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gr1m_dan wrote:I am looking at it glass half-full for the time being. That said I enjoy a new challenge with a few new rules here and there.

That being said there are things I will miss but things gained. I will miss my epic Jet-Cannoness with a 2++ bashing her way through tanks and units...for around 130points (off top of my head-ish).

However we will now be getting more AoF on average and activating more too.

Well, of course it's half full. They're pouring the other half next month.

Terrible joke aside, whilst I agree that a drop in points cost would make the army more viable, I can't help but feel disappointed that the individual sisters went down in power rather than up. It's completely aside from balance issues, but I would have prefered to see the army become more elite, rather than more horde. Still, there's always hope that there's a way to build it as a more elite force that will be revealed next month. Celestians as troops, for example.

Dysartes wrote:Out of interest, have Jacobus and Kyrinov been on the GW Online Store (in metal) at £10.25 for a while now (Witch Hunters HQ), or have they snuck back on since the release of this WD?

They've been up there for a few years that I can remember - they were just listed with priest stats.

I'm still clinging to the hope that new Acts of Faith are intentionally stackable. But I'm an incurable optimist.

Sisters players need to chill out until the next half of the dex comes out. It's too early to call it either way for the WD codex. It doesn't look half bad so far.

Non scaling faith points=Good news in low point tournaments. Sure it's bad news at 2,500, but it's good news at 1,500. The non scaling faith tools sisters for smaller scale battles, which is something sisters players have asked for previously in this threat when they rant on and on about how sisters are not intended to be a horde.

6+ invo on everything including vehicles roughly translates to a 16.6% damage reduction from heavy weapons, and it's especially useful on vehicles.

Acts of faith will pretty much go off on a 4+ as long as the squad leader is alive, and a 3+ is very good odds if the squad took a casualty or the right IC is attached

Battle Conclaves=CC Henchmen.

Ecclesiarchy Priests might be 1-3 per force org. If they have access to rad grenades battle conclaves would actually be nastier than GK henchmen. Even without grenades though an priest identical to an IG priest inside a unit of DCA and Crusaders would be nasty.

Sisters Repentia now only have standard rage, and thus can theoretically embark on a transport. Spirit of the Martyr also sounds useful.

Holy Fusillade on Dominion squads twin links their flamers and melta guns, plus the unit it's self has the scout USR. Outflanking Dominion squads with multiple meltas/flamers inside an outflanking immolator sounds nasty.

Seraphim sound promising. A rerollable 6+ invo is as good as a 5+, and rerollable faith checks makes a 4+ faith check pretty reliable. Rerolls to wound also sound nasty, especially with four S3 hand flamers in a unit.

Retritibutors may become very viable depending on how much their heavy weapons cost. If the cost drops to 5 for a HB and 10 for MM they are in business. Rending heavy bolters would also do well against the meta that includes a lot of AV11 and MEQ spam.

It's not over until the 2nd half of the codex comes out, and there is still plenty of time for the codex to become a nasty tier 1 codex or a total flop.

Someone with some sense at last!

Actually looking at what we've been given so far and how to use it instead of moaning about what we've lost.

As Schaden has pointed out - I expect to see Outflanking Dominion squads all over. 4 twin linked Meltas outflanking in a Immolator (with possible MM if you so wish) will be brutal against Mech and Tanks. It gives your opponent something extra to think about.

I didn't even notice that Repentia could ride in transports now, that's fething awesome! That seriously makes me giddy at the thought of running them in a mech army.

That aside, since I'm a casual player (or not player at all atm), I'm really excited about the modeling potential of plastic sisters. Speaking of, I hope they have a banner (and thus, a banner bearer) in the sisters squads, because I really like banner bearers for no real reason

Also, i'm thinking about making SoB Bikers if/when the plastic ever come out, sound like a good idea? I mean, I already have a SoB Dready and a super tank in the works, might as well make all the fun stuff I possibly can!

Dysartes wrote:Out of interest, have Jacobus and Kyrinov been on the GW Online Store (in metal) at £10.25 for a while now (Witch Hunters HQ), or have they snuck back on since the release of this WD?

They've been there since second edition.

schadenfreude wrote:It's too early to call it either way for the WD codex.

No it's not. Seraphim have gained some, but lost a lot more with the loss of their special Hit and Run rule and reduction of their initiative. Celestians are now completely ineffectual in an assault against any assault unit worth its salt without a Canoness to raise their initiative. Retributors will still be less than Exorcists, as before. The only units that got any flat buffs were dominions and St. Celestine-- when honestly the entire army needed one.

Tails9095 wrote:That aside, since I'm a casual player (or not player at all atm), I'm really excited about the modeling potential of plastic sisters.

It's a pity you aren't getting any then, not with this piece of crap anyway.

No new models. Not even finecast recasts of our old, half-assed second edition Sisters models.

The new models will have to come with the real codex, whenever it comes, not with this farce.

I lol'd hard Melissa, reading your post, refreshing and reading the next line, then again and again.

I'm aware we're probably gonna get fethed, it's GW, it's the companies unofficial job to feth with it's customers. But I can still plan

The best thing with Seraphims in Assault was the fact you can take an Eviscerator and tag a Cannoness along with them so the actual only good weapon in the squad in CC was going last anyway. S3 was always crap in assault too. At least we have some sort of redeemer with 1+ S with Celestians that can be STACKED. S6 Celestians with the right Faith + Initiative boost from Cannoness. Yes thank you.

I'll be running two Cannoness most likely - one with Seraphim and one with Celestians. Add the stackable buffs from Faith and voila.

Nothing will ever make you happy though Melissa (and yes, I love most of your Codex btw but c'mon GW would never do anything that serious!) so I can't really try and sway you round to the side of "Ok, it's different but hell to it, I am gonna work with it and do my tactical best to use it"

Ooooh, plastic sisters would be great for making my own Terminators too.... Dammit GW, work faster so I can give you my money

gr1m_dan wrote:S3 was always crap in assault too.

But hitting on a 3+ and hitting most enemies before you started taking wounds wasn't. Now we have to attach a Canoness to even bother using the unit.

gr1m_dan wrote:"Ok, it's different but hell to it, I am gonna work with it and do my tactical best to use it"

... considering that's what I've been doing with the already mediocre c:WH since third edition, I don't think it's that reasonable to beleive I'll suddenly stop.

When life gives you crap, you make crap-ade. Or something..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tails9095 wrote:Ooooh, plastic sisters would be great for making my own Terminators too.... Dammit GW, work faster so I can give you my money

Oh, the plastics are probably already mostly done (if not entirely so), but GW doesn't want to associate the models with this horrible abomination to 40k, so...

gr1m_dan wrote:Got my dice in front of me...

Imaginary Cannoness and imaginary Seraphim

Got 6 Faith points with Cannoness and 1 with Seraphim.

Got 4 off with Cannonness so +4 Initiative and Preferred Enemy for her and Seraphim. Got my Seraphim Faith off too so all re-roll any failed To Wound rolls in Shooting.

Got I7 Cannoness and I6 Seraphim.

This is at the assumed stackable Faith (which we assume because no where it tells we can't and it says all Faith can be tried multiple times. Old Codex we could try it once as it strictly said. This could change but for now I am playing it as so)

The new rules says 1d6 faith points for the entire army per turn. So I don't understand how you get 7 faith points for your 2 units.
As an aside how did you determine that the effects are stackable. I couldn't find a rule that says that you could do this and since the rules are permissive wouldn't you need to have a rule to that effect? If they are stackable doesn't that mean an IC with furious charge that joins a unit with furious charge would give everyone +2S and +2I?

augustus5 wrote:Perhaps my post was a little inflammatory but it I mean to make a point about how silly it is to analyze a codex and then freak out about it, before we have even seen the whole thing, ...

It's true that the codex cannot be evaluated when only half of it has been published.

To call people a bunch of Chicken Littles is a bad way to get your point across, though, because you just antagonise people and they won't listen to what you have to say.

Melissia wrote:..., it'd still be a gakky codex turning an elite army into a horde army

Sisters have never been an elite army. This is the basis of all your misconceptions. At 11 points per model, the basic Sister held the title for best basic troop for the points for most of 4th ed. But since then, every non-marine army has gotten a reduction in cost. Marines aren't an 'elite' army by the standards of this game, they're the mid-level army. Armies with more expensive troops are the elite armies (Grey Knights, all-nob orks, etc), Sisters are cheaper than marines, they cannot be considered elite when their base models cost less than those from the most-common faction.

Melissia wrote:Even at friggin' eight points per model that doesn't seem very scary to my Guard army-- they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

For that matter, they're no better than marines or grey knights either. But they cost less, so you can lose a bunch of them and still have your scoring units. Meanwhile, while those templates are concentrating on the sisters, the other elements of the Sisters army is closing with you and messing up your tanks.

Remember, just because you run your basic troops as a horde doesn't mean that you can't take anything else. And that's the point of having cheap basic troops - you still have points for other stuff.

Your 80 sisters don't need to kill anything in order to win a game for you. In a kill-point game, the guard player has to knock out 20 suits of power armour to earn a kill point. Against a MEQ player, they're probably getting the same kill point for ten, or even five marines, who as previously stated, are no harder to kill.

In an objective game, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

efarrer wrote:
If you honestly think there's a chance BS4 #+ armour saves with Bolters with frag and krak (irc) are going to be sub 10 points you're ignoring every other codex.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

Given that they're the basic troop in the army, and if tradition holds, unable to take a weapon with any real range, they've got to be cheap enough to take the casualties that are expected by getting into mid or short-range to be effective.

The comparison with vet guardsman discounts the ability of vet guard to impact the game from the safety of 48" range, if you buy them a rocket or lascannon and hunker them in cover. Sisters don't have that luxury, they have to close, and they're not that impressive once they get in combat.

Comparing with Stormtroopers, their armour is only slightly better, and Stormtroopers have a marine-killer gun, as well as a choice of special rules and deep strike capabilities to get them in position quickly. Stormtroopers also get the pistol and CCW (in essence, an extra attack) and the grenades.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think 9 points would be an appropriate cost for them, right now. 8 is probably too hopeful, although it would really emphasis the horde nature of the codex more.

The Grog wrote:
I can't agree. I can't help but see 4 squads of 20 Sisters much like I would see 4 squads of 20 Necron Warriors: a giant target. The difference is that the Warriors are more resistant to shooting. Too many melee units will sweep straight past your somewhat-less-than-18" engagement range straight to melee, where you will break and be run down.

Bolters are range 24", not less than 18". And you're also discounting the role of other parts of the list. Seraphim become a forward assault-screening unit. Repentia, if more reasonably priced, serve as a counter-assault unit. Penitent engines are a shock-troop role that enemy assaulters need to get past before charging the line.

If you cluster for mutual unit support, you'll be multi-charged unless you deploy in a double line which makes the rear unit mostly worthless.

I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Against shooting armies, your less-than-18" engagement range will again make you slog into long range fire for several turns before you can reply with anything but Exorcists, which will either be targeted first and killed (along with whatever fast movers you have) or be forced to hide until the horde makes shooting range.

Yes? And? Horde orks are still viable (I think they got one of the top finishes at wargames con just a month ago), they have to slog several turns, and have significantly worse armour. Playing a horde army is a mentality shift. Yes, you lose models early. Keep your eye on the objectives. You give up minimal kill-points, and 20 suits of power armour, backed with meltaguns, are not easy to shift off objectives.

As for the cost of a basic Sister, if it doesn't drop the army is dead.

Here, we agree.

Melissia wrote:
Not even finecast recasts of our old, half-assed second edition Sisters models.

I know you're mad, but do you really think the old models are "half-assed"? I find the very first sisters models are still fun to paint and easily surpass more recent models like the Arcos and Repentia in execution and clarity. Granted, they may not be fresh and new but to call them half-assed seems overly bitter. The WD codex including errors, and the fact there is no new models... half-assed.

I know I am still new to this forum, but I am not so new to SoB. And from what I have read of the new Codex, without knowing the points and wargear, or ny other real specifics, I am very excited to try them out. Some of the new Acts of faith along with the slight alterations to the Squads still seem veryattractive.

Running a Relentless Cannoness with a Retributer Squad with 4 HB Rending sounds awesome. Great for low AT. And if they can take a Rhino or Immolator. All the better. Even if it is for one mobile squad to hunt down targets with 2 Exorists still firing away.

Dominions with Scout!!! Thats huge! Four twin Linked Metlas Riding in an Immolator. Scouting ahead to close the distance. If you take three and get first turn. You can almost garuntee 3 popped Tanks First turn! And if you do not go first, You can infiltrate them and really make your opponent have to consider their arrival! Top that with the Battle Conclave, or Penit Engines Charging across the field. Your opponent will have so much to consider.

On First turn you scout yoru Immolators up and fire out 12 twin linked Meltas and screen the approach of your Penit Engines. While Your Exorsist Tanksare nailing any other armor left. And Retributers move around to clean up anything that was opened up. Firing 12 Relentless Rending HB shots acrss the field. Your Troops can bunker up and hold objectives. Its not the same as previous editions, But it is still very do able. Troops that can regroup instantly can be huge as well. Instead of being forced off an objective and chased off the board. you can turn around and unload with a hail of Bolter fire!

Redbeard wrote:me, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're playing the same game, you and I. The underlined part is hilariously obtuse. Of course they're not going to get within 12" of you. The range on most of their heavy weapons is way outside of that!

Redbeard wrote:I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

The comparison with vet guardsman discounts the ability of vet guard to impact the game from the safety of 48" range, if you buy them a rocket or lascannon and hunker them in cover. Sisters don't have that luxury, they have to close, and they're not that impressive once they get in combat.

So let me get this straight? I discount the ability of one veteran guardsman to take a heavy weapon and sit back, but you'll compare to normal guardsman (who can do the same)? Nice blinders.
As to "better stats" on Kabalite warriors, way to exaggerate. They've got +1 WS (the weakest stat in the game) and +2 I. That's it. In exchange they have 5+ armor instead of 3+. Night Vision is useful in occasionally 1 turn out of 6. "Better gun" is subjective. Poisoned 4+ vs. S4 is the better for T5 or higher enemies (so basically Nids) and worse for T3 or lower. Against MEQ (i.e., T4) it's the exact same.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think 9 points would be an appropriate cost for them, right now. 8 is probably too hopeful, although it would really emphasis the horde nature of the codex more.

While I'd love to see a 9ppm sister, 3+ armor alone says it's unlikely.

Redbeard wrote:I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Other than Orks, what "lightly armoured army" is charging you without shooting you to pieces first? Do you still have Nids players in your area or something?

Da Piper wrote:I know I am still new to this forum, but I am not so new to SoB. And from what I have read of the new Codex, without knowing the points and wargear, or ny other real specifics, I am very excited to try them out. Some of the new Acts of faith along with the slight alterations to the Squads still seem veryattractive.

Running a Relentless Cannoness with a Retributer Squad with 4 HB Rending sounds awesome. Great for low AT. And if they can take a Rhino or Immolator. All the better. Even if it is for one mobile squad to hunt down targets with 2 Exorists still firing away.

Agreed. I can see Rets becoming quite integral.

Dominions with Scout!!! Thats huge! Four twin Linked Metlas Riding in an Immolator. Scouting ahead to close the distance. If you take three and get first turn. You can almost garuntee 3 popped Tanks First turn! And if you do not go first, You can infiltrate them and really make your opponent have to consider their arrival! Top that with the Battle Conclave, or Penit Engines Charging across the field. Your opponent will have so much to consider.

On First turn you scout yoru Immolators up and fire out 12 twin linked Meltas and screen the approach of your Penit Engines. While Your Exorsist Tanksare nailing any other armor left. And Retributers move around to clean up anything that was opened up. Firing 12 Relentless Rending HB shots acrss the field. Your Troops can bunker up and hold objectives. Its not the same as previous editions, But it is still very do able. Troops that can regroup instantly can be huge as well. Instead of being forced off an objective and chased off the board. you can turn around and unload with a hail of Bolter fire!

Assuming you get first turn. I might favour keeping them in reserve and outflanking them, but I'll need to try it out before settling, naturally. The loss of the potential 3++ is going to hit bunkering sisters hard, but hopefully a drop in points cost will work around this. Don't forget that sisters already had the instant regroup power, though.

Da Piper wrote:I know I am still new to this forum, but I am not so new to SoB. And from what I have read of the new Codex, without knowing the points and wargear, or ny other real specifics, I am very excited to try them out. Some of the new Acts of faith along with the slight alterations to the Squads still seem veryattractive.

Which ones specifically? I only ask because really most seem so weak.

Da Piper wrote:
Running a Relentless Cannoness with a Retributer Squad with 4 HB Rending sounds awesome. Great for low AT. And if they can take a Rhino or Immolator. All the better. Even if it is for one mobile squad to hunt down targets with 2 Exorists still firing away.

Can't do that. The Command Squad is the one that gets Relentless and Move Through Cover, not the Canoness, and you can't join your Retributors to the Command Squad.

Da Piper wrote:
Dominions with Scout!!! Thats huge! Four twin Linked Metlas Riding in an Immolator. Scouting ahead to close the distance. If you take three and get first turn. You can almost garuntee 3 popped Tanks First turn! And if you do not go first, You can infiltrate them and really make your opponent have to consider their arrival! Top that with the Battle Conclave, or Penit Engines Charging across the field. Your opponent will have so much to consider.

While I agree that scouting Dominions makes them way, way more useful, I have to disagree with your other assessment.

If you try to outflank them (scout) you don't show up until turn 2 at best, and not necessarily even near the fighting. And seeing as the decision to deploy and scout or to outflank is made during deployment, you have no idea who will be going first. Don't get me wrong, I love scouts (Wolf Scouts and Kommandos always make my lists) but it's a bit simpler than you make it out to be. And as for PEs charging across, they're still armor 11 open topped. And as they're squadrons, an Immobilized result is as good as a Destroyed result. Also keep in mind that Rage means you can't exactly control where they go. :-\

Yes they did have the auto regroup power. But if I am not mistaken. The Act of Faith negates any conditions that would stop a normal regroup. IE enemy within 6 inches and such. And being able to overcome those issues can still be a great advantage. Thats why I considered it a bonus.

As for Dominions, you normally know who is going first and setting up first before deployment. The only fear would be having the first turn stolen from you and Deep striking armies. In those cases you can hold in reserve. Or use the scout move to get the Dominions out of harms way early.

But regardless, I think the potential is still there fo rthe SoB to be a viable army.

Da Piper wrote:Yes they did have the auto regroup power. But if I am not mistaken. The Act of Faith negates any conditions that would stop a normal regroup. IE enemy within 6 inches and such. And being able to overcome those issues can still be a great advantage. Thats why I considered it a bonus.

The previous power made them Fearless, which allowed them to auto-regroup regardless of conditions as well. The new power is something of a mixed bag. It allows the rerolling of "1"s, but no longer makes you Fearless. You can't have it stop you from breaking in CC, for instance, to prevent being wiped out in a sweeping advance.

As for Dominions, you normally know who is going first and setting up first before deployment. The only fear would be having the first turn stolen from you and Deep striking armies. In those cases you can hold in reserve. Or use the scout move to get the Dominions out of harms way early.

But regardless, I think the potential is still there fo rthe SoB to be a viable army.

I stand corrected. Been playing a lot of Fantasy lately. And like I said, I LOVE my scouts in other armies. The Dominions are one of the few units that I feel was buffed in this book, although the loss of some of the Acts of Faith (most notably Divine Guidance) does detract from that somewhat.

@Da Piper: There's also a 1 in 6 chance of the opponent stealing the initiative, don't forget.

@streamdragon: Personally, I prefer the new twin-linked AoF on dominions, especially if they're going to be toting melta.

htj wrote:@Da Piper: There's also a 1 in 6 chance of the opponent stealing the initiative, don't forget.

@streamdragon: Personally, I prefer the new twin-linked AoF on dominions, especially if they're going to be toting melta.

Yes I realize that, But that is a danger to any Scout adance for any Army. In that case you can still use the Scout move to regroup and pull your forces back to help protect your army where needed.

The Twin Linked AoF on the Dominions is just to good to ignore. I liked the option I saw earlier. Taking one unit with two Flamers and two Meltas. This was you have Twin linked Flamers to help against a Horde of units in cover.

streamdragon wrote:

Redbeard wrote:me, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're playing the same game, you and I. The underlined part is hilariously obtuse. Of course they're not going to get within 12" of you. The range on most of their heavy weapons is way outside of that!

Redbeard wrote:I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

The comparison with vet guardsman discounts the ability of vet guard to impact the game from the safety of 48" range, if you buy them a rocket or lascannon and hunker them in cover. Sisters don't have that luxury, they have to close, and they're not that impressive once they get in combat.

So let me get this straight? I discount the ability of one veteran guardsman to take a heavy weapon and sit back, but you'll compare to normal guardsman (who can do the same)? Nice blinders.
As to "better stats" on Kabalite warriors, way to exaggerate. They've got +1 WS (the weakest stat in the game) and +2 I. That's it. In exchange they have 5+ armor instead of 3+. Night Vision is useful in occasionally 1 turn out of 6. "Better gun" is subjective. Poisoned 4+ vs. S4 is the better for T5 or higher enemies (so basically Nids) and worse for T3 or lower. Against MEQ (i.e., T4) it's the exact same.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think 9 points would be an appropriate cost for them, right now. 8 is probably too hopeful, although it would really emphasis the horde nature of the codex more.

While I'd love to see a 9ppm sister, 3+ armor alone says it's unlikely.

Redbeard wrote:I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Other than Orks, what "lightly armoured army" is charging you without shooting you to pieces first? Do you still have Nids players in your area or something?

You must understand, when we point out that armor is one of, if not the most expensive stats in the game for infantry, Red isn't evaluating it in a rational context, but with the following in mind;

Redbeard wrote:

The Grog wrote:
As for the cost of a basic Sister, if it doesn't drop the army is dead.

Here, we agree.

He recognizes that the army as it was is kaput, and is flailing about trying to find a way to save it given the window of what is still unknown. That it requires a massive discount to a traditionally expensive stat then requires further rationalizations; such as the notion that a splinter rifle is "better" then a bolter.

Is a splinter rifle better then a bolter at some things? Yes, but saying it's flat out "better" ignores the fact that it's also worse at other things; to point out but 2 of them, splinter weapons wound t3 infantry on 4, while sister's bolters wound DE on 3's, and while splinter weapons are totally useless at any armor facing of any vehicle, bolters can at least glance armor 10 (which includes, of course, every single DE transport). Splinter rifles make kabelite warriors worse when they are fighting Sisters/guard and, oh yeah, other DE and Eldar armies.

Moreover, it's pretty telling that when Red presents his "keep hope alive" arguments that justify 8-9 point sisters, he ignores the best example of pricing (which I've now presented 3 times);

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Codex Grey Knights not only gives us a pricing model for a basic human statline with the warrior acolyte, which, let us note, is superior to the above mentioned guard examples because: there are no special rules, nor additional equipment on warrior acolytes, they are simple their statline and whatever you buy for them, nor do they have to problem (which you have with IG Vets) that the cost per unit includes a mandatory upgrade character. Beyond that, the GK codex also has the virtues of being the most recent codex, and... oh yeah, it's written by the same guy writing this codex.

Of course, having decided that Sisters can only be viable as a horde army, the fact that the most recent codex (by the same author) puts 9 points as the cost of an Acolyte in Carapace armor with a bolter (note, no frag/krak grenades, BS3 instead of 4 as well) is... inconvenient.

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

How else would one abbreviate "Matthew Ward"?

htj wrote:@Da Piper: There's also a 1 in 6 chance of the opponent stealing the initiative, don't forget.

@streamdragon: Personally, I prefer the new twin-linked AoF on dominions, especially if they're going to be toting melta.

I certainly agree that TL-ing the Meltaguns will be fantastic. For the Flamers though, AP1 was more useful than Twin-Linking. I suppose I can get past the drastically reduced usefulness of my Ez-Bake Lite, IF we get HFlamers on Retributors AND IF we can take Exorcists in squadrons so I can justify actually take Retributors. Still, I think a 3rd unit of Exorcists would be more useful than the Retributors. :-\ That way you can fire on more targets with the Exorcists, like we do now.

Yeah, that's a tasty unit and no mistake. Assuming everything works out all right and you take first turn, it could really cause havoc in the enemy lines. Hopefully it'll come in at a nice cost too, so that it won't be too devastating if they're lost on the first turn. A battle plans no fun if it can be knocked out on the first turn, after all.


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I really doubt we'll see the exorcists in squadrons. Fluff wise, they're about as rare as manticores and deathstrikes, and those were one per FOC choice in Guard when everything else was in squadrons.

htj wrote:
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I really doubt we'll see the exorcists in squadrons. Fluff wise, they're about as rare as manticores and deathstrikes, and those were one per FOC choice in Guard when everything else was in squadrons.

Oh, I agree with you. It's just about the only way I could justify taking Retributors over an Exorcist though. Over the course of the game I feel like the Exorcist will do more damage than even the Heavy Flamer EZ-Bake, which has a tendency to die after actually flaming stuff.

Redbeard wrote:Sisters have never been an elite army.

Yes they have. This is the basis for every one of your misconceptions. Claiming Marines aren't elite is amusing, but ignorable.

For that matter, they're no better than marines or grey knights either. But they cost less, so you can lose a bunch of them and still have your scoring units. Meanwhile, while those templates are concentrating on the sisters, the other elements of the Sisters army is closing with you and messing up your tanks.

And thus you lose because you cannot cap points.

In an objective game, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you.

Without the BoSL, that's not hard.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

Bolters are range 24", not less than 18".

To fire at 24", you have to be not moving. Which means you're vulnerable to assault by any number of units.


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Dr Mathias wrote:do you really think the old models are "half-assed"?

Yes, actually. I don't like the design of the Sororitas armor.

I also happen to dislike John Blanche's so-called "art". The two are possibly connected.

What do people think the odds of an Exoricst buff are? Maybe giving an alternative large blast firing mode with lower ArPen, or making them S9 to finally deal with the whole 3% chance to kill AP14 thing?

All rumors are sayin gthere is no change. But I agree with them needing a Pie plate option. It woudl be a great addition to there role in the back lines.

I would like S9 and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuut it's incredibly unlikely.