could give you the option to make a rhino and predator w/autocannons. You want something else, kit-bash from the 40k tanks or buy the appropriate upgrade kit from FW.
-A Sicaran hull could run much along the same lines. Kit makes a standard Sicaran Battle Tank and maybe one of the anti-tank variants, the Omega for example. You want the Arcus, Punisher or Venator, go to FW for it.
-The Dreadnoughts could both be similar kits. Have 'X' amount of sprues for the main body/bits. And 'X' amount of sprues for the weapons. That way you've got all your options available. The current plastic contemptor is two sprues, from memory, but is push fit with only 3 weapons. A full/semi multipose kit with one of each weapon option would probably blow it out to 4 sprues. I'd have to imagine a similar kit for the Levi you'd be looking at least 5 of the big sprues.
-Jetbikes would be a real winner here I think. Pack of 3 with all the weapon options. Maybe a choice of armour Mk for the rider if they're feeling generous.


Shoot across to FW and you'd get...
-Legion specific tactical upgrade/veteran kits.
-Legion specific units. (Sekmet, Siege Tyrants, Interemptors, Pryroclasts, Golden Kesig, etc.)
-Specialist/uncommon tank varieties for the Demimos, Landraider, Sicaran, etc.
-Other less usual tanks. (Proteus, Sabre, Aquitor, etc.)
-Super Heavy tanks/Aircraft.
-Legion specific Dreadnought hulls. GW sells you the plastic version, FW sells you the fancy resin one.

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I’m kinda meh on a plastic Spartan, but a plastic Sicaran, I’d be all over that!

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 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
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I only included the Spartan because we already know (assume) it's coming. Otherwise yeah, that seems more logical to have it as a FW thing as (to my knowledge) it's not as commonly used as Landraiders and has less versatility then a Sicaran.

A generic plastic Praetor/Centurion kit would also be really needed. Make it something like this, but then give us options for some/all of the consul choices.

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I dont expect them to release legion specific upgrade packs. Maybe for some more popular legions. SoH and IF obviously because theyre being promoted. Perhaps several more popular choices like BA, Ultras, DG, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 09:49:23


 
   
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 Crazyterran wrote:
Just wait for the Primaris release to represent the super secret testing Cawl did!


.. And this is why HH players want a separation with their game

At the moment the Crusade/Heresy-era stuff is nicely isolated from any of the modern release nonsense of 40k; of GI Joe Super Team + Marines, Primarchs returning from the dead or new Tonka Toy STC template vehicles and wargear etc.

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Would be good if GW added SC boxes alongside a new boxed game to lower the barrier to entry for HH
   
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I could see this actually being a cross-marketing push by GW: the ancient tech is still available in very limited quantities to current SM chapters...as are the original marines. If they adjust the scale a little (big fan of larger marines...my eyes are approaching 50) then the newer players who favor Primaris may look at them for options.
Make the HH 7th Rulebook available in this box to remove the usual barriers of entry, add dice...I mean just "Pelenor Fields" the box set. Buy one and get playing immediately.

Make a single book with just the rules for all the units from the HH books as a companion and take up the plastics ideas from above per Snrub and you hit the HH crowd, the Nostalgia crowd and the new players wanting to add some spice to their modern forces.

The main army to have to work with would be the Mechanicum, as I am not aware of the current Codex offering any of the cool gadgets from the past. Maybe that could be in the "All the Forces" book? Just spitballing here.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.


Yeah, I have a very hard time believing that we're going to see a massive expansion of HH plastics...especially anything that's 30K-specific. I can believe selected core/generic type kits like Tacticals and Spartans. I can believe selected kits that crossover especially well...like maybe a Telemon for example, since 40K Custodes have to borrow from 30K to fill out their very limited range. But Legion-specific units will almost certainly stay in resin. If HH was about to move into 'core game' level of support, it'd have more than one dude doing the writing. This feels like GW just bumping up some support to bring HH alongside the other SG lines.

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 gorgon wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.


Yeah, I have a very hard time believing that we're going to see a massive expansion of HH plastics...especially anything that's 30K-specific. I can believe selected core/generic type kits like Tacticals and Spartans. I can believe selected kits that crossover especially well...like maybe a Telemon for example, since 40K Custodes have to borrow from 30K to fill out their very limited range. But Legion-specific units will almost certainly stay in resin. If HH was about to move into 'core game' level of support, it'd have more than one dude doing the writing. This feels like GW just bumping up some support to bring HH alongside the other SG lines.


From what I've heard there are now a few other people working on the game as well. And a lot of what may be coming this year is releases that have been delayed for a multitude of reasons.

I don't necessarily need my legion upgrades in plastic, but I would like an expanded range of plastic kits. More marks of armor, assault marines, a few plastic tank kits, that sort of thing. It would help lower the barrier of entry by a good amount.
   
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Yeah, I can see some vehicles and maybe assault marines.

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 Snrub wrote:

-The Deimos hull would cover you for Rhinos, all makes of Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicators and Damocles. A Demios kit could give you the option to make a rhino and predator w/autocannons. You want something else, kit-bash from the 40k tanks or buy the appropriate upgrade kit from FW.
-A Sicaran hull could run much along the same lines. Kit makes a standard Sicaran Battle Tank and maybe one of the anti-tank variants, the Omega for example. You want the Arcus, Punisher or Venator, go to FW for it.
-The Dreadnoughts could both be similar kits. Have 'X' amount of sprues for the main body/bits. And 'X' amount of sprues for the weapons. That way you've got all your options available. The current plastic contemptor is two sprues, from memory, but is push fit with only 3 weapons. A full/semi multipose kit with one of each weapon option would probably blow it out to 4 sprues. I'd have to imagine a similar kit for the Levi you'd be looking at least 5 of the big sprues.
-Jetbikes would be a real winner here I think. Pack of 3 with all the weapon options. Maybe a choice of armour Mk for the rider if they're feeling generous.


Agreed with nearly all of this. A Leviathan Dreadnought would not be as many sprues as you think though, its essentially the same size as the plastic Redemptor kit. Give it a claw, Storm cannon, and fusion option, and make sure the weapons can all be mounted left or right. If you want to double up guns, buy 2 kits.
   
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What are the odds of it we get a new eiditon of 30k in some capacity the game will go down in size from the old 6x4 to the new board size for AOS and 40k?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
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Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Pacific wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Just wait for the Primaris release to represent the super secret testing Cawl did!


.. And this is why HH players want a separation with their game

At the moment the Crusade/Heresy-era stuff is nicely isolated from any of the modern release nonsense of 40k; of GI Joe Super Team + Marines, Primarchs returning from the dead or new Tonka Toy STC template vehicles and wargear etc.


That's been my experience of 30k for the mast part, I have a few friends who play it but everyone else who thinks they play it just do mega battles ala apoc exclusively or use the miniatures in 40k. The distinction is barely there for a lot of players as is, they just want their toys basically. But it's seemingly never enough to leave the HH ruleset alone, even to the point of gw making rules for all of the 30k in 40k, somehow 30k's superior ruleset just has to get the ides of march treatment with all well wishers grabbing their shiny models while stabbing the rules in the back. And I'm not even coming at this as some great fan of the fluff or the novels, the rules are just better, a lot better. I every conceivable way. 40k now is a collectable card game with models, god help us if they come for 30k's rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sacredroach wrote:
I could see this actually being a cross-marketing push by GW: the ancient tech is still available in very limited quantities to current SM chapters...as are the original marines. If they adjust the scale a little (big fan of larger marines...my eyes are approaching 50) then the newer players who favor Primaris may look at them for options.
Make the HH 7th Rulebook available in this box to remove the usual barriers of entry, add dice...I mean just "Pelenor Fields" the box set. Buy one and get playing immediately.

Make a single book with just the rules for all the units from the HH books as a companion and take up the plastics ideas from above per Snrub and you hit the HH crowd, the Nostalgia crowd and the new players wanting to add some spice to their modern forces.

The main army to have to work with would be the Mechanicum, as I am not aware of the current Codex offering any of the cool gadgets from the past. Maybe that could be in the "All the Forces" book? Just spitballing here.


They could easily do the little rulebook with minimal editing too ya.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 19:46:22


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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What are the odds of it we get a new eiditon of 30k in some capacity the game will go down in size from the old 6x4 to the new board size for AOS and 40k?

I think zero... or I would like to think zero. Which means probably...

   
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 jeff white wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What are the odds of it we get a new eiditon of 30k in some capacity the game will go down in size from the old 6x4 to the new board size for AOS and 40k?

I think zero... or I would like to think zero. Which means probably...


Given how it happened to both AoS and 40k, i think it's in fact, very likely

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
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Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.
   
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 Crablezworth wrote:
That's been my experience of 30k for the mast part, I have a few friends who play it but everyone else who thinks they play it just do mega battles ala apoc exclusively or use the miniatures in 40k. The distinction is barely there for a lot of players as is, they just want their toys basically. But it's seemingly never enough to leave the HH ruleset alone, even to the point of gw making rules for all of the 30k in 40k, somehow 30k's superior ruleset just has to get the ides of march treatment with all well wishers grabbing their shiny models while stabbing the rules in the back. And I'm not even coming at this as some great fan of the fluff or the novels, the rules are just better, a lot better. I every conceivable way. 40k now is a collectable card game with models, god help us if they come for 30k's rules.


They're both pretty terrible wargames...just in very different ways. Modern 40K is a leaner core ruleset surrounded by endless supplemental sprawl in every direction. Meanwhile, the 7th edition core rules are wildly overwrought and stacked too high on top of the 3rd edition base, like some kind of faltering Jenga tower.

Both games are mostly about the pretty miniatures.

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 Mr. Grey wrote:
Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.


Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.

Its why the whole "three ways to play" bit is a load of bull. The majority of the community is going to end up playing matched play following the standards set by the main competitive circuit - in the previous edition I could go to any shop in the tristate area and everyone would insist only on playing using the ITC rules, even for a casual game, even though it wasn't "rulebook official 40k". The only time narrative or open get trotted out is if its an individual/group that is isolated from the broader community and thus don't have community influence to pull them in that direction.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.


Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.

Its why the whole "three ways to play" bit is a load of bull. The majority of the community is going to end up playing matched play following the standards set by the main competitive circuit - in the previous edition I could go to any shop in the tristate area and everyone would insist only on playing using the ITC rules, even for a casual game, even though it wasn't "rulebook official 40k". The only time narrative or open get trotted out is if its an individual/group that is isolated from the broader community and thus don't have community influence to pull them in that direction.


This has unfortunately been my experience. I remember when 6th was relatively new going to my LGS on 40k night to see about three quarters of the players were playing optimized tournament winning lists, and the other quarter were younger kids who brought cool fluffy lists or ones comprised of models they liked. It was just embarrassing to watch grown men playing at an LGS crushing teenagers and constantly gaming the rules, not reminding their opponents of rules in their favor, and pulling out brand new FAQ info, etc. Not to say everyone that plays in local stores is like that, or that everyone who does is bad opponent/sport, but in my experiences a lot of casual settings follow what is used in top tier competitive tournaments, even if the players have not intention of ever playing in said top tier tournaments.

Which is generally why I don’t play games at LGS and just play with my buddies. If we don’t like how a rule is working, or board size, or an FAQ, or what not, we can just change it. The point of playing games is having fun, might as well get as much enjoyment out of it as you can.

 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.
They can take my 6x4's when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They can take my 6x4's when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

No kidding. I've seen people actually cutting their mats. It's like people never heard about the miracle of masking tape.


 
   
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I havent been following 40k closesly since 8th. What are the new average board sizes?

Given the prelevance of long range/artillary weapons in 30k, making the boards smaller doesnt really make a whole lot of sense. That being said, when has GW/FW been known for making sensible choices.

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 Snrub wrote:
What are the new average board sizes?
Two of these sets, put into a 2x2 grid.

It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.

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I’m not convinced it’ll happen for 30k, because the specialist games team is a completely separate team and it’s not been a thing for other specialist games yet, but it also wouldn’t really surprise me if it did.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?

Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.

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 Snrub wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?

Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.


You assume GW gives a gak about how well anything works

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
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 Mr. Grey wrote:
Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.


Players have poor grasp of meaning minimum and fixation to take gw's word as absolutes.

Were gw to write game rules as "dice roll off, winner won game" tournaments would be done soon with 2 handfull of dice rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Snrub wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?

Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.


You assume GW gives a gak about how well anything works


Or even tournament organisers who admitted they initially opposed it but then realized they can cram more players and thus increase income.

It's about money.

Word minimum even tells it's not optimal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/26 11:51:35


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