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Jidmah wrote:
A rock is also better for cracking tanks than a banana. They still aren't good. Multi-assaults are terrible for all kinds boyz, if your only argument is them being better in multi-assaults, then that's absolutely not worth it.

These are my arguments as to why slugga boyz are superior for units charging from vehicles. I have never stipulated that slugga boyz are better on foot. Shoota boyz are definitely more flexible tactically, and if that's how you use your boyz then I agree that shootas are best. But the boyz I put on battlewagons are there to tie up the enemy and hack them to bits.

1) With random charge range you run a serious risk of failing a charge if you kill too many of the target models. Everyone here assumes that you will be able to get all those shots off and kill those 4 space marines before you assault, but I've found many circumstances where doing so would dramatically increase the risk of failing an assault and is inadvisable.

2) With fearless wounds gone the chances of having a combat last more than one turn increases. The longer a combat lasts the greater the advantage slugga boyz have over shoota boyz.

3) Multi-charge isn't universally terrible, and if you ignore it you're ignoring a large variety of options. If I multi-charge and kill three instead of six marines, or 13 instead of 23 guardsman, that means I have a better chance of staying in assault during my opponent's turn. And with orks the greatest place to be during my opponent's turn is in assault, because that means I'm not being shot. This argument is more valid against lighter opponents (guardsmen, orks, those upcoming cultists, etc) than it is against your generic space marine. Multi-charge is also very helpful against vehicle targets that are close to an infantry unit. I declare the vehicle to be my primary target, hit it with my PK nob, and then direct the rest of the boyz against the infantry target.

0) That's why I assumed 20. Shoota boyz can disembark, shoot and then charge the enemy, so the numbers are spot-on. I have shown that they are not superior, but equal, in the vacuum of a battlewagon popping out of the warp, orks disembarking and charging. If your battlewagon gets assaulted, or you shoot anything drive-by stile, shootas are superior.

1) You are disembarking from a battlewagon. If you are in danger of failing your assault if one or two models die (about 2"), then why did you disembark? Why not sit inside the comfy BW for another turn, shoot the enemy anyways and disembark later? Of course, this is not an option for slugga boyz most of the time, but this goes right back to the point above. If your game really hinges on making or not making that one charge, simply don't shoot them. Even then, you might roll snake-eyes anyways. You should ask yourself why your game came down to making a single charge though.

2) The longer combat lasts, the more boyz you lose. You want to finish combat quickly, and you should be able to break most units within two rounds of combat. Between random charge ranges (even if you make the charge, not all boyz will be able to fight), challenges (nob smashing Sgt. Nobody instead of 3 marine), and multiple USRs helping with combat results (ATSKNF, Stuborn, Fearless), you are pretty likely to stay for at least one turn.

3) Really, do the math. If you multi-charge two units of anything, you take more casualties from the additional overwatch and close combat attacks than you would if you run down one unit and get shot and charged by the other. Losing +1S and +1A is that bad. The "chance" of staying in combat comes at a high price - as my math has shown, you are pretty likely to get taken below 10 orks within that second turn and then get run down due to losing combat. All because you chose to not kill 3 marines/10 guardsmen who are all alive and killing a couple of additional boyz every round of combat, while taking on twice as many enemies.

Multi-charge is universally terrible. If you want to sacrifice your boyz to prevent shooting, that's an option. Just like charging a soulgrinder with boyz is an option. But in that case, you don't need the extra attacks to kill minimal amounts of additional models (1 MEQ/4 GEQ/3 Orks, during each ongoing turn, assuming no casualties at all). But then again, if you had shoota boyz instead, they could have caused just as many casualties by driving past any unit at full speed and snap-firing at them.
Another option would be mopping up two wounded units at once. In that case, you wouldn't be staying in combat long enough to profit from your additional attacks. The last option would be charging your nob into a vehicle while your boyz fight someone else. This probably the most useful application, but not all vehicles are worth the huge amount of extra casualties you take from that stunt.

Unless, of course, you are charging units with absolutely no combat ability at all, like my aforementioned gretchin or ratlings. And don't blame it on the marines. A blob of guardsmen or a mob of orks kill way more boyz than those tactical marines. Awesome stats combined with one attack is still just one attack. Be afraid of space wolves and chaos marines though. And if either units is actually good at close combat, they will tear you to shreds anyways.

All assuming that your opponent allows you to multi-assault in the first place. Placing two units 6" appart makes it all but impossible to actually pull a multi-assault off as, under the new rules, multi-assault are only possible if
a) The multi-assaulting model can not reach base-to-base with the primary target
b) It is in coherency with a model that already made a charge move.
The second one really breaks your neck here, as you usually need at least four boyz to bridge a 6" gap.

Ascalam wrote:Gitz aren't that shabby in CC either.

It's not really where you want them to be, but they have Nob statlines

It's shocked some folk who've assaulted them to stop them from firing, only to have the assaulting unit pummeled to a man by snazzgun butts, and then for the Gitz to start up shooting again..

That's why I'd like to test them in 6th. Though, are Flashigitz able to LoS each other like a regular nob squad?

Nope, they aren't characters. Their painboy is though

Yup, because that helps so much


Is the painboy even worth it now? 30pts ontop of a stock Git doesnt sound worth it for a now 5+FNP.

I'd be tempted to take them with just the Assault 2 upgrade and a few ammo runts.

Jidmah wrote:0) That's why I assumed 20. Shoota boyz can disembark, shoot and then charge the enemy, so the numbers are spot-on. I have shown that they are not superior, but equal, in the vacuum of a battlewagon popping out of the warp, orks disembarking and charging. If your battlewagon gets assaulted, or you shoot anything drive-by stile, shootas are superior.

1) You are disembarking from a battlewagon. If you are in danger of failing your assault if one or two models die (about 2"), then why did you disembark? Why not sit inside the comfy BW for another turn, shoot the enemy anyways and disembark later? Of course, this is not an option for slugga boyz most of the time, but this goes right back to the point above. If your game really hinges on making or not making that one charge, simply don't shoot them. Even then, you might roll snake-eyes anyways. You should ask yourself why your game came down to making a single charge though.

With random charge range you are always in danger of a charge failing. Ignoring fleet the chances of reaching a given distance are well established. Your equivalency requires that the shoota boys get their shots off before they charge. Depending on the charge distance those 2" could be crucial. Going from 6" to 8" reduces your chances of making the charge by 30%, and potentially even more if you lose enough boyz to overwatch.

And given how easy it is to destroy battlewagons, especially battlewagons that are close to the enemy and therefore susceptible to assault or side shots, it's suicide to stay inside the vehicle. Yes, 20 shoota boyz can get off their snap shots while the battlewagon is careening forward. On average 6.67 will hit, leading to one dead marine.

2) The longer combat lasts, the more boyz you lose. You want to finish combat quickly, and you should be able to break most units within two rounds of combat. Between random charge ranges (even if you make the charge, not all boyz will be able to fight), challenges (nob smashing Sgt. Nobody instead of 3 marine), and multiple USRs helping with combat results (ATSKNF, Stuborn, Fearless), you are pretty likely to stay for at least one turn.

You're right, chances are good you'll be able to break a something liek a space marine unit in two player turns. But what if the enemy charges your mob with additional troops? With a battlewagon list you're generally right in the enemy line when you fight, and your opponent isn't going to sit around and wait patiently for you to charge someone else. I also agree that you want to break the enemy in the second turn, and this is an area where slugga boyz are superior to shoota boyz since they get that extra attack. You will need 3 shoota boyz to do the equivalent number of wounds as 2 slugga boyz in that second turn.

3) Really, do the math. If you multi-charge two units of anything, you take more casualties from the additional overwatch and close combat attacks than you would if you run down one unit and get shot and charged by the other. Losing +1S and +1A is that bad. The "chance" of staying in combat comes at a high price - as my math has shown, you are pretty likely to get taken below 10 orks within that second turn and then get run down due to losing combat. All because you chose to not kill 3 marines/10 guardsmen who are all alive and killing a couple of additional boyz every round of combat, while taking on twice as many enemies.

Okay, let's do the math. I agree with you that multi-charging marines is a bad idea. You are already reasonably assured that you will survive into the opponent's turn of combat by charging a single unit. So let's focus on something lighter; guardsmen. We'll assume 20 slugga boyz are charging a unit of ten guardsmen, and have the opportunity to multi-charge a second unit should they so choose. Since I want to reach assault I will not shoot before I charge.

Guardsman get 20 snap shots, which translates to 1.11 dead orks. They then get their 10 attacks, which translates to 1.38 more dead orks. So we'll assume 3 dead orks. The remaining 17 orks get 68 attacks, which translates to 20.2 failed saves on average. So that's a dead squad, and my orks are now out in the open and within rapid fire range. The second squad rapid fires and scores 3.33 dead orks. Or 5 dead orks if they use the First Rank Fire! order. Total orks killed: 6-8.

Now let's charge that second squad. Guardsman get 40 snap shots which translates to 2.22 dead orks. Then they get their 20 attacks, which translates to 2.76 dead orks. 5 dead orks. I then get my 45 attacks which translates to 10 failed saves on average. That's still enough to force both to do a leadership check. Let's assume that they pass. Round 2 they get their 10 attacks which translates to 1.38 dead orks. I then get my 13 boyz to do 39 attacks which translates to 8.66 dead guardsmen. Total orks killed: 6-7

Your argument is that, by the math, multi-charging would lead to more casualties than charging one and getting shot at by the other. I provided a reasonable scenario in which multi-charging is better. My point stands that multi-charging has its place. It's a tactic, like everything else in the game, and it has its place.

All assuming that your opponent allows you to multi-assault in the first place. Placing two units 6" appart makes it all but impossible to actually pull a multi-assault off as, under the new rules, multi-assault are only possible if
a) The multi-assaulting model can not reach base-to-base with the primary target
b) It is in coherency with a model that already made a charge move.
The second one really breaks your neck here, as you usually need at least four boyz to bridge a 6" gap.

I agree that it's not trivial and require careful placement and proper attention to detail. There are ways to force your enemy to bunch up, such as with tank shocking.

So let's review my points.

1) In the situation of orks coming from vehicles slugga boyz are superior to shoota boyz because:
1a) Shoota boyz require a round of shooting to be equivalent to slugga boyz on the charge, and you run the risk of losing your charge range if you do this.
1b) Combat typically lasts more than one round, and in later rounds sluggas are better due to their extra attack.

2) Multi-charge is a valid tactic in certain situations, and should not be universally dismissed.

Imho, i think Flash Gitz are to be used in very specific circumstances, or very friendly games, if you are expecting a challenging game that is near competitive, they dont make up their points, BS2 doesnt cut it for what they have

So, just off the top of my head, this is a very friendly list i plan on taking to play with the ladz.

2 SAG meks with ammpo runts

7 lootas
7 lootas

2X30 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
20 shoota boyz, 1 big shoota, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor

2X3 kannons, 6 additional grot crew
7 flashgitz with shootier & more dakka, with 3 ammo runts

Off the top of my head, that runs somewhere just a touch south of 1500 points.

loota boy wrote:So, just off the top of my head, this is a very friendly list i plan on taking to play with the ladz.

2 SAG meks with ammpo runts

7 lootas
7 lootas

2X30 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
20 shoota boyz, 1 big shoota, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor

2X3 kannons, 6 additional grot crew
7 flashgitz with shootier & more dakka, with 3 ammo runts

Off the top of my head, that runs somewhere just a touch south of 1500 points.

Looks like a lot of fun, and has a chance of doing some crazy things. Are you putting the Meks in with the kannons or the lootas?

I just can't see Flash Gitz being worth their points relative to another group of lootas. Maybe it's just been so long that I haven't given them a real look recently, but lootas are so damn good it seems a crime not to take another group.

Why not take another big shoota in the squads? You can take 3 in a 30 man and 2 in a 20 man.

Finally if you can find the points I would SERIOUSLY recommend looking into a Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Cannon. It'll offer a large amount of protection for all those lootas and artillery pieces.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:

loota boy wrote:So, just off the top of my head, this is a very friendly list i plan on taking to play with the ladz.

2 SAG meks with ammpo runts

7 lootas
7 lootas

2X30 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
20 shoota boyz, 1 big shoota, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor

2X3 kannons, 6 additional grot crew
7 flashgitz with shootier & more dakka, with 3 ammo runts

Off the top of my head, that runs somewhere just a touch south of 1500 points.

Looks like a lot of fun, and has a chance of doing some crazy things. Are you putting the Meks in with the kannons or the lootas?

I just can't see Flash Gitz being worth their points relative to another group of lootas. Maybe it's just been so long that I haven't given them a real look recently, but lootas are so damn good it seems a crime not to take another group.

Why not take another big shoota in the squads? You can take 3 in a 30 man and 2 in a 20 man.

Finally if you can find the points I would SERIOUSLY recommend looking into a Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Cannon. It'll offer a large amount of protection for all those lootas and artillery pieces.

The flash gitz are there mostly because I only have 15 lootas. And because I have some sweet conversion ideas for them. Meks will go with the kannons, but mayhaps i will trim some stuff for some grot units to put them into. How many points are the aegis defense line and quadcannon? And what are the stats on it? I don't own 6th rulebook yet.

On the other hand, the list feels lacking in anti-infantry. I was thinking of investing in a burna bomma or two. Thoughts? And if i do, should i take the burna missiles as well?

I've had Flash Gits do absolutely squat but blow themselves up in some games.

In others a single mob took out massive chunks of the enemy army.

Problem is (for the non-gamblers) you never can tell what they'll do, and mathhammer doesn't really cover them too well.

My favourite game recently was with two mobs of Flashgitz and Badrukk defending a Skyshield. Those boyz were cooking ! AP 1 and 2 shots everywhere, and better than average rolls, for once..

(then again, i have an unseemly need to run Flash Gitz, and always run them fully loaded It costs a ton of points. but there's nothing quite as satisfying as seeing a huge scary-looking 2+ armoured Deathstar being reduced to smoke )

loota boy wrote:
The flash gitz are there mostly because I only have 15 lootas. And because I have some sweet conversion ideas for them. Meks will go with the kannons, but mayhaps i will trim some stuff for some grot units to put them into. How many points are the aegis defense line and quadcannon? And what are the stats on it? I don't own 6th rulebook yet.

On the other hand, the list feels lacking in anti-infantry. I was thinking of investing in a burna bomma or two. Thoughts? And if i do, should i take the burna missiles as well?

If you have 15 lootas I would split it into 3 squads of 5. Increases your chances of getting an average roll, splits up what the enemy has to target, and with the new morale rules you can still regroup until there's only one dude left. Also there's nothing preventing you from converting flash gitz and mixing them up with your lootas. Orks are cunning like that.

ADL and QC is 100 points. The ADL consists of 4 5" sections and 4 2" sections about 1.5" tall that you can assemble into any configuration you want so long as two of the sections touch each other. It provides a 4+ cover save to anything behind it, and it's tall enough that it can provide a cover save to stuff like basilisks and manticores. Quad cannon is a 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 emplaced gun that has the twin-linked, skyfire, and interceptor qualities. Put a grot next to it and you've got a BS3 death cannon that can swat flyers out of the sky. Plus it works VERY well against infantry.

I'm not sold on burna bommers. Dakkajets seem to be universally loved, and I'm inclined to agree for the moment. This may change as more anti-air is added to the game (I shudder the think about what Eldar will be able to do to flyers once their codex is updated), but for now they're a solid option that can brutalize infantry. IMO you're looking pretty good against infantry. You've got all those kannons, lootas, SAGs, and shoota boyz.

Personally I would be more concerned with mobility than shooting infantry. You can only control three objectives since you only have three scoring units, and on foot you can be easily outmanuevered. Then again footslogging shootas are very strong and once you land on an objective it will be very hard to dislodge you from it. I think you should try it as footsloggers and see what happens.

A stupid but relevant question:

A unit of five koptas can regroup as long as MORE than one kopta is left alive?

/Calle

Jidmah wrote:Nope, they aren't characters. Their painboy is though

Well that's what I thought - thank you for the confirmation.
The painboy doesn't seem to be worth its points in a Flash Gitz mob. Too pricey.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:ADL and QC is 100 points. The ADL consists of 4 5" sections and 4 2" sections about 1.5" tall that you can assemble into any configuration you want so long as two of the sections touch each other. It provides a 4+ cover save to anything behind it, and it's tall enough that it can provide a cover save to stuff like basilisks and manticores. Quad cannon is a 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 emplaced gun that has the twin-linked, skyfire, and interceptor qualities. Put a grot next to it and you've got a BS3 death cannon that can swat flyers out of the sky. Plus it works VERY well against infantry.

Thanks for the dimensions of ADL, I don't want to spend money on the official stuff, I'm planning to do something more orky.
How about using Ork Barricades? Does anyone know if they have similar dimensions?

Jag_Calle wrote:A stupid but relevant question:

A unit of five koptas can regroup as long as MORE than one kopta is left alive?

/Calle

Yup, as that would top 25%

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:

loota boy wrote:
The flash gitz are there mostly because I only have 15 lootas. And because I have some sweet conversion ideas for them. Meks will go with the kannons, but mayhaps i will trim some stuff for some grot units to put them into. How many points are the aegis defense line and quadcannon? And what are the stats on it? I don't own 6th rulebook yet.

On the other hand, the list feels lacking in anti-infantry. I was thinking of investing in a burna bomma or two. Thoughts? And if i do, should i take the burna missiles as well?

If you have 15 lootas I would split it into 3 squads of 5. Increases your chances of getting an average roll, splits up what the enemy has to target, and with the new morale rules you can still regroup until there's only one dude left. Also there's nothing preventing you from converting flash gitz and mixing them up with your lootas. Orks are cunning like that.

I'll probably do 3 squads of 5, i just felt like i might be under for the one extra, so i put the other two into one squad. I do want to use the gitz though, just for gaks and giggles.

ADL and QC is 100 points. The ADL consists of 4 5" sections and 4 2" sections about 1.5" tall that you can assemble into any configuration you want so long as two of the sections touch each other. It provides a 4+ cover save to anything behind it, and it's tall enough that it can provide a cover save to stuff like basilisks and manticores. Quad cannon is a 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 emplaced gun that has the twin-linked, skyfire, and interceptor qualities. Put a grot next to it and you've got a BS3 death cannon that can swat flyers out of the sky. Plus it works VERY well against infantry.

Thanks. Sounds pretty cool. I'll probably find a grot squad to put on it for home objective holding. But if i stick a SAG mek in that grot squad, will i have to shoot the SAG at the things the Quad cannon is shooting at?

I'm not sold on burna bommers. Dakkajets seem to be universally loved, and I'm inclined to agree for the moment. This may change as more anti-air is added to the game (I shudder the think about what Eldar will be able to do to flyers once their codex is updated), but for now they're a solid option that can brutalize infantry. IMO you're looking pretty good against infantry. You've got all those kannons, lootas, SAGs, and shoota boyz.

Personally I would be more concerned with mobility than shooting infantry. You can only control three objectives since you only have three scoring units, and on foot you can be easily outmanuevered. Then again footslogging shootas are very strong and once you land on an objective it will be very hard to dislodge you from it. I think you should try it as footsloggers and see what happens.

Well, I'll probably round up points for the grot squad and the aegis defense line to hold my home objective, so that'll help my footsloggers go grab other objectives, i suppose. Guess i'll abandon the idea of burna bommas. Dunno how i'd find the points for them anyway.

Other random question: I've never run the gitz before, so i just put on the two better-looking upgrades, and ran the same amount as you would nobz. How do those of you that use gitz like to outfit them?

Yeah. kinda makes sense

Way to little sleep lately... *sigh*

So, a more "to the topic" question...

As we've ruled that tankbustas are actually useful in this edition, What would you take:

(ignoring that they compete for different slots.. in a less than 2k list, the kopta competes with the dakkajet, which is actually not much of a competition...)

12 Tankbustas, Nob with BP, PK. Max bomb squigs (Roughly 240 pts of the top of my head)

Or

5 deffkoptas with rokkits (roughly 230pts from memory)

Now, they're both Roughly the same cost, and fulfil the same role (ranged anti tank, AV 12 and up)

Basicly the same weapon, though one is twinlinked. Average no. of hits for the koptas should be 2,5ish, whilst roughly 3+2 squighits from the tankbustas.
Koptas Have the speed, and outflank to get them into a better position for rear/side hits on enemy tanks, whilst tankbustas usually get front/side. So, considering this I think they're roughly equal in the fire-power section.
As stated, koptas have speed working for them, along with a 4++/3++, and their increased toughness. You'll have to kill 4 before they can't regroup.
Tankbustas have a bigger head count, are as slow as the rest of your lads and SHOULD be kept close enough for the 5++ kff save at least, lower toughness also means that they're easier to kill.You have to kill 9 before they can't regroup, and the nob with the BP allows a re-roll on all LD tests.

Which would you take?
If we up the the units to 15 tankbustas, and 2x3 koptas, would that change your decision?

//Calle *loving the freedom of the extra FOC at 2k, but still unable to crank out a usefull armylist...*

Bonzofever wrote:
Thanks for the dimensions of ADL, I don't want to spend money on the official stuff, I'm planning to do something more orky.
How about using Ork Barricades? Does anyone know if they have similar dimensions?

I actually own some of those. There are six pieces. If you look at the catalog picture and count from left to right and then down (so 1 is the upper left and 4 is the middle right) here are the dimensions:

1: 3.5" x 1.25"
2: 5.5" x 1" (the tall bit is about 3" tall)
3: 4.5" x 1"
4: 5" x 1"
5: 5.25" x 7/8"
6: 4.5" x 3/4"

Dimensions are approximate and vary quite a bit. So the total length of 27.75" is pretty much the same as the 28" length of the ADL. The only difference is that the sections are different lengths, but if your opponent is the kind of person who gets bothered by that then maybe you need a new opponent. The overall height is roughly shorter than the ADL, but I think the 1.5" is the max height of the ADL and your opponent (who we are assuming is not a dick) should again not care.

There is also the Urban Barricades set, which I also own. Here are the dimensions:

5.25" x 0.75"
5.25" x 1"
5.5" x 1"
5.5" x 0.75"
5.5" x 5/8"
5.75" x 1"

So 32.75" of barricades. Knock off one of them and they would work as well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

loota boy wrote:
Thanks. Sounds pretty cool. I'll probably find a grot squad to put on it for home objective holding. But if i stick a SAG mek in that grot squad, will i have to shoot the SAG at the things the Quad cannon is shooting at?

Yes. They got rid of ICs being able to shoot something other than whatever the artillery unit is firing at. However if your opponent is using flyers you can use the Interceptor ability to get a shot off during their turn and thus be free to shoot at whatever you want during your own turn.

Bonzofever wrote:
Thanks for the dimensions of ADL, I don't want to spend money on the official stuff, I'm planning to do something more orky.
How about using Ork Barricades? Does anyone know if they have similar dimensions?

check out my sig link for my WIP blog. got a 100% scrap ork ADL in the works. its really easy to make an ork adl... but some people are pretty picky about the hight dimentions...

keltikhoa wrote:
check out my sig link for my WIP blog. got a 100% scrap ork ADL in the works. its really easy to make an ork adl... but some people are pretty picky about the hight dimentions...

They look good. Definitely needs more stuff on them though. I find that spackle makes for a great foundation, especially when you glue on bits of sand and then coat the whole thing in watered down PVA to seal it all in.

When I run Flash Gitz (and I do so lurve dem) I runh them with all the upgrades, but no Painboy.

Reason being is this- Shootier, More Dakka, those are obvious choices. Blastas is the one most people get hung up about, but I think it easily pays for itself. It makes it so you're always going to be at least AP5, ups the chances of AP3 from 1/2 to a full 2/3, and ups the chances of being AP2 from 1/3 to 1/2. Also boosts AP1 to a 1/3 chance instead of a 1/6 chance. That's a significant increase, and means they perform just that little bit more reliably. Since 6th's change to the AP damage modifications, the increase (doubling the chances of AP1!) in getting low AP is that much better, increasing the effectiveness of your Str6 shooting against light vehicles.

All this in exchange for Gets Hot!, which can be re-rolled with an Ammo runt, saved with their standard 4+ Armour save, and will still only take a single wound from a Git if it does get through. But this works best if you do shooting individually for each, so you don't have pools of Gets Hot! wounds.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:

keltikhoa wrote:
check out my sig link for my WIP blog. got a 100% scrap ork ADL in the works. its really easy to make an ork adl... but some people are pretty picky about the hight dimentions...

They look good. Definitely needs more stuff on them though. I find that spackle makes for a great foundation, especially when you glue on bits of sand and then coat the whole thing in watered down PVA to seal it all in.

Ya those are stage 1 pics. Getting rubble and random bits and basing pics up soon. I plan to steal the design for the quad gun from the guy who posted pictures of one on page 37 of this thread. thank you to that guy for the brilliant design idea

Anvildude wrote:When I run Flash Gitz (and I do so lurve dem) I runh them with all the upgrades, but no Painboy.

Reason being is this- Shootier, More Dakka, those are obvious choices. Blastas is the one most people get hung up about, but I think it easily pays for itself. It makes it so you're always going to be at least AP5, ups the chances of AP3 from 1/2 to a full 2/3, and ups the chances of being AP2 from 1/3 to 1/2. Also boosts AP1 to a 1/3 chance instead of a 1/6 chance. That's a significant increase, and means they perform just that little bit more reliably. Since 6th's change to the AP damage modifications, the increase (doubling the chances of AP1!) in getting low AP is that much better, increasing the effectiveness of your Str6 shooting against light vehicles.

All this in exchange for Gets Hot!, which can be re-rolled with an Ammo runt, saved with their standard 4+ Armour save, and will still only take a single wound from a Git if it does get through. But this works best if you do shooting individually for each, so you don't have pools of Gets Hot! wounds.

Hmm... that's forty points a git.... How many do you run?

For those with a lot of 6th ed. Ork experience, how have Challenges changed CC?

The old strategy of losing orks off the back line of combat while inflicting PK wounds with the squad's Nob is more-or-less over now, ya?

How are assault-based Ork lists handling this issue?

Anvildude wrote:When I run Flash Gitz (and I do so lurve dem) I runh them with all the upgrades, but no Painboy.

Reason being is this- Shootier, More Dakka, those are obvious choices. Blastas is the one most people get hung up about, but I think it easily pays for itself. It makes it so you're always going to be at least AP5, ups the chances of AP3 from 1/2 to a full 2/3, and ups the chances of being AP2 from 1/3 to 1/2. Also boosts AP1 to a 1/3 chance instead of a 1/6 chance. That's a significant increase, and means they perform just that little bit more reliably. Since 6th's change to the AP damage modifications, the increase (doubling the chances of AP1!) in getting low AP is that much better, increasing the effectiveness of your Str6 shooting against light vehicles.

All this in exchange for Gets Hot!, which can be re-rolled with an Ammo runt, saved with their standard 4+ Armour save, and will still only take a single wound from a Git if it does get through. But this works best if you do shooting individually for each, so you don't have pools of Gets Hot! wounds.

I've never run Flash Gitz, but I've wanted to. A Nob with 'Eavy Armor costs 25 points and a Twin-Linked Shoota makes it 30.

I IMagine they could also be run with a Warphead to make them more effective.

wtwlf123 wrote:For those with a lot of 6th ed. Ork experience, how have Challenges changed CC?

The old strategy of losing orks off the back line of combat while inflicting PK wounds with the squad's Nob is more-or-less over now, ya?

How are assault-based Ork lists handling this issue?

Yes, you can no longer rely on a hidden PK nob to survive and tear apart space marines. I've heard some players talk about just not using nobs at all, which I'm not convinced us but am seriously considering. Nobs seriously suffer in terms of what weapons they can bring. A power klaw, while fantastic against vehicles, sucks against anything other than a throw away character. Necron Lords with their mindshackle scarabs are particularly insane. On the other hand PK Nobs remain the primary means by which you can reliably destroy vehicles and in fact have gotten much better at that job since vehicles are so much easier to hit.

I'm keeping my PK Nobs for now. I seriously consider the likelihood of surviving during challenges. Against something I have no shot (including mindshackle scarabs) I'll just refuse the challenge and let my boyz do the work. Against another upgrade character it will depend on how much damage they can do. Most upgrade characters can't reliably do 2 wounds to a T4 model in a single round of assault, so against those characters I'll accept the challenge and let my PK do its job.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:Yes, you can no longer rely on a hidden PK nob to survive and tear apart space marines. I've heard some players talk about just not using nobs at all, which I'm not convinced us but am seriously considering. Nobs seriously suffer in terms of what weapons they can bring. A power klaw, while fantastic against vehicles, sucks against anything other than a throw away character. Necron Lords with their mindshackle scarabs are particularly insane. On the other hand PK Nobs remain the primary means by which you can reliably destroy vehicles and in fact have gotten much better at that job since vehicles are so much easier to hit.

I'm keeping my PK Nobs for now. I seriously consider the likelihood of surviving during challenges. Against something I have no shot (including mindshackle scarabs) I'll just refuse the challenge and let my boyz do the work. Against another upgrade character it will depend on how much damage they can do. Most upgrade characters can't reliably do 2 wounds to a T4 model in a single round of assault, so against those characters I'll accept the challenge and let my PK do its job.

Thanks. This was the information I was looking for; and afraid of. But I think you're right. You need PKs still, and most of the typical upgrade characters will lose in CC to Nobs. They'll have to hide from most CC-based ICs, but that's what your Warboss is for.

Cheers.

..........

Edit:

I had another question about Ghazghkull's errata'd PotW! ability: It was "nerfed" in that it only adds a bonus to the running phase and you can't run and charge anymore. But it still provides two full turns of Fleet right? I don't care about his PotW! only guaranteeing a 6 for running so long as I still get back to back turns with Fleet for my entire Waaagh!-ing force.

Why not just keep the nobz way in the back? Sure, they are monsters at CC, but since you remove at the front, it doesn't really help them. I will be running them as the absolute last person to get into a melee, only coming to the front if they are fighting a weak opponent or a vehicle. I've always viewed their only purpose for the boss pole, and as a vehicle cracker. Anything else was just icing on the cake.

virx67 wrote:Why not just keep the nobz way in the back? Sure, they are monsters at CC, but since you remove at the front, it doesn't really help them. I will be running them as the absolute last person to get into a melee, only coming to the front if they are fighting a weak opponent or a vehicle. I've always viewed their only purpose for the boss pole, and as a vehicle cracker. Anything else was just icing on the cake.

Well, this is the gameplan now. But it's still a nerf because you can't hit with the PK multiple times a round unless you put the Nob in jeopardy ...unlike in 5th.