Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

D6 pie plates... I don't think we'll be seeing that any time soon. The Manticore's nasty enough.

Melissia wrote:I would like S9 and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuut it's incredibly unlikely.

It is wishful thinking, I know - just trying to think of left-field ways the second half might fix things. Also, been looking at the photos in White Dwarf this morning, and noticed that they show two Command Squads, both with five models - do we think a five model cap for Command Squads is feasible? I figured they might go as high as 10, since that was the technical cap of the old Canoness's retinue (though the only time I ever fielded more than five was in a couple of friendlies, sticking them aboard Repressors). There's only one Conclave squad shown - looks like it has ten models in it, a mixture of the three types.

Mythal wrote:What do people think the odds of an Exoricst buff are? Maybe giving an alternative large blast firing mode with lower ArPen, or making them S9 to finally deal with the whole 3% chance to kill AP14 thing?

I do find it odd that the description for the Exorcist cannon didn't show up in the Exorcist's entry like it would in a real codex. I suppose they wanted to give themselves time to alter it if they so desired.

Making it personal doesn't help anything, and is a violation of Dakka rules. -Mannahnin

The largest and most glaring oversite/nerf is the non scalable faith system... Whether it is a 400pt game or a 6000 point game... Only ever D6 ? That is just silly.

Revarien wrote:The largest and most glaring oversite/nerf is the non scalable faith system... Whether it is a 400pt game or a 6000 point game... Only ever D6 ? That is just silly.

To be fair, not many armies can scale up to 6000 points using a single FoC chart. In Apoc, FoC is thrown out the window and you could increase D6 faith by dividing your forces into separate armies (1 Army per 2K?), and have them all allies. Although based on personal experience, Sisters of Battle alone don't tend to do well in apoc games. They often need allies to compensate their lack of range shooting and assault.

**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

**I tried so hard not to post in this thread....sigh**

Making it personal doesn't help anything.-Mannahnin


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

The problem with the quantity is that it's not reliably there when you need it. Do Blood Angels or Orks need Furious Assault as much on turn 1 as they do on turn 2? Do Space Wolves need Counter Assault as much on turn 7 as they do on turn 3? The same applies to Faith. If you could save that unnecessary Faith from Turn 1 until a later turn when you need to buff multiple units, that'd be amazing. Instead, you get it doled out equally on the turns when you can't or don't need to use it as you do on the key turns of the game, during which this system is simply not going to give you enough. Having the total be random (as low as 1) and only usable on your own turn is just adding insult to injury.

I'm all for waiting until the second half before pronouncing final judgment; maybe there'll be some amazing surprises in the point costs or wargear. But there's only so much they can realistically surprise us with at this point in the material remaining.

It wasn't meant just to be personal. I've editted it as it could have been taken that way. It's just the 100th time someone has brought up the scaling thing and I just had to spew out a response. I'm personally looking forward to the second half of the codex.

I hear you; that comment wasn't really directed at you, but your tone was a little sharp and I appreciate you being a good guy about it.

Melissia wrote:
No new models. Not even finecast recasts of our old, half-assed second edition Sisters models.

Those models were widely regarded as some of the best looking from 2nd edition and were certainly not half-assed. Old? Sure, but there are a good number of people that think they've held up pretty well. They may not be the belles of the ball anymore but they're certainly far from ugly.

Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

Hulksmash wrote:**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

**I tried so hard not to post in this thread....sigh**

Don't worry... I didn't take it personal

You said it yourself though: That is the average. Which over the course of many many games or even 1 game will work out to be just that, the average. Personally, I'd take a hard reliable number (sure I normally started with 9) over the 'average' of any one game, as I know at the one tourny I play in a year, I most certainly won't get the 'average' every game...

Personally I prefer to have hard numbers as opposed to a random die roll of help.

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them. You keep referring to them as an elite army when they've ALWAYS been inferior to vanilla marines in that aspect (and most others) and the meta for the past few years has been moving those standard marines into a solidly middle of the pack army in terms of eliteness. Where did you think nuns with guns were going to fit on that ladder with the recent shift to "every marine codex gets 2+ saves and power weapons as troops"?

warboss wrote:

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them.

If they are reduced to eight or nine points per model, they are horde-- what else would you call an army of cheap models which can have up to twenty members in their squads?

Oh wait.

You would call it a horde army. Yes

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them.

If they are reduced to eight or nine points per model, they are horde-- what else would you call an army of cheap models which can have up to twenty members in their squads?

Oh wait.

You would call it a horde army. Yes

Funny, but all those guard players running around with all veterans don't generally consider themselves a horde army and they're less armed/armored that an 8 or 9pt SOB. As for 20 model squads, don't you already get that for normal SOB squads? Are they "horde' now because of that? No. No one is forcing you to field them in 20 model squads regardless as your mech options are still available. They're just simply not the elite of the elite, best of the best army that is the single biggest factor holding the Imperium together YOU consider them to be. Welcome to the world of 40k codex design post 3rd edition (when your old rules were designed)... a world where GW lowers point costs and increases squad sizes in an attempt to get you to spend more.

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

Again though, decreasing a price doesn't make a model better. A grot given free grenades and reduced to 2 points is still a grot. Sisters aren't much different. The Grenades are somewhat of a red herring, as sisters are almost ALWAYS better off shooting than assaulting. A 10 model squad gets 21 WS3, S3 attacks on the charge. If I stand and shoot instead, I get 20 BS4 S4 AP5 shots. Why on earth would I want to charge?

You can reduce the cost of a sister, but having already reduced the power, availability and usefulness of Acts of Faith it isn't going to net you much. It just means I can throw down a few more bodies; and lets not kid ourselves, it will only be a few. Sisters are currently 11ppm. Let's go out on a limb and say they drop to 9ppm, which I suspect is a point low. Over 20 sisters you save 40 points, enough for 4 more sisters. It's not like we're gaining 50% models or anything, it will probably be less than 20%. A weak sister of battle is still weak. "Lots" (and I use the term very loosely) of weak sisters of battle are still week, there's just a few more.

Mythal wrote:What do people think the odds of an Exoricst buff are? Maybe giving an alternative large blast firing mode with lower ArPen, or making them S9 to finally deal with the whole 3% chance to kill AP14 thing?

At the moment the Exoricst is pretty one sided for a model with a points spend like that I'd say what it really needs is an alternative fire mode. Blast for hoard multi direct fire for tank killing.

Something like

Range Str AP Type

18"-48" 6 4 Ordanance Barage

Or

48" 9 2 Heavy 3

It really needs options as it is currently completely tactically inflexible and very much one sided. The second option could also be 18-48"

Just guessing really but that is what I want.

Kilkrazy wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Perhaps my post was a little inflammatory but it I mean to make a point about how silly it is to analyze a codex and then freak out about it, before we have even seen the whole thing, ...

It's true that the codex cannot be evaluated when only half of it has been published.

To call people a bunch of Chicken Littles is a bad way to get your point across, though, because you just antagonise people and they won't listen to what you have to say.

I suppose you're right, although I don't really think that those tI directed my comments toward would listen to what I have to say anyway. Otherwise this thread would not be a thirty-seven page circular argument.

I have gone back and edited any instances of "Chicken Little" with "people fearful of the unknown".

ceorron wrote:Range Str AP Type
18"-48" 6 4 Ordanance Barage
Or
48" 9 2 Heavy 3

You'd take the AP1 away? Watch out for an angry Melissia

I hope to be able to pick up a copy of the WD to look at at the end of next week - other than this and the Terrorgheist, is there anything else worth reading in there?

Redbeard wrote:
Bolters are range 24", not less than 18". And you're also discounting the role of other parts of the list. Seraphim become a forward assault-screening unit. Repentia, if more reasonably priced, serve as a counter-assault unit. Penitent engines are a shock-troop role that enemy assaulters need to get past before charging the line.

I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Yes? And? Horde orks are still viable (I think they got one of the top finishes at wargames con just a month ago), they have to slog several turns, and have significantly worse armour. Playing a horde army is a mentality shift. Yes, you lose models early. Keep your eye on the objectives. You give up minimal kill-points, and 20 suits of power armour, backed with meltaguns, are not easy to shift off objectives.

Here, we agree.

Bolters are only 24" when not moving, and at one shot per model. I say 18" because that's moving + rapid fire range. Less if you want the whole unit to rapid fire. Standing still and firing one shot per model strikes me as terrible, and it won't scratch a mech army. You'll do little but annoy ASM and similar units with that kind of firepower, and Repentia in this situation will be hard to control due to rage and fragility. Penitent Engines in this context are not going to survive either, as they ALSO have rage and without the saturation of Nuns-with-Guns-in-Boxes what are all the S5-7 weapons that can't harm AV13 going to shoot? I think a lot of the potential output of PE's but not unless there are a lot of Rhinos in front of them. I say the double-band formation is a problem not due to cover, but due to range. Bolters in 24" mode scare no one, and a double band won't allow rapid fire or even some of the 24" shots unless you want to clump terribly. And that's asking for it against a lot of armies.

Horde Orks work because they have mobile cover, assault 24" guns, and/or are good in melee combat. And that's assuming Exorcists are as generally useful as Lootas. Sisters have problems achieving all three. 20 models with 2 meltas are easy to shift, you assault them, win, and break them. Powerblobs probably can't do it, but most everybody else can. You just have to get past or survive that 18" doubletap range. And when it comes to KP, what about all those cheap specialist units? The Seraphim, the PEs, the Repentia (and likely their transport)? All fragile, all small, all KP.

On cost, I look at it this way. The last codex wasn't a meta-breaker. Could be cost, age, or lack of interest, but I believe it was lack of power and flexibility. I believe that they do well when good players take them not due to a strong codex, but lack of experience. But back to the power and flexibility point. Most of that power and flexibility came from faith. Now almost all the flexibility is gone, and a fair fraction (at least) of the power. Nothing really replaced that, so an army wide nerf begets an army wide cost break.

Hulksmash wrote:**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

**I tried so hard not to post in this thread....sigh**

As others have mentioned, the total number of attempts are higher, but I generally used very little in early turns and dumped my entire pool in a few turns of critical combat. Usually turn 3-4, and often 5+ faith per turn. Now if I take 3 Dominion squads and try to have them all use an Act, I've got a 50% chance of not having enough faith without taking a SC. Too much luck, not enough planning potential. Alternatively, early I have nothing to spend faith on turn 1 unless I have retributors or something odd happens. Most of my army won't even be in range until turn 2.

I'd like to see the Exorcist get a frag mode and go to D3+2 shots. But then I'd also like to roll for an Exorcist and not ALWAYS roll one miss and one failure to wound too.

Hulksmash wrote:**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

People keep saying this, you'll get MORE faith points and your'll use them MORE often. However, thats a slight misconception for two reasons- reason 1) you ONLY can use them on YOUR turn, unlike the old way when you used them when you NEEDED them, not just your turn. Reason 2) Your faith pool gets emptied at the end of your turn, every game turn. Who cares how many faith points you have on turn one(I highly doubt ANYONE is using them on turn one) and probably not on turn 2, becuase you may or may not be in range by then to be of use.

Turns 3-5 were always the money turns, which is why 10-12 was fine. Who cares if yoru averaging 21 when good chances are for turns 1 and 2 your not going to use them, or be able to use them effectively?

Number of faith points dont matter if you cant use them when necessary.

Turns 1-2 your likely to be using them with your Dominion Carmachu. The addition of scout means you'll be using faith early and fairly often. People are doing the same thing they normally do with a new book, they are thinking of it only in the context of the previous edition. It's understandable but your not taking the new into account.

Hulksmash wrote:Turns 1-2 your likely to be using them with your Dominion Carmachu. The addition of scout means you'll be using faith early and fairly often. People are doing the same thing they normally do with a new book, they are thinking of it only in the context of the previous edition. It's understandable but your not taking the new into account.

Doubtful. Your still not going to be using as much the first two turns. I took it into account you'll use if you dont take seraphim. so you might use 3 IF you take 3 dominions, and dont get your ride shot out from under you. Maybe. Your still not going to use them as much turns 1-2 as you would 3-5

Buzzsaw wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

How else would one abbreviate "Matthew Ward"?

The way Mat Ward does?

streamdragon wrote:

Redbeard wrote:me, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're playing the same game, you and I. The underlined part is hilariously obtuse. Of course they're not going to get within 12" of you. The range on most of their heavy weapons is way outside of that!

Perhaps we're not playing the same game. In my game, troops are used to hold objectives, and the primary threat that opposing tanks pose to my troops holding objectives is tank shocking them. In that respect, meltaguns and eviscerators provide a good deterrent to the opponent that tries to take me off my objective. I'm of the opinion that, barring stupid play on my part, my opponent isn't going to kill 20 power-armour bodies easily. And that the other elements of my list will deny them the opportunity to focus enough fire on the sisters to allow them to hold the objective.

Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

P.S. - Yes, there are still nid players in my area.

Melissia wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Sisters have never been an elite army.

Yes they have. This is the basis for every one of your misconceptions. Claiming Marines aren't elite is amusing, but ignorable.

Do you have a dictionary available? Perhaps you could look up elite?

Dictionary.com provides the following definitions:

Noun
1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
2. ( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.
3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.
4. a type, approximately 10-point in printing-type size, widely used in typewriters and having 12 characters to the inch. Compare pica1 .
–adjective
5.representing the most choice or select; best: an elite group of authors.

We can clearly ignore #3 and 4.

So, the rest of these definitions describe elite as meaning 'the best of anything'. But that's not true of the standard MEQ. The standard MEQ is the average troop in the game. Maybe in the fluff they're elite, but gamewise, not a chance. We've already established that when the argument was made that MEQs are by far the most common opponent you'll face.

Something cannot be both the most common and also the best of the group. Doesn't work like that. Marines are not elite in the game, they're average. Many models are below average, especially troops in xenos armies. But Marines, in the game, are the standard against which the effectiveness of weapons are measured. They're the standard against which models are compared. In short, they're the default. The Average. Not the elite.

Terminators are elite. Grey Knights are elite. Cult-marines are elite. Standard tactical or assault marines - not elite.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

In an objective game, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you.

Without the BoSL, that's not hard.

Sure it is. There are no negative modifiers for shooting attacks anymore. BoSL is essentially assault-only gear in 5th anyway. So your opponent has to come get you. Guardsmen aren't going to do that, and their vaunted AP3 pieplates aren't going to knock your unit out of cover either.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

You keep saying that. What credentials are you presenting to back this claim? I've placed in tournaments using sisters as a horde. I actually do know a thing or two about how this works. I've got an adepticon plaque in my basement from when my team ran horde sisters a few years ago.

I don't say this to brag, only to point out that, short of anything else, you and I disagree on this point. You're not going to convince me that your theory is correct because my actual experience has proven the contrary, against top-caliber opponents in a competitive setting. I may not convince you either, but have you even tried it, or are you just theorizing that it doesn't work? And, if you did try it, did you stick with it long enough to learn the nuances to playing sisters that way. Probably not.

As someone else stated, the reason most people haven't tried this is that sisters models are both expensive and old. (And heavy) I doubt anyone else posting in this thread has any experience with how running a 9 Penitient engine list works either. I do. I've also got experience putting 80 sisters on the table without any tanks, and winning games with them. If you haven't tried this, how do you know it doesn't work?

warboss wrote:Funny, but all those guard players running around with all veterans don't generally consider themselves a horde army

So? They're only ten models per squad. Vet guard isn't a horde army, not because of its durability, but because of its lack of numbers.

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

How else would one abbreviate "Matthew Ward"?

The way Mat Ward does?

You know, while normally I would give preference to a person regarding how they would like their name abbreviated, in Mr. Ward's case, I'll actually side with Wikipedia. Not because I consider them reliable, but because I'm willing to believe (or at least imply) Ward doesn't understand how to spell his own name.

Redbeard wrote:

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

You keep saying that. What credentials are you presenting to back this claim? I've placed in tournaments using sisters as a horde. I actually do know a thing or two about how this works. I've got an adepticon plaque in my basement from when my team ran horde sisters a few years ago.

I don't say this to brag, only to point out that, short of anything else, you and I disagree on this point. You're not going to convince me that your theory is correct because my actual experience has proven the contrary, against top-caliber opponents in a competitive setting. I may not convince you either, but have you even tried it, or are you just theorizing that it doesn't work? And, if you did try it, did you stick with it long enough to learn the nuances to playing sisters that way. Probably not.

As someone else stated, the reason most people haven't tried this is that sisters models are both expensive and old. (And heavy) I doubt anyone else posting in this thread has any experience with how running a 9 Penitient engine list works either. I do. I've also got experience putting 80 sisters on the table without any tanks, and winning games with them. If you haven't tried this, how do you know it doesn't work?

Well, I'll admit I had not seen this thread heading to this place... the place where someone resorts to an appeal to authority argument to win an argument over semantics.

I think, in all equanimity, it probably is time to close this thread, at least till the point costs come out and one side can shower the other with shame and vituperation, given that at least one side of the argument is freely admitting that they are not able to be convinced.

Redbeard wrote:
So, the rest of these definitions describe elite as meaning 'the best of anything'. But that's not true of the standard MEQ. The standard MEQ is the average troop in the game. Maybe in the fluff they're elite, but gamewise, not a chance. We've already established that when the argument was made that MEQs are by far the most common opponent you'll face.

Something cannot be both the most common and also the best of the group. Doesn't work like that. Marines are not elite in the game, they're average. Many models are below average, especially troops in xenos armies. But Marines, in the game, are the standard against which the effectiveness of weapons are measured. They're the standard against which models are compared. In short, they're the default. The Average. Not the elite.

Terminators are elite. Grey Knights are elite. Cult-marines are elite. Standard tactical or assault marines - not elite.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

Are they categorically Elite, such as with Terminators or Cult marines...?-No because within the confines of their army list they are rank and file, but this isn't the way anyone is using it in this conversation.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

How about that standing on one leg pose on the Penitent Engine on page 97 of the WD? Finecast?