Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 kestral wrote:
I was under the impression we were getting free/very cheap rules like AOS seemed to, at least at first. That was a huge selling point for me - whatever I thought of the fine points of the 8E rules, if I didn't have to drop a couple hundred to play my armies, I'd give it a thorough trial. I suppose there is always book sharing.

The core rules are free, and the army books are like 30-40 USD each. There are five army books, so it's 150 to 200 USD to get the rules for every army in the game. By comparison, codices currently range from 40-60 USD... and each codex only has the rules for one army.

So I mean, the amount of money it costs for all the rules in the game is like... I dunno... 10-15 times cheaper then how things are now?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 kestral wrote:
I was under the impression we were getting free/very cheap rules like AOS seemed to, at least at first. That was a huge selling point for me - whatever I thought of the fine points of the 8E rules, if I didn't have to drop a couple hundred to play my armies, I'd give it a thorough trial. I suppose there is always book sharing.

The core rules are free, and the army books are like 30-40 USD each. There are five army books, so it's 150 to 200 USD to get the rules for every army in the game. By comparison, codices currently range from 40-60 USD... and each codex only has the rules for one army.

So I mean, the amount of money it costs for all the rules in the game is like... I dunno... 10-15 times cheaper then how things are now?

Exactly this.
I've currently got - Space Marines, Chaos, Orks (so many Orks), Tau, IG, Tyranids, and I'm probably forgetting something.. but basically I would be spending let's say $35x 6.. but wait! I have Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels (and an unbuilt Crimson Fist list..) That would be at least 3 more books.

For someone who only plays one army and never plans on playing any other army ever? Yeah maybe this is frustrating.



I would also point out, this is not without precedent. In front of me now is Codex Imperialis.. A 2nd ed book that has the rules for just about anything you could think of from the era. Space Marines, IG, Inquisition, Arbites, Orks, Eldar, Squats, Chaos, Tyranids.. I'm not seeing points in this book so I'll have a look in the others that came in the box.. but it was the same concept. Moreover, the 3rd ed BRB had a interim list covering a lot of units for all of the armies that survived the transition. That DID have the points directly in it. So this isn't a new move for GW or anything, I just think they're monetizing it a bit more wisely this time around.

Someone in my group said something stupid, but then it got me wondering, 'maybe I'm the one being stupid'.

How long will the index books be available for? Are they release only?

Zustiur wrote:
Someone in my group said something stupid, but then it got me wondering, 'maybe I'm the one being stupid'.

How long will the index books be available for? Are they release only?

Presumably they'll be around until every army in them has a new codex.

All the Grand Alliance books for Age of Sigmar are still around, so I imagine these books will stick around as well.

Aye, they should be around for a while. They help people port their current army from the previous edition to the current one and also provide the rules for units/miniatures that may not be updated for years to come (or may not be updated/relevant at all).

 ImAGeek wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
Someone in my group said something stupid, but then it got me wondering, 'maybe I'm the one being stupid'.

How long will the index books be available for? Are they release only?

Presumably they'll be around until every army in them has a new codex.

I am sure GW will keep printing them and selling their digital copies. Much like the Grand Alliance books, there are probably armies that won't be getting new codexes. Talons of the Emperor is probably one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Imperial Agents doesn't see a new version since only like five models for it are in plastic.

I'm told the Indeicies will be £15 in the UK. So nothing bank breaking.

To infinitus, and beyond!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The core rules are free, and the army books are like 30-40 USD each. There are five army books, so it's 150 to 200 USD to get the rules for every army in the game. By comparison, codices currently range from 40-60 USD... and each codex only has the rules for one army.

So I mean, the amount of money it costs for all the rules in the game is like... I dunno... 10-15 times cheaper then how things are now?

But what's in these Index books? I mean, a Codex comes not just with rules but all the fluff, artwork and miniature stuff. Will these books be several Codices-worth of information in a single book? The books would be hundreds of pages long! Or are they a brief overview of the army, then all the rules.

To say that these are cheaper and therefore better kind of ignores the content of the books.


Also don't know how accurate this is, but boy are they big:
Picture is very wide, so turning it into a link!

I'm expecting lists of points and upgrades, and army-wide rules and strategems for each faction but no fluff. It'll be purely crunch that they can update in a year and re-release. The dataslates themselves will likely be free and released online - but to use them in a game with points (and not power levels)and upgrades and such will require the index. That's my guess.

It'd be a bit like a DLC model - you get the basic game for free, but to play the "advanced game" will require paying for the rules.

The AoS-equivalent of the index books are still relevant despite being released a year or so ago; some sections have been rendered obsolete by new releases but there is still more of each book that's relevant than not. Of course all the unit rules present in those books are also available for free, so it's only loosely analogous.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
To infinitus, and beyond!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The core rules are free, and the army books are like 30-40 USD each. There are five army books, so it's 150 to 200 USD to get the rules for every army in the game. By comparison, codices currently range from 40-60 USD... and each codex only has the rules for one army.

So I mean, the amount of money it costs for all the rules in the game is like... I dunno... 10-15 times cheaper then how things are now?

But what's in these Index books? I mean, a Codex comes not just with rules but all the fluff, artwork and miniature stuff. Will these books be several Codices-worth of information in a single book? The books would be hundreds of pages long! Or are they a brief overview of the army, then all the rules.

To say that these are cheaper and therefore better kind of ignores the content of the books.


Also don't know how accurate this is, but boy are they big:
Picture is very wide, so turning it into a link!

I believe they will have minimal fluff, and when the factions have their individual codices released again, that is when we will see some extra fluff.
So it comes down to what you value for your money. You are getting alot of rules for very cheap, but not alot of fluff.
(This is some speculation, but it is based on what we have seen so far)

 MLaw wrote:


I would also point out, this is not without precedent. In front of me now is Codex Imperialis.. A 2nd ed book that has the rules for just about anything you could think of from the era. Space Marines, IG, Inquisition, Arbites, Orks, Eldar, Squats, Chaos, Tyranids.. I'm not seeing points in this book so I'll have a look in the others that came in the box.. but it was the same concept. Moreover, the 3rd ed BRB had a interim list covering a lot of units for all of the armies that survived the transition. That DID have the points directly in it. So this isn't a new move for GW or anything, I just think they're monetizing it a bit more wisely this time around.

All of the points and get by army lists came in a separate A4 booklet contained in the 2nd Ed box.

I still have mine to reminisce over the Squats and Ogryn champions for Orks.

Unless I'm missing something, under the new Mob rule, if I have a mob of 30, you manage to kill 15 (not that hard, even with KFF and 6+ FNP), they take another d6 battleshock casualties because their LD would only be 15, assuming no other large mob being nearby.

So what's all this nonsense about orks ignoring morale?
Fething beaky and pansy players...

Really disappointed that the plague marines are nearly the same size as Primaris. Ive waited so many years for updated CSM models, and now we will probably never see them in "regular" size again.

The size creep is really insane this release, basically starting a slow invalidation process of all older SM and CSM armies.

 ergotoxin wrote:
Really disappointed that the plague marines are nearly the same size as Primaris. Ive waited so many years for updated CSM models, and now we will probably never see them in "regular" size again.

The size creep is really insane this release, basically starting a slow invalidation process of all older SM and CSM armies.

True, making it even weirder that they had to justify a fluff reason for the primus marines...if they were just gonna scale up CSM too. This feels like GW is trying to please everyone, not piss off players who have large existing armies. But on one hand by trying to make everyone happy, no group in particular is satisfied with how this is turning out. If the models keep getting bigger, then they better take into account the size of the board and how many models are involved or it will turn into a clustergak.

D6 battleshock casualties is less harsh than previous No Retreat! rules. (E.g. lose ten models in assault then try to make another ten armour saves on a 6+.

Regarding Index books: in AoS I am still waiting to see what they do with Aelves and Death (the later has seen a book for FEC but no new models) Meanwhile we see lots of Sigmarines, Chaos (barring She Who Must Not Be Mentioned) with three or four other factions getting some love.

If 40K takes a similar path we will see Marines getting their current kit 'Primarised'. New bigger Wolf Riders, Primaris Death Company, etc) Then some Chaos love (hopefully Slaaanesh gets some releases. Otherwise she needs a new agent!)

Oh, I forgot that Legion of the Damned are now a full faction....might see plastic releases for them plus we might see brand new Primaris Chapters arriving!

Two or three times a year we will see something for the Xenos. CWE are usually the Xenos getting first dibs. However, we could see new Starter Sets of e.g. Blood Angels Vs Tyranids. With Ynnari being the newest Xenos faction they could see a big release of dedicated models early on.

I think I will be using Index Books for my Tyranids and Dark Eldar for a good couple of years. If they are fun to play and reasonably balanced that's not a huge issue for me.

 ergotoxin wrote:
Really disappointed that the plague marines are nearly the same size as Primaris. Ive waited so many years for updated CSM models, and now we will probably never see them in "regular" size again.

The size creep is really insane this release, basically starting a slow invalidation process of all older SM and CSM armies.

CSM invalidated themselves a looong time ago bye being garbage and a sorry excuse for a model. They could cost 5p in game but i would still never spend actual money on those crapy miniatures.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are sounding suitably resilient now.

Battleshock is more a concern for them in the late game, when they've taken casualties over a number of turns.

But between Mob Rule, Warboss Beatings*, and a Nobz Kickings they're going to be really difficult to shift. A disastrous roll can be mitigated to a maximum of three Boyz legging it, and there's a chance the Nob might keep at least one of them in the fight.

The big issue is if boyz are just shot down on the field. Battleshock is a thing, but it won't come into effect befire a heap of boyz are dead in a single turn.

Most shots will wound on 4+ or 3+, then have a 4+ save or 5++ save, and finally ignore damage on 6+. Its a saving grace KFF and painboyz can cover several mobz, and that templates are gone which were often forcing a long movement phase, or else taking several hits per blast.

I am still not convinced that orks will weather the enemy's shooting phase.

Everything strength 6-7 that used to delete Orks wholesale now wounds less and they will get their t-shirt saves against things like scatterlasers and multilasers.

Orks are faar better off against shooting than they were before. And with the loss of taking models from the front shooting no longer slows down you approach to combat. Their losses from the front of the unit really drove their mobility issues when combined with their normal speed.

You might lose 4-5 Boyz, but your unit lost 3-4" of movement they did last turn.

My first thought to 8th was tau would do well, and while they only wound orks on 3+ they will put down a lot of shots, even more than before since TL high yield missile pods broadsides has 8 shots.

Well, after its clear what books will be released soon, I'd like to ask a stupid question: What's the content of the Warhammer 40k book for 45 Euro?
The rules (which are supposed to be of no charge) or some extension book?

The Free Core Rules are 12 pages long and contain the basics.

The Big Book will have those, plus detailing more about Open Play (with more missions) and introduce Narrative and Matched play and all the additional rules and missions needed to play those.

Plus is has the Cities of Death, Stronghold Assault ect. Advanced Rule expansion.

On top of that I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the book is new background material detailing all the changes that have happened since Gathering Storm ended.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, after its clear what books will be released soon, I'd like to ask a stupid question: What's the content of the Warhammer 40k book for 45 Euro?
The rules (which are supposed to be of no charge) or some extension book?

I'd expect:
50% fluff
15% model / army showcase
2% hobby
15% rules
5% missions
5% force org and army selection


also just because the rules fit on 12 pages does not mean they fit on 12 pages in a big rule book with borders artwork etc. The free PDF will prob be 12 pages smaller font etc

 ergotoxin wrote:
Really disappointed that the plague marines are nearly the same size as Primaris. Ive waited so many years for updated CSM models, and now we will probably never see them in "regular" size again.

The size creep is really insane this release, basically starting a slow invalidation process of all older SM and CSM armies.

I plan on using the new DG as Aspiring Champions for my old army. The Forge World upgrades still look amazing.

Thanks!

The Free Core Rules are 12 pages long and contain the basics.

So the free part of the edition looks more like a concession to the gamers than anything else.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Thanks!

The Free Core Rules are 12 pages long and contain the basics.

So the free part of the edition looks more like a concession to the gamers than anything else.

Yeah it basically the "Hey is this big, expensive rulebook holding you back from playing? Then don't worry, you can play a heavily stripped down version of the ruleset for some mindless fun."
Useful as a tool to get new or old, old players back that are looking for nothing more than a bit of fun, but for someone more invested in the system as a whole? Not so much.

At the same time though, it's not like that's a bad thing. It still has everything you need to play (aside from unit rules, given there's 0 clarification as to whether they'll also be available as a free download), and compared to the Age of Sigmar rules, the 40k ones even come with a mission!

The free rules are there to help new players start. You buy a box, your friend buys a box and then use the free rules and datasheets to get going right away.

Most of the stuff they have changed has specifically been about making it easier to start, which is what they identified as their major weakness (in one of Rountrees first reports was it?)

Vorian wrote:
The free rules are there to help new players start. You buy a box, your friend buys a box and then use the free rules and datasheets to get going right away.

Most of the stuff they have changed has specifically been about making it easier to start, which is what they identified as their major weakness (in one of Rountrees first reports was it?)

Yup the data sheets for the units are in with the box of mini's the new players have just bought - so along with the free 12 page rules, they have everything to play right there.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Thanks!

The Free Core Rules are 12 pages long and contain the basics.

So the free part of the edition looks more like a concession to the gamers than anything else.

Yeah it basically the "Hey is this big, expensive rulebook holding you back from playing? Then don't worry, you can play a heavily stripped down version of the ruleset for some mindless fun."
Useful as a tool to get new or old, old players back that are looking for nothing more than a bit of fun, but for someone more invested in the system as a whole? Not so much.

At the same time though, it's not like that's a bad thing. It still has everything you need to play (aside from unit rules, given there's 0 clarification as to whether they'll also be available as a free download), and compared to the Age of Sigmar rules, the 40k ones even come with a mission!

How is it 'heavily stripped down... for some mindless fun'? It isn't. Scenarios, playstyles (eg Cityfight), missions may add layers of nuance, but the rules are the same. Nothing is stripped down. Rather the reverse - you add complexity if you want it. The "Cityfight Maelstrom Matched Play" Starbucks-length-title format is not inherently 'better' or the default... that's part of their move to Three Ways To Play. Indeed, I see myself using that type of game infrequently.