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3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party

Actually I would say quote 3 is the most provitive. The style of Marines (MEq is a term in common parlance for a reason) is something that shapes game design, list construction, and Meta performance more than nearly anything else, as well as GW's biggest sellers and the ones they put the most effort into.

That sounds pretty elite to me.

Redbeard wrote:Perhaps we're not playing the same game. In my game, troops are used to hold objectives, and the primary threat that opposing tanks pose to my troops holding objectives is tank shocking them. In that respect, meltaguns and eviscerators provide a good deterrent to the opponent that tries to take me off my objective. I'm of the opinion that, barring stupid play on my part, my opponent isn't going to kill 20 power-armour bodies easily. And that the other elements of my list will deny them the opportunity to focus enough fire on the sisters to allow them to hold the objective.

So in your games, people tank shock right from turn 1, instead of peppering you with shooting for multiple turns and zooming in at the last possible moment? All of a sudden your MG/Evis is holding off at least 4 turns of shooting, and they're deciding not to do the last turn rush? No, of course it's not. But keep pretending otherwise for the sake of your argument.

Redbeard wrote:
Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

Might want to put it back in your pants, no one is impressed.

aka_mythos wrote: Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

Are they categorically Elite, such as with Terminators or Cult marines...?-No because within the confines of their army list they are rank and file, but this isn't the way anyone is using it in this conversation.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

There's a fundamental disconnect in your argument in that Melissia and others are complaining about the RULES presented, not the fluff. Fluff =/= Rules. If fluff were equal to rules then marines would be the most affordable army ever as 1 marine is worth 100 guardsmen. Just because one sister saves a planet with the power of her faith and a bolt pistol in some Black Library story doesn't mean she gets much in the way of super powers in the tabletop game. No one is arguing that they're not elite in the fluff when compared to the unwashed masses of humanity in the imperium that toil for years without notice. When people can field hundreds of unarmed BS1/WS1 hive dwellers as an army and a marine army consists of a max of 5 marines, only then will a few squads of SOB will be elite on the tabletop as well as fluff. Unfortunately, that NEVER has translated onto the tabletop.

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

Oh silly troll... er.. supermutant, when will you stop posting things that have no credible source and more importantly, when will other dakkaites realize this?
You silly nightkin, you have no inside info.

This sisters codex IS the sisters codex. No printed book version will come out. HQ's will be finecasted but power armor sister units will be plastic in 5 per box with barely enough wargear to qualify for any of the power armor squads. It will be similar to how a PA grey knights box can be used for purifiers, strike squad, ect.

terranarc wrote:

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

Oh silly troll... er.. supermutant, when will you stop posting things that have no credible source and more importantly, when will other dakkaites realize this?
You silly nightkin, you have no inside info.

If you're going to call someone out, at least be right.

This sisters codex IS the sisters codex.

Wrong.

No printed book version will come out.

Wrong again.

HQ's will be finecasted

Partially right, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

but power armor sister units will be plastic in 5 per box with barely enough wargear to qualify for any of the power armor squads. It will be similar to how a PA grey knights box can be used for purifiers, strike squad, ect.

Wrong.
Power Armor Sister units are 5/sprue. Two sprues to a box, by all reliable accounts. There's multiple sprues, from what I've been hearing from people who aren't completely daft.
A 'main' sprue similar to the sprue you get in a Tactical Marine box for the Tactical Marines.
A 'command' sprue similar to the sprue you get in a command squad, where there's parts for a 'sergeant' and two special weapon choices.
A sprue for 'heavies' which is essentially a Sister Devastator sprue, cut roughly the same as the current Devastator sprue.
A sprue for Seraphim.

Dr Mathias wrote:How about that standing on one leg pose on the Penitent Engine on page 97 of the WD? Finecast?

You mean the same Penitent Engine on page 51 of codex Witch Hunters with a picture taken at a different angle?

Yeah, that theory has already been debunked. It's not a new model.

My WD still hasn't arrived - I guess the plan to shaft subscribers is now in full force...

aka_mythos wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
So, the rest of these definitions describe elite as meaning 'the best of anything'. But that's not true of the standard MEQ. The standard MEQ is the average troop in the game. Maybe in the fluff they're elite, but gamewise, not a chance. We've already established that when the argument was made that MEQs are by far the most common opponent you'll face.

Something cannot be both the most common and also the best of the group. Doesn't work like that. Marines are not elite in the game, they're average. Many models are below average, especially troops in xenos armies. But Marines, in the game, are the standard against which the effectiveness of weapons are measured. They're the standard against which models are compared. In short, they're the default. The Average. Not the elite.

Terminators are elite. Grey Knights are elite. Cult-marines are elite. Standard tactical or assault marines - not elite.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

Are they categorically Elite, such as with Terminators or Cult marines...?-No because within the confines of their army list they are rank and file, but this isn't the way anyone is using it in this conversation.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

SO if the sisters can recruit from the space marine planets which I doubt then they only have the elite and no gene seed which is super elite.

thats why they are a horde army because they can recruit from the universe and there are alot of people in the universe of their numbers should be in the hundred of million if you consider one planet to have 100 billion and the whole universe will have 100 billion billon billon people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slinky wrote:My WD still hasn't arrived - I guess the plan to shaft subscribers is now in full force...

its true no suscriber in my local area have recieved their WD. Its just stupid.

So now that I have got a chance to spend some quality time with the magazine, I am more interested in seeing what part two brings, but I am still not optimistic about the direction.

1) Unless there are some crazy point costs in the next codex I cannot see any reason to fill heavy slots with anything but exorcists and FA slots with Dominions. As much as I love the Seraphim, they would have to be noticeably cheaper than dominions with there current rules or have some special Seraphim related war-gear to justify them. Same with retributor squads. Sure rending heavy bolters are nice, but with the unreliability of faith points, I would rather have exorcists. Also, what good is divine guidance if you have a 4 multi-melta retributor squad? (which brings me to point 3)

2) uriah Jacobs in every list. Since he allows you to reroll your faith points each turn, there is no reason not to take him. Also, it makes it less likely that there will be wargear that does the same. My guess is that we will see him a lot with the battle conclaves.

3) This list could be a lot better if they switched some of the Acts of Faith around. Divine Guidance on Celestians, Hand of the Emperor on Battle Sisters, and Endless Crusade on Retributors would make this army a lot more exciting again (Honestly, this version of light of the emperor and Spirit of the Martyr don't seem that worth it.) Even with the unreliable number of faith points, matching up the acts a little better would give us a dynamic army.

4) The ability to stack acts is, at best, a novelty. Even if you had the faith to push Hand of the Emperor multiple times, getting a single unit of sisters up to p9 attacks just isn't worth it in most cases. Even if it was, getting enough faith and enough of the acts to go off in the turn where it would is unlikely. You are better off spending the faith on your dominions. The Passion might be worth doubling up on in some cases. After all, a command squad acting before marines could make a big difference if the squad your canoness is in has a few power weapons, but it is still pretty specialized. Spirit of the Martyr just flat out wouldn't work. They actually worded that act well.

Like others have said, we are sisters players. We will take this list and give it our best. I just wish GW would return the favor. This could have been a much more exciting army than the first half of the codex would let us believe.

streamdragon wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Perhaps we're not playing the same game. In my game, troops are used to hold objectives, and the primary threat that opposing tanks pose to my troops holding objectives is tank shocking them. In that respect, meltaguns and eviscerators provide a good deterrent to the opponent that tries to take me off my objective. I'm of the opinion that, barring stupid play on my part, my opponent isn't going to kill 20 power-armour bodies easily. And that the other elements of my list will deny them the opportunity to focus enough fire on the sisters to allow them to hold the objective.

So in your games, people tank shock right from turn 1, instead of peppering you with shooting for multiple turns and zooming in at the last possible moment? All of a sudden your MG/Evis is holding off at least 4 turns of shooting, and they're deciding not to do the last turn rush? No, of course it's not. But keep pretending otherwise for the sake of your argument.

Stop being obtuse. Of course they're not tank shocking on turn one. But, as you said, they're shooting a few random shots downfield. Killing 20 models in power armour, especially in cover, isn't something you accomplish with a peppering of fire. The threat to a large unit of sisters isn't that they'll be shot to death, ever. It's that they'll be charged and swept (which you can mitigate with the use of other, more combat-equipped units), or that they'll lose control of the objective with late-turn tank shocks.

Redbeard wrote:
Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

Might want to put it back in your pants, no one is impressed.

I'm not trying to impress you. But you seem intent on insulting my understanding of the game and ability to play it. You want to disagree with me, that's fine. But when you start throwing around comments like "I guess you're not playing the same game", I have to wonder, are you one of the few people with a better track record than me - are you someone I can learn from - or are you a sequestered basement dweller who's running his mouth with no real-world experience to back it up?

Marthike wrote:However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

The average Space Marine chapter doesn't recruit from the elite of the elite. What they do is more like going to a school and picking whichever bully comes back with the most lunch money. If you want recruits in good physical shape that are young enough to not reject the implants it works, more or less. But it doesn't get you recruits with the slightest idea of how to operate in a squad, tactics, or how to maintain and operate any military equipment more complex than a sharp stick. The various forms of brainwashing Space Marine recruits are subjected to isn't just a formality - it's essential when you're picking people whose defining character trait is "Does not play well with others".

Marthike wrote:However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

SO if the sisters can recruit from the space marine planets which I doubt then they only have the elite and no gene seed which is super elite.

thats why they are a horde army because they can recruit from the universe and there are alot of people in the universe of their numbers should be in the hundred of million if you consider one planet to have 100 billion and the whole universe will have 100 billion billon billon people.

Ultramar (and the planets of the Ultramarine empire) are "the harshest and most difficult to live on planets"? The planet visited by the Imperial Fists in Sons of Dorn falls under that heading?

Also, the Marines only recruit male aspirants, which would theoretically allow SoB to recruit female aspirants from the same worlds.

As was previously stated, there are (assuming no retcon) less SoB than there are Space Marines, and certainly not the "hundred of million" you suggest.

3x Dominions are almost needed for your 3 FA slots unless running 2 squads of 10 seraphim, then I'd still run a unit of dominions. Scout with 5 twin linked melta (1 combi) or 5 twin linked flamers (1 combi), and including the transport, an Immolator with Multimelta or Heavy flamer.

So you could run 3 Dominion squads with 5 melta and a 50/50 shot at Twin Linked faith, then Followed by a Twin Linked Multi Melta from an Immolator.

Vice Versa can be done with Flamers, 5x flamer with Immolator and heavy flamer for anti troop.

Sounds like Celestians in a command squad will get FNP, and probably the ability to take 1 or 2x Multi Meltas or Maybe heavy bolters, their act of faith gives relentless so it would lead one to believe so.

With 2 acts of faith and a cannoness attached with celestains one can get 1+ int, rereoll to hit, 1 str and fearless giving a 4/4/4/3/1/4/2/9 stat line for a celestian, and for cannoness with blessed weapon 5/5/6/3/3/5/3/10
in close combat.

Seraphim now are an amazing shooting unit with reroll to wound and 2 hand flamers, with the ability to shoot squads, weaken them, take a charge, and then hit and run out, shooting the squad, or another target, rinse and repeat. A rereoll 6+ invul gives survibility, and we don't even know what upgrades they can take yet, Krak make them able to take out vehicles.

Also, looks like Retributors can take heavy flamers now.

Think 4x heavy flamers with rending in a transport.
I'm thinking maybe, it's not going to be auto exorcist for heavy support?

Looks like a great change so far, I'm thinking 8-10 pts a model per sister.

I just picked up the WD yesterday, and I was impressed with the rules.

SabrX wrote:

Dr Mathias wrote:How about that standing on one leg pose on the Penitent Engine on page 97 of the WD? Finecast?

You mean the same Penitent Engine on page 51 of codex Witch Hunters with a picture taken at a different angle?

Yeah, that theory has already been debunked. It's not a new model.

Thanks for pointing that out, I was worried that the PE would be Finecast and not plastic on the eventual release of the official printed Codex.

Sisters have never been an elite army. This is the basis of all your misconceptions. At 11 points per model, the basic Sister held the title for best basic troop for the points for most of 4th ed. But since then, every non-marine army has gotten a reduction in cost. Marines aren't an 'elite' army by the standards of this game, they're the mid-level army. Armies with more expensive troops are the elite armies (Grey Knights, all-nob orks, etc), Sisters are cheaper than marines, they cannot be considered elite when their base models cost less than those from the most-common faction.

This must be the single best comment in the entire thread.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

Given that they're the basic troop in the army, and if tradition holds, unable to take a weapon with any real range, they've got to be cheap enough to take the casualties that are expected by getting into mid or short-range to be effective.

This is most probably what will happen.
Dirt cheap basic sister minis but with a penalty in point cost for the army overall as specialist units that cost more need to fill in the weaknesses the cheap bolter bodies lack.

Codex Grey Knights not only gives us a pricing model for a basic human statline with the warrior acolyte

Irrelevant as it is completely taken out of its own internal army codex context.
You are also "forgetting" the GK henchmen cost includes what and how other things around them work and are priced and also what options said henchemn do have. For example I would fully expect to pay more or less points per henchmen to be floating along with the density of special wargear and weapons they can or cant take.

You pay 6p for an ork and only 1 in 10 can take a special wargear, I would expect to pay more should 1 in 3 orks be able to take wargears instead. Just as with the kabalite vs true born or the various wych alternatives.

Sister cost will also depend on the density of their wargear options in the squad. Can you minmax them or are they intended as the cheap bread and butter base for the SoB army.

Yes they have. This is the basis for every one of your misconceptions. Claiming Marines aren't elite is amusing, but ignorable.

Nope and neither are marines "elite. Marines are the jack of all trade army, this is widely accepted. The SM player almost always needs to face specialist units that are better at what they do themselves but lack in the generic can-do-all the marines have.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

For 11p a piece they were certainly not meant as being the lower model army like for example SM at 15p were/are.
They were the middle way army, less horde then cheap orks but more then armies with 15p base troops.
Certainly far from as elite as SM and SM arent particularily elite in themselves, they are as said, a solid hitting can-do-all-pretty-well army.

I also happen to dislike John Blanche's so-called "art". The two are possibly connected.

John Blanche is the single worst thing to happen to the whole 40k universe but I think I´m in the minority to think that.

The largest and most glaring oversite/nerf is the non scalable faith system... Whether it is a 400pt game or a 6000 point game... Only ever D6 ? That is just silly.

To powerful in smaller games while unplayable in apoc games so it seems but then again apoc doesnt count from the standpoint of the 40k army codex.

The problem with the quantity is that it's not reliably there when you need it. Do Blood Angels or Orks need Furious Assault as much on turn 1 as they do on turn 2? Do Space Wolves need Counter Assault as much on turn 7 as they do on turn 3? The same applies to Faith. If you could save that unnecessary Faith from Turn 1 until a later turn when you need to buff multiple units, that'd be amazing. Instead, you get it doled out equally on the turns when you can't or don't need to use it as you do on the key turns of the game, during which this system is simply not going to give you enough. Having the total be random (as low as 1) and only usable on your own turn is just adding insult to injury.

Maybe GW plans to make the army as a whole actually work with this D6 per turn concept with the play style being altered to fit.
Who knows, miracles to happen some times lol

Those models were widely regarded as some of the best looking from 2nd edition and were certainly not half-assed. Old? Sure, but there are a good number of people that think they've held up pretty well. They may not be the belles of the ball anymore but they're certainly far from ugly.

The models still look very good, to call them half assed is simply ignorant and/or being overly coloured by hate directed elsewhere.
I am still unable to sell my SoB minis despite not using them just because they look so cool that I am always thinking to use them later for other things, maybe henchemn in my GK armies.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

Thus it isnt about anything else other then your personal opinion that the sisters army were an elite army and now are a horde army?
Well many people disagree with this assessment and also the fluff behind it so just let it be and agree to disagree.

Many people were pissed about how the GK were altered from super elite to horde, can I call them horde by the way, according to your arguments I could very well do that since filling up an army with 70 GKs, all that are armed with stormbolters, force weapons AND guns that can pop tanks AND having the mobility to close in, move and shoot and also score...must surely make them a horde army right?
Sadly this setup would just fail on the table no matter how hordy it looks on the paper so please calm down and see what the second part will bring with it.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them.

This!

If they are reduced to eight or nine points per model, they are horde-- what else would you call an army of cheap models which can have up to twenty members in their squads?

Look up the GK example above.
Its not that simple as just pointing to the point cost of a basic trooper and yelling hooooorde!
It all depends how the rest of the army is priced and what other units will typically be needed to fill in the holes that an eventual dirt cheap sister troop mini cannot do.

Look at the space wolves as an example, they can be said to be a horde (using SM standards that is). Dirt cheap troop minis that are better at what they do then their vanilla equivalents BUT...
The army then needs to fill in the holes left by the cheap troop minis and this eats up points. Want to take a hammernator squad to cover melee from nasties that the cheap troops cannot do then you shell out so many points that everything saved by the cheaps is null and void and you even have t lower their numbers thus making the on paper horde army not being so much hordish at all.

I think a typical soob army might very well have a core of 2-4 standard to big troop squads and then piling up with the rest of the elites, fasts, heavies etc and this is ok, sisters arent as few and elite-ish as marines, not in the fluff (numbers) and not in the rules (points).
They are sure not as numerous as guards and orks and gaunts but then I cannot see GW pricing the basic sister at freaking 5-6 points per piece either.

At the moment the Exoricst is pretty one sided for a model with a points spend like that I'd say what it really needs is an alternative fire mode. Blast for hoard multi direct fire for tank killing.

The excorcist should absolutely not go up to S9 but it needs an alternative ammunition loadout. Maybe something that mimics the thunderfire cannon or an anti psycher hit/blast like the GKs have, that would be fluffy too.
The AP1 is fun and adds to its originality so I hope that stays.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

Not even in the fluff they arent. They are elite in the same sense that stormtroopers are elite in mody an dthen some more in mind and then get quality wargear.
Their elitedness comes mostly from their mindset, never breaking but even now the fluff is being erroded on that with thedark heresy books (especially the info on sisters in the deamon hunters rpg book).
This is of course irrelevant to the discussion but since we are talking about "elite"...

You keep saying that. What credentials are you presenting to back this claim? I've placed in tournaments using sisters as a horde. I actually do know a thing or two about how this works. I've got an adepticon plaque in my basement from when my team ran horde sisters a few years ago.

lol I have been steamrolled by horde sisters a couple of times, doesnt matter what people tell me, I know when I see a horde in front of me on the table and then promptly get beaten by it

So? They're only ten models per squad. Vet guard isn't a horde army, not because of its durability, but because of its lack of numbers.

So are retributors, seraphim and dominions!

Just shows how simple unit squad numbers cant answer everyhting. where by the way, goes the limit for elite, horde and "normal" when we talk unit sizes?
Veteran guardsmen are 10 but so are vanguard veteran marines, are those both units just as elite then?

How about black templars, oh no they have 20 strong troop squads, someone stop the presses, the BT is a horde army!

...eh, no!

Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

As do everyone else Mythos, as do everyone else. You need to take his comment in its context.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

Using fluff can be a double edged sword, this is why we need more clear codex fluff by GW or it will all boil down to an never ending bible interpretaion hole war.

I can take the same elite selection argument and turn it in favor of the SM for example.
How big population pool does the ecclestariarchy have to select said sisters from vs that of the astartes and imperial guard stormtroopers?
The shrine worlds alone go through more people then any other organization in the whole galaxy so naturally the numbers of quality females for sister selection is greater. How many marines or stormtroopers would we have should for example astartes recruiters sit at the shrine worlds looking for candidates amongst the endless trails of pilgrims?
Are the average recruit the church selects from born, raised, bread and survived on a death world?

What is the death and attrition rate amongst the astartes and stormtroopers candidates vs the sister trainees? Does the church really need to rely and depend its sole existance on the quality of an aspirant like the chapters do in entrusting their geneseed onto a candidate and thereby killing of almost everyone chosen for selection?

We dont know so discussion is pointless.

What we do know is that the Sob can be played as an elite army and they can also be played as a horde army. Just as the GK army can consist of 70 PAGKS it can consist of 12 paladins, both have their drawbacks and advantages but if pure fluff is to be taken into the equation and used as excuse there is absolutely no, zero, zip, nada comparison between what is basically a normal, albeit extremelly well selected human from an equally selected one but that benefits from arcane biological implants and a couple more decades of combat experience and training on average. Table top elitedness in all its glory but fluffwise it´s not even close.

On the TT a SoB army can be made super elite, small hard hitting with specialist squads and who knows, maybe GW will let them alter the FoC and spread scoring units beyond troops, that would be fun. Such an army could very well be made more elite then the average GK ditto. My own wishes are that GW make several play styles possible to cover for peoples varied tastes.

Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

Might want to put it back in your pants, no one is impressed.

His resume is certainly more telling then yours for obvious reasons.
You "guess" he cant play the game but what have you accomplished yourself other then theory debating someone with tournaments under his belt?

Personally I dont care if someone is "wrong" or right (doesnt agree with me) but if said person has something to back up his claims then I damn well listen. Sure the pride gets a knock but I also learn. You should try it.

Ok, I have to ask this. Why are people so pleased with the Dominions' AoF making their weapons Twin-Linked? To exemplify why I don't see it as that useful, I'll compare to two units that can already pretty much do what Dominions are used for already.

First is the 4 (5 w/ a Combi) Meltaguns in an Immolator. With that many shots, you are already likely to hit with 3-4 of them most of the time. Is burning an AoF to get that extra 1 or 2 to hit going to be worth it most of the time? I don't think so. A unit that already does this are an IG Vet Squad in a Chimera. BS4 with only 3 Meltaguns is usually reliable enough to get 1-2 hits and some desirable result with being Melta and all. And that's generally without their order to re-roll misses as they are usually either in a Chimera and can't receive orders and/or out of range of an officer to give said order anyways.

Second is the 4 (5) Flamers in an Immolator. With good template coverage, most units are already going to be taking enough wounds to either die outright or be rendered combat ineffective short of either large high T, multiple wound units, or those with FNP, or possibly Paladins. This is where Twin-Linking to re-roll failed to wounds would actually get some use IMO, but there is already a unit that does this just as well with very good results. The humble IG PCS with 4 Flamers in a Chimera. Again without orders, or AoF in the SoB case, 4 overlapping Flamer templates are usually sufficient.

Finally, there's the least played (in my experience) 5 Stormbolters. Now here's where I could see this AoF getting used more often than the other scenarios.

To sum up for those that are fans of TL;DR: 4 Meltaguns without TL are usually enough to slag a vehicle, 4 Flamers without TL are usually enough to deal with most units. and outside of assuredly wanting to make sure that something is dead with the greatest chance of success, I don't see this AoF being all that great for Dominions. Now, 4 Rending/AP1 Flamers on the other hand...

There are two rules that are confusing me.

Do Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave gain any benefit at all from Acts of Faith seen as they don't have the special rule Acts of Faith.
I'm assuming not as the Ecclesiarchy Priest has the rule but has no act of faith of his own suggesting that he benefits from being in sister squads that have Acts of Faith but cannot attempt an Act himself.

Also, and this maybe answered by the second half of the dex, but the rule Seraphim Pistols says that they cannot fire any other weapons that turn if they fire with both pistols. What other weapons? I'm assuming in the second half they will replace thier two pistols for hand flamers ect and so won't have any "other weapons".

Nuclear_Bomb wrote:I just picked up the WD yesterday, and I was impressed with the rules.

Your avatar says it all....

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Ok, I have to ask this. Why are people so pleased with the Dominions' AoF making their weapons Twin-Linked? To exemplify why I don't see it as that useful, I'll compare to two units that can already pretty much do what Dominions are used for already.

First is the 4 (5 w/ a Combi) Meltaguns in an Immolator. With that many shots, you are already likely to hit with 3-4 of them most of the time. Is burning an AoF to get that extra 1 or 2 to hit going to be worth it most of the time? I don't think so. A unit that already does this are an IG Vet Squad in a Chimera. BS4 with only 3 Meltaguns is usually reliable enough to get 1-2 hits and some desirable result with being Melta and all. And that's generally without their order to re-roll misses as they are usually either in a Chimera and can't receive orders and/or out of range of an officer to give said order anyways.

If you're using target priority for the unit in question properly then it is important to make it twin linked. Twin linking the 5 meltas in your first example means you go from average 3.333 melta hits to 4.444. If getting one more melta HIT on average on a dread, leman russ, or nob squad that is about to focus on you isn't important, I don't know what is. There's even an entire tourney SM army build premised on doing exactly what you mentioned (twin linking meltas and flamers in addition to THs) via a special character. I've been in 10x more situations where I wished I had one more melta hit rather than one less. If you're an SOB player and you're shooting at a 2 man squad of death company, don't waste the faith point; if they're instead 5-10 men, you'll be glad you have the OPTION.

Also Dominions are very impressive for SoB because they can now Scout! Getting those 4 or 5 TL Meltas on top of those tanks first turn, is huge. And Being TL means that the chances of stopping the Tank, Dread of what have you, From attacking you back is that much Greater. So I would rather have that extra hit to better the chances of surviving the next round.

Kreedos wrote:3x Dominions are almost needed for your 3 FA slots unless running 2 squads of 10 seraphim, then I'd still run a unit of dominions. Scout with 5 twin linked melta (1 combi) or 5 twin linked flamers (1 combi), and including the transport, an Immolator with Multimelta or Heavy flamer.

So you could run 3 Dominion squads with 5 melta and a 50/50 shot at Twin Linked faith, then Followed by a Twin Linked Multi Melta from an Immolator.

Vice Versa can be done with Flamers, 5x flamer with Immolator and heavy flamer for anti troop.

Sounds like Celestians in a command squad will get FNP, and probably the ability to take 1 or 2x Multi Meltas or Maybe heavy bolters, their act of faith gives relentless so it would lead one to believe so.

With 2 acts of faith and a cannoness attached with celestains one can get 1+ int, rereoll to hit, 1 str and fearless giving a 4/4/4/3/1/4/2/9 stat line for a celestian, and for cannoness with blessed weapon 5/5/6/3/3/5/3/10
in close combat.

Seraphim now are an amazing shooting unit with reroll to wound and 2 hand flamers, with the ability to shoot squads, weaken them, take a charge, and then hit and run out, shooting the squad, or another target, rinse and repeat. A rereoll 6+ invul gives survibility, and we don't even know what upgrades they can take yet, Krak make them able to take out vehicles.

Also, looks like Retributors can take heavy flamers now.

Think 4x heavy flamers with rending in a transport.
I'm thinking maybe, it's not going to be auto exorcist for heavy support?

Looks like a great change so far, I'm thinking 8-10 pts a model per sister.

You are both assuming that the Seraphim will pass their H&R at I3 and not be broken on the charge, and that the Rets will have new options (HFs). Command Squads rarely get heavy weapons in any codex. And notice that none of those units are TROOPS. That in itself is a nerf. Armies that spam troops units to do the killing are always better than those that don't.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Ok, I have to ask this. Why are people so pleased with the Dominions' AoF making their weapons Twin-Linked? To exemplify why I don't see it as that useful, I'll compare to two units that can already pretty much do what Dominions are used for already.

First is the 4 (5 w/ a Combi) Meltaguns in an Immolator. With that many shots, you are already likely to hit with 3-4 of them most of the time. Is burning an AoF to get that extra 1 or 2 to hit going to be worth it most of the time? I don't think so. A unit that already does this are an IG Vet Squad in a Chimera. BS4 with only 3 Meltaguns is usually reliable enough to get 1-2 hits and some desirable result with being Melta and all. And that's generally without their order to re-roll misses as they are usually either in a Chimera and can't receive orders and/or out of range of an officer to give said order anyways.

Second is the 4 (5) Flamers in an Immolator. With good template coverage, most units are already going to be taking enough wounds to either die outright or be rendered combat ineffective short of either large high T, multiple wound units, or those with FNP, or possibly Paladins. This is where Twin-Linking to re-roll failed to wounds would actually get some use IMO, but there is already a unit that does this just as well with very good results. The humble IG PCS with 4 Flamers in a Chimera. Again without orders, or AoF in the SoB case, 4 overlapping Flamer templates are usually sufficient.

Finally, there's the least played (in my experience) 5 Stormbolters. Now here's where I could see this AoF getting used more often than the other scenarios.

To sum up for those that are fans of TL;DR: 4 Meltaguns without TL are usually enough to slag a vehicle, 4 Flamers without TL are usually enough to deal with most units. and outside of assuredly wanting to make sure that something is dead with the greatest chance of success, I don't see this AoF being all that great for Dominions. Now, 4 Rending/AP1 Flamers on the other hand...

Because none of the other Acts are worth using? 4 flamers will kill 3 marines if you hit 5 models per template. That's NOT enough to not die to the subsequent charge + melee combat. Rending is AP 2, btw, and anybody who takes Storm Bolters deserves to get laughed at unless they come free. It was a dumb idea when they introduced it, and it's a dumb idea now. More bolter shots is not what Sisters need.

The rending means for every 6 models you cover, you get 1 free kill ... and 3 wounds on most targets. Not bad, but better than Dominons or Serahpim acts? I think not. Rets, 4 HF, Act firing on MEQ. 5 models per template generates roughly 3 rends and 11 wounds for 7 casualties. Skipping the act costs you 2 casualties. Doms, 4 F, Act firing on MEQ generates 15 wounds and 5 casualties. Skipping the act costs you 5 wounds, or a little less than 2 casualties. Plus twin linking is always good, rending is not always good if you punch the armor save anyway.

Marthike wrote:
However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

SO if the sisters can recruit from the space marine planets which I doubt then they only have the elite and no gene seed which is super elite.

No, its just they're elite in different ways. The big thing for the SoB is their strength of faith, that is the quality they'd be recruited on primarily. Space Marines are recruited primarily on physical prowess. They are both elite, just elite in different ways. SoB are more elite by virtue of being drawn from a larger body more selectively.

Marthike wrote:
thats why they are a horde army because they can recruit from the universe and there are alot of people in the universe of their numbers should be in the hundred of million if you consider one planet to have 100 billion and the whole universe will have 100 billion billon billon people.

The religion of the Imperium is more widespread than the space marines.

Nuclear_Bomb wrote:I just picked up the WD yesterday, and I was impressed with the rules.

The systems of faith points looks strange to me.
If you roll bad at the start of a turn, you gonna end up with no faith acts.

wuestenfux wrote:

Nuclear_Bomb wrote:I just picked up the WD yesterday, and I was impressed with the rules.

The systems of faith points looks strange to me.
If you roll bad at the start of a turn, you gonna end up with no faith acts.

Which makes Jacobus almost mandatory if your army relies on faith.

warboss wrote:If you're using target priority for the unit in question properly then it is important to make it twin linked. Twin linking the 5 meltas in your first example means you go from average 3.333 melta hits to 4.444. If getting one more melta HIT on average on a dread, leman russ, or nob squad that is about to focus on you isn't important, I don't know what is. There's even an entire tourney SM army build premised on doing exactly what you mentioned (twin linking meltas and flamers in addition to THs) via a special character. I've been in 10x more situations where I wished I had one more melta hit rather than one less. If you're an SOB player and you're shooting at a 2 man squad of death company, don't waste the faith point; if they're instead 5-10 men, you'll be glad you have the OPTION.

Yes, having the option is nice, but at the loss of the other AoF? And I did point out that for a target that simply must get dead then and there that using the TL AoF would be pertinent. And yes SM get TL everything SoB love without needing or using an AoF but via special rules that are always on via Vulkan. While very useful and nice to have for the Salamanders, I don't see it being worth an AoF on only one unit type for SoB barring exceptions otherwise noted. I wouldn't mind paying Vulkan's points for a similar character for SoB that TL Flamers, H. Flamers, and Meltas were always 'on' without having to use an AoF.

Da Piper wrote:Also Dominions are very impressive for SoB because they can now Scout! Getting those 4 or 5 TL Meltas on top of those tanks first turn, is huge. And Being TL means that the chances of stopping the Tank, Dread of what have you, From attacking you back is that much Greater. So I would rather have that extra hit to better the chances of surviving the next round.

Agreed that for something that absolutely must get dead where you do want those hits for more damage opportunity the AoF is nice to have, but outside of those situations the Dominions are fine on their own without it.

The Grog wrote:Because none of the other Acts are worth using?

And because outside of attaching an IC, they don't have access to other AoF at the moment.

The Grog wrote:4 flamers will kill 3 marines if you hit 5 models per template. That's NOT enough to not die to the subsequent charge + melee combat.

Agreed, but enough to force a Morale check.

The Grog wrote:Rending is AP 2, btw,

I was referring both to the previous AoF Divine Guidance with made them AP 1 and Dominions had access to along with the "new and improved" AoF Divine Guidance that only Retributors have access to.

The Grog wrote: and anybody who takes Storm Bolters deserves to get laughed at unless they come free. It was a dumb idea when they introduced it, and it's a dumb idea now. More bolter shots is not what Sisters need.

Mostly agree although I have seen at least one list use them for some effect. Anecdotal at best I realize, but make of it what you will.

The Grog wrote:The rending means for every 6 models you cover, you get 1 free kill ... and 3 wounds on most targets. Not bad, but better than Dominons or Serahpim acts? I think not. Rets, 4 HF, Act firing on MEQ. 5 models per template generates roughly 3 rends and 11 wounds for 7 casualties. Skipping the act costs you 2 casualties. Doms, 4 F, Act firing on MEQ generates 15 wounds and 5 casualties. Skipping the act costs you 5 wounds, or a little less than 2 casualties. Plus twin linking is always good, rending is not always good if you punch the armor save anyway.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think your math has shown that Rending/AP1 is strictly better for causing wounds than TL. I agree that the Dominions' TL AoF does have some use some of the time, but I believe it has yet to be shown that it is or will be worth the loss of the other AoF they had. Seeing that again short of attaching an IC to them, they currently only have access to that one AoF, and they might as well use it if you have the Faith to spare that turn, but I'm still not seeing the praises for it, especially in replacing the other AoF they did have, namely SotM and Divine Retribution Guidance.

Edit: This is why posting and drinking don't mix.

What is really upsetting, past the other things people have identified is the destinct lack of certain things.

No assassins, no inquisitors, I was expecting these as maybe hang overs from the old codex.

Certainly the lack of assassins is a real body blow unless it is going to be referenced in the next part, see codex grey knights but that is just cheep as.

Edit

Was also hoping for valkarie transports but that was a bit of a long shot anyway.

ceorron wrote:What is really upsetting, past the other things people have identified is the destinct lack of certain things.

No assassins, no inquisitors, I was expecting these as maybe hang overs from the old codex.

Certainly the lack of assassins is a real body blow unless it is going to be referenced in the next part, see codex grey knights but that is just cheap as.

There's a reason for no assassins and Inquisitors. They're moving Sisters of Battle away from the Inquisition and reflecting the way that they've been for a long time in the fluff. They work alongside the Ordo Hereticus, but they're not subservient to it.

Lots of folks seem to be assuming we'll get to keep our specials to models ratios. I suspect Ward will have nerfed those so Dominions in Immolators will only get two Meltaguns, with ten-Dominions squads needed for four specials - same with Retributors. I'd be really, pleasantly surprised if this wasn't the case, though :-)

I don't know. Devastators get 4 heavy weapons regardless of squad size in all marine codexi, don't they?

Doms are probably screwed though.