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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s really not.

no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.

 warboss wrote:
Looks like CBS All Access is free for the next month (April 24th) if you use the coupon code "GIFT". In case anyone thinks I'm joking...

https://www.ign.com/articles/star-trek-picard-discovery-free-cbs-all-access-patrick-stewart

Looks like I'll be catching up on all this and seeing if it really is the dumpster fire that it sounds like from reviews. Just remember to cancel before April 24th to avoid a charge for a month that isn't free.

Its quite entertaining and has some good elements...see what you think.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s really not.

no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.

That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s really not.

no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.

That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?

No I mean I don't get going into watch something, and LOOKING for things to hate about it. plenty of people do it and I don't get it

Some people are just relentlessly negative. I don't get it, either. I vastly prefer doing things I enjoy and thinking about things I like rather than the opposite.
Funnily enough, I still haven't gotten around to seeing last week's episode.

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s really not.

no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.

That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?

No I mean I don't get going into watch something, and LOOKING for things to hate about it. plenty of people do it and I don't get it

Those are people who tend to have a lot of time on their hands.

I'm serious. I can almost guarantee you that it tracks.

It's sad (and very predictable) that nowadays people who see criticism of a show they like reflexively criticize the person posting the dissenting opinion. I'm a big fan of the first AVP movie but I don't feel the need to psychoanalyze or insult people who don't. It's ok to like something that others don't and vice versa. Criticism of a tv show isn't automatically criticism of the fanbase. You'll be ok.

Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though. They are EAGER to scream 'That's not Star Trek!' every opportunity they get, and come up with a list of 39 things they hated about the latest episode of whatever Trek, so they have clickbait content for their YouTube channel.

That said, for someone who grew up with TNG (I was in high school a good part of the run), I am mostly left with a feeling of 'meh' about Picard. I'll watch, but I could have gone on just fine without it. If others like it, good for them...

 totalfailure wrote:
Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though.

As does Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, Star Wars, most sport teams etc...

It's human nature. When we become invested into something at a high level we enjoy sharing that with other people. However at the same time we establish a series of understandings of the thing we are interested in. These understandings are often most heavily shaped by our early interactions. Change that comes after those early interactions can be both good and bad, however our reception to those changes can vary a lot. Sometimes a thing can change significantly from the original, but does so in small stages and steps. So any who keep up don't even really notice the changes.

Those who step back and walk away for a period of time can more readily see the changes because they are no longer involved in the gradual evolution. This can make them less accepting. In addition sometimes changes happen suddenly - like the shift from Old World to Age of Sigmar; or the release of the Prequel Star Wars films.



In the end its just fans arguing about stuff - just like some Nightwish fans will argue about their favourite lead singer or others will argue about their favourite football players in their favourite team.

 totalfailure wrote:
Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though. They are EAGER to scream 'That's not Star Trek!' every opportunity they get, and come up with a list of 39 things they hated about the latest episode of whatever Trek, so they have clickbait content for their YouTube channel.

That said, for someone who grew up with TNG (I was in high school a good part of the run), I am mostly left with a feeling of 'meh' about Picard. I'll watch, but I could have gone on just fine without it. If others like it, good for them...

I find the term "gatekeeper" to be highly inaccurate figuratively and literally as it innately implies that they're trying to prevent access to the show to you and others. That's not even close to what they're attempting to do let alone succeeding. A highly negative review is no more gatekeeping than a glowingly positive one; both are simply opinions meant to inform or at worst persuade. I watch lots of supposedly toxic fan reviews and it certainly didn't prevent me from signing up on day 1 once they started the free grace period. You have a solid case for calling it clickbait though.

Do I agree with those reviews calling it a dumpster fire as I previously mention? No, not really as I'm actually (so far with episode 1-3) more in agreement with you. I've had an occasional tinge of nostalgia but overall it's thoroughly mediocre IMO. The parts that were described as horrible were mainly cringeworthy or out of character at worst (like the vulgar and overly emotional dressing down by his fellow admiral at HQ or the GOT incestous tone of the Romulan Zjad Vash (sp?) siblings). Maybe my feelings will change as I progress through the season but so far it's better than Season 1 of Disco but still IMO not good or even trekky feeling. We'll see if that last part changes as they literally just went to warp when I stopped watching for the night... though the torture scene is IIRC next for me. That did sound like one of the worst.

The season does mature as it goes along, and is solid at answering the earlier questions, without snuffing out the plot, whilst also introducing new plot elements and twists without it being too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s really not.

no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.

That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?

No I mean I don't get going into watch something, and LOOKING for things to hate about it. plenty of people do it and I don't get it

Those are people who tend to have a lot of time on their hands.

I'm serious. I can almost guarantee you that it tracks.

I’d agree. Anyone willing to make a ‘criticism’ video as long or longer than the episode or films they’re claiming to critique should probably be ignored - whether they enjoyed it or not.

 totalfailure wrote:
Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though. They are EAGER to scream 'That's not Star Trek!' every opportunity they get, and come up with a list of 39 things they hated about the latest episode of whatever Trek, so they have clickbait content for their YouTube channel.

That said, for someone who grew up with TNG (I was in high school a good part of the run), I am mostly left with a feeling of 'meh' about Picard. I'll watch, but I could have gone on just fine without it. If others like it, good for them...

As noted, nope - not just ST fans. Star Wars fandom is also known for it, and just about every other fandom out there (it's just ST and SW are the two biggest and more successful v/movie ones).

Nerd tribalist bullgak at its worst. Every tribe suffers from it, nerd and otherwise.

Mmmmmmmmm... I think that was a fairly weak finale overall. Lots of nits to pick.

 AduroT wrote:
Mmmmmmmmm... I think that was a fairly weak finale overall. Lots of nits to pick.

I don't think it was weak, just anti-climatic -



I'm going to binge-watch the series again in a few days.

beast_gts wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Mmmmmmmmm... I think that was a fairly weak finale overall. Lots of nits to pick.

I don't think it was weak, just anti-climatic -

Spoiler:

The space battle wasn't great, I was disappointed that all the Starfleet ships were the same class and Narissa's death was a bit cliched (if she is dead).

I'm going to binge-watch the series again in a few days.

the starfleet ships being of the same class is dissappointing but easy to explain, back in the old days of trek it was almost easier to kitbash a ton of differant ships out of spare model kits you had laying around etc (the wolf 359 graveyard being the most obvious example here) but now with CGI a ton of things the same is the easier options. that said, they give a "srot of" explination on screen when they note that "this is the fastest best armed ship in the fleet" my guess is they simple had a class of ship, presumably a new class, that was simply fast eneugh to make it. a fleet after all has the travel at the speed of it's slowest component member

Not having seen the episode yet, it's also with pointing out that the Utopia Planitia Shipyards at Mars were destroyed, along with a lot of ships in the fleet. They may very well have consolidated down to only a few designs easily built elsewhere to restock the fleet.

Just watched the Sister Boy side quest and Freecloud episodes... and wow... that was the least trekish Star Trek I've seen since the premiere of DISCO. I think I'll have to reconcile it by simply saying that the change in Picard from a deep, insightful, diplomatic, and charismatic captain to an impetuous, naive, and boorish old man is because of the Irumotic (sp?) Syndrome.

More worrying than the so called toxicity of negative reviewers is the tendency to discredit their opinions a priori. "They probably have too much time on their hands" is particularly rich coming from users with thousands of post in a miniature wargaming forum.

Media can and should be criticised and it's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to engage with said criticism and figure out if it has any merit.

The whole attitude of "it's just entertainmant, dude" must be the most frustrating notion in relation to contemporary media, as it directly contributes to the decline in quality and consistency we are witnessing.

Just watched the finale. Have some thoughts.



For the "dumpster fire" thoughts, here's my take. I'm normally pretty bitter and cynical about these things, and am pretty quick to hop on such bandwagons where I think it's warranted (and I've voiced a few above). Ultimately, however, "Picard" is pretty standard...Star Trek. They've darkened it up, added new special effects, changed some format stuff, and serialized it, but it's still written by the seat of its pants with gigantic plot holes, narrative inconsistencies with previous content, contrived *everything*, some camp, a wide array of acting quality, goofy props, technobabble, some spaceships doing stuff at absurdly short visual distances, extreme (likely criminal or severely traumatic) acts often are overlooked and immediately forgotten, and all the aliens and robots manage to look like spray paint or pointy eared homo sapiens.

It was...basically Star Trek. In this, I can forgive it, that's part of what Star Trek has always been. I get the frustrations some people have with that, in some ways we kinda expect more these day (and that's a good thing), but this is inherently a nostalgia bomb show basically promising a refresh of something comfortable. From that perspective, it did fine. Honestly, I have way fewer issues with Picard than I do with Discovery (mainly in that Picard is at least coherent enough that I can recall the plot )

BrianDavion wrote:
the starfleet ships being of the same class is dissappointing but easy to explain, back in the old days of trek it was almost easier to kitbash a ton of differant ships out of spare model kits you had laying around etc (the wolf 359 graveyard being the most obvious example here) but now with CGI a ton of things the same is the easier options. that said, they give a "srot of" explination on screen when they note that "this is the fastest best armed ship in the fleet" my guess is they simple had a class of ship, presumably a new class, that was simply fast eneugh to make it. a fleet after all has the travel at the speed of it's slowest component member

Yes - and the USS Constellation in TOS was NCC-1017 so they could re-use the transfers from the Enterprise model kit I think I'm just use to seeing different classes in Trek fleet shots.


Three further questions -

Really enjoyed the finale.

As Vaktathi said, it was a very Star Trek ending, and a TNG one at that.

Looking forward to the next season already. Will Picard resume his Admiralcy? Will he remain in retirement etc? What role will Guinean play? Might we see Q?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BertBert wrote:
More worrying than the so called toxicity of negative reviewers is the tendency to discredit their opinions a priori. "They probably have too much time on their hands" is particularly rich coming from users with thousands of post in a miniature wargaming forum.

Media can and should be criticised and it's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to engage with said criticism and figure out if it has any merit.

The whole attitude of "it's just entertainmant, dude" must be the most frustrating notion in relation to contemporary media, as it directly contributes to the decline in quality and consistency we are witnessing.

There’s a difference spending hours of my life on a forum about my Hobby, a Hobby I’ve been into for a little over 30 years, and having out a Youtube video lasting longer than the thing you’re critiquing, no?

Yes. All things are open to criticism. Criticism is not a purely negative thing. One can provide a positive critique. But when a critique is longer than the subject, I’ll ignore it, as I suspect there’ll be nothing constructive about it.

beast_gts wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the starfleet ships being of the same class is dissappointing but easy to explain, back in the old days of trek it was almost easier to kitbash a ton of differant ships out of spare model kits you had laying around etc (the wolf 359 graveyard being the most obvious example here) but now with CGI a ton of things the same is the easier options. that said, they give a "srot of" explination on screen when they note that "this is the fastest best armed ship in the fleet" my guess is they simple had a class of ship, presumably a new class, that was simply fast eneugh to make it. a fleet after all has the travel at the speed of it's slowest component member

Yes - and the USS Constellation in TOS was NCC-1017 so they could re-use the transfers from the Enterprise model kit I think I'm just use to seeing different classes in Trek fleet shots.


Three further questions -

Spoiler:

Did we ever see Beautiful Flower's twin? Or find out who/what Soji's mother was? And without Data's neuron, can they create more synthetics?

people have noted BTW that it was actually several distinct classes that simply looked very similer. and I did see some possiable distinctions yeah.

one thing intreasting is the new feddy ships looks a LOT like the Avenger class battlecruiser from STO.

I'd not be too displeased if they cribbed a few other designs from STO

Mildly disappointed we didn’t get a scrap between the two fleets.

Interesting to note that the Starfleet Fleet appears to be closer to a unified warfleet than we've ever seen them use before. Prior to this their fleets have always been a bit of a motley of different classes of ships built at different times to different specifications with most of them being exploratory in nature at their core.

I suspect this is some fallout of the Dominion War and an expansion of the Defiant Program to produce a more unified fleet capable of military style response. The Nemesis film events might also have prompted Starfleet to realise that other races might well stop holding back and make far more capable warships as well.

Basically an escalation of arms. That would lore wise explain why the fleet has a very unified appearance; they were built at the same time to the same rough specifications and purpose. As opposed to being built more ad-hock.


The more surprising thing is that Will managed to take command of the fleet; which suggests that he's likely risen as high as Picard managed too in his day.



The lack of a scrap was a "shame" but at the same time the fight with the flowers was darn beautiful and pretty.




There's also the machine's on the edge to contend with. They were called and they are advanced. It might not nessessarily be the end of this story.






Overall I'm very pleased with the series. It spent a lot of time looking into the past, but then again I think with this first season (which is still very short by ST seasons) they've done a lot of ground work building and setting in place blocks to use for the future. They've used it to clear up 15-20 odd years of story that we missed out on and from that we've got characters with a past to them. We've got a lot of parts setup and in motion now.

Also I said earlier I didn't want to see Picard in the Golem even though it was all setup for it and honestly the way they handled it was fantastic - very very Star Trek.


I think the only thing in the ending that is a little confusing is why Seven is on the ship and not back with the Borg. Then again we can make the assumption that Dr Soone and the other Synthetics will likely be looking after those who survived and that Seven was never fully part of their world.

BrianDavion wrote:
people have noted BTW that it was actually several distinct classes that simply looked very similer. and I did see some possiable distinctions yeah.

Will definitely be re-watching it ASAP then!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
I think the only thing in the ending that is a little confusing is why Seven is on the ship and not back with the Borg. Then again we can make the assumption that Dr Soone and the other Synthetics will likely be looking after those who survived and that Seven was never fully part of their world.

The comment about the synth ban being lifted makes me think that a lot of time has passed between the battle, and them leaving at the end of the episode. It might get back-filled in later.

Agreed, plus we don't know how long Picard was in stasis. Clearly time has passed. Enough to repair the ship and suchlike. Also it seems like Seven and Raffi have a bit of a thing going on too


That said I hope that season 2 might be able to use the foundation that season 1 has built up in order to allow for more time going forward and slightly less going back. Though I'm sure we will see some going back.

Those ships look like a JJ-verse version of the Sovereign to me. I don’t hate them, but I was hoping for more.

I appreciated their design more than the Romulan ones.

I mean, the Romulan ships looked pretty ace, but were a pretty big departure from their TNG look (far, far sleeker. And chrome!).

But the Federation ships looked the part. Nascelles, main hull, saucer section. Luvverly.

The Romulan ships looked like a transporter accident involving a Cylon fighter and an F-22.

I was sad to not see any of the classic Romulan Warbirds which, to my eye, are far more suited to looking menacing and impressive. Especially if they actually decked out the huge open wing area into a massive hanging facility.