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Ozymandias wrote:You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Same for Chaos. I mean why should I use C:CSM anymore? If I'm going to be forced to do a "counts as" army (which is basically what the Chaos codex forces 89% of the Chaos legions to do) why wouldn't I have them "counts as" the army from the codex with more options?

Orlanth wrote:-2ld test scout assaults. Just...slowed....

I think the -2 Ld perfectly reflects the famous terror tactics employed by the Night Lords' as they swoop into combat out of their flying batmobiles.

And obviously the WS and BS 3 represents the fact that these are geriatric veterans, known for their infiltrating prowess, but their poorly maintained and ancient armour now only gives them a 4+ save.
Makes perfect sense!

Lowinor wrote:
Ye gods can we dispense with this? With what we know as of the moment, the weapons aren't "free", but instead "built into the price of the unit", and an increase in cost compared to now anyway.

Still a hamfisted way to write the codex.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

10 man Squads receive Flamers/ML for free
Plasma Guns are 10 pts, Meltas are 5, Lascannons 10 and Plasma Cannons 5

I don't think the flamer/ML are an automatic.

If those figure are correct they should simply have kept the DA weapons prices and be done with it.

Da Boss wrote:And obviously the WS and BS 3 represents the fact that these are geriatric veterans, known for their infiltrating prowess, but their poorly maintained and ancient armour now only gives them a 4+ save.
Makes perfect sense!

Nah, their WS/BS3 represents the impediment to their movement and aim posed by the humongous scary bat wings they wear on their heads.

Scouts are just cultists now, everyone needs some good fodder.

What a nutty thread. Space Marines have been nerfed to hell but are the new supreme power in the galaxy. ORks are unbeatable, but their new codex is already obsolete. Terminators are too ridiculously good, but too expensive to actually think about taking. Squads of 10 are two points more each, but have 20 points of "free" weapons.

Just for a minute, imagine that the guys who came up with 5th ed might have an idea what they're doing better than you.

Whoa, no way that just blew my mind! I didn't think game designers were ever capable of planning ahead, everything has changed.

biztheclown wrote:What a nutty thread. Space Marines have been nerfed to hell but are the new supreme power in the galaxy. ORks are unbeatable, but their new codex is already obsolete. Terminators are too ridiculously good, but too expensive to actually think about taking. Squads of 10 are two points more each, but have 20 points of "free" weapons.

Just for a minute, imagine that the guys who came up with 5th ed might have an idea what they're doing better than you.

But if that happened, what would the negative nancy's have to discuss? No matter what, the fan boyz will see the glass half full and the nay sayers will see it half empty. there is nothing we can do about that.

two_heads_talking wrote:

biztheclown wrote:What a nutty thread. Space Marines have been nerfed to hell but are the new supreme power in the galaxy. ORks are unbeatable, but their new codex is already obsolete. Terminators are too ridiculously good, but too expensive to actually think about taking. Squads of 10 are two points more each, but have 20 points of "free" weapons.

Just for a minute, imagine that the guys who came up with 5th ed might have an idea what they're doing better than you.

But if that happened, what would the negative nancy's have to discuss? No matter what, the fan boyz will see the glass half full and the nay sayers will see it half empty. there is nothing we can do about that.

If that happened, the entire Internet would dry up, turn into dust, and blow away...

Well there's nothing wrong with discussing what people think should be done and how they'd like things to change just as long as it doesn't get out of hand or people just suggesting horribly over the top things. Game designers are just people though and they mess up sometimes, it's what FAQs and erratas are for.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Same for Chaos. I mean why should I use C:CSM anymore? If I'm going to be forced to do a "counts as" army (which is basically what the Chaos codex forces 89% of the Chaos legions to do) why wouldn't I have them "counts as" the army from the codex with more options?

Brilliant. All those poor suckers who have fully painted Armored Companies should now play them as Nidzilla. Or better yet, I'll play my D-Eldar with Ork rules, because the Ork codex has more options.

Alpharius wrote:I hear that the Cyclone Missile Launcher will now give the model one sustained fire die!

Really!

No, it's actually the Thunderfire launcher with it's three modes of fire, launchng the player's choice of either sustained fire dice, artillery dice or overwatch counters.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Well there's nothing wrong with discussing what people think should be done and how they'd like things to change just as long as it doesn't get out of hand or people just suggesting horribly over the top things. Game designers are just people though and they mess up sometimes, it's what FAQs and erratas are for.

It's true, the Developers are lowly humans such as we are. It really is such a shame that we only get FAQ's ever 2-3 years, and they refuse to retroactively go back and fix broken aspects of Codex's/Army Books.

I guess in some ways it's just too much trouble to go back and re-write a rule. Plus I guess they don't want to deal with people waking up one day and having something that was a little too effective taken out of their book and getting angry. It's just easier to leave things as they are and vaguely promise a change in the future. I feel like a lot of the explanations and stuff given by games workshop staff are just ways to placate people so they'll stop complaining. Example. I don't really think books will come out for individual chaos legions much like an Alien Hunters codex never came out, but they talked about it because people were wanting it.

Polonius wrote:I was talking to my buddy about the nature of the new SM compared to the old CSM one, and he had the unmitigated gall to say that people were only complaining about the nerf, which lead me to explain in graphic detail the ways the codexs are different, in terms of simply eliminating entire build concepts.

Seriously, how many bike heavy MEQ lists, in todays all-killer/no-filler philosophy, does the environment need?

Yes, many of us know the difference between how Ravenwing, White Scars, and Nightlords should look, fight and play on the tabletop;

DA/BA players, well.... Ouside of RW/DW and all jump armies, I agree there's increasingly little reason to play them.

Finally, and while I have a Space marine army, I'm mostly an IG player. As an IG player, I have exactly one codex to use. Any MEQ player, in today's brave new "no chapters, no legions" environment can use six different codexes for the same base of Powered armored guys with bolters. Sure, every codex has it's unique units, but with 1500pts of basic MEQs and vehicles and a few 1000pt sideboards an army can be built that can easily use 6 different codex books. This isn't MEQ hate, it's just pointing out that thinking in terms of a single MEQ codex is self limiting. It's a brave new world.

Exactly right. The new-style Codices are all about paring back options so that armies have more distinctive play styles with reduced overlap.

In the brave new world, *one* MEQ Biker army is more than enough. Two is overkill, considering how goofy bikes are as a fighting concept in the Far Future of Humanity. Splitting hairs to such a fine degree is simply unnecessary, particularly from the opponent's POV. It's enough for someone to see that he's against MEQ Bikers to let him know he's playing Ravenwing, rather than having to guess what his opponent plays. Which makes it harder to confuse and cheat.

In the same vein, *one* Terminator army and *one* Jump army are enough.

BTW, nice advertisment for Jervis-style "grey marines".

Well, I'm think that there is room for plenty of lists, but that ship has sailed. IMO, there's no reason there can't be White Scars (loyalist bikers who are good fighters on bikes in a heavy cavalry mode), Ravenwing (loyalist bikers who are more mobile and agile in a light cavalry mode), and Nightlords (traitor bikers and raptors that have more psychological advantages). Of course, this requires balancing three lists and would cost a lot of resources.

And in the last sentence, you give a very compelling reason why not. High cost for marginal (if any) payback.

Put another way, given that GW has limited resources (which translates into limited releases, maximum 5 per year), which would you rather GW produce first:
- Imperial Guard, then Biel-Tan
- Space Wolves, then Necrons
- White Scars, then Night Lords

To me, the above order is preferable. Non-MEQs, then somewhat interesting MEQs, lastly hair-splitting MEQs. The last thing that 40k needs right now is more redundantly duplicative MEQs pushed to the fore of the releases.

biztheclown wrote:But if that happened, what would the negative nancy's have to discuss? No matter what, the fan boyz will see the glass half full and the nay sayers will see it half empty. there is nothing we can do about that.

I'm an engineer, and the glass is neither half-full nor half-empty. It has a factor of safety of 2.0. Or, it isn't being used to its maximum design capacity by the Owner.

Back to the topic. I'm just glad that I play SW. I get the benefit of horribly overpowered stuff for a few months before the SW codex is redone.

Nay, the glass is oversized by a factor of 100%

I dont know if anyone allready posted it but there are some bew rumours on BOLS

Link: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/

For those too lazy to click the link, directly taken from BOLS:

Marneus Calgar
First off, Marneus Calgar is described as awesome; the Abaddon of loyalists. Not simply because he's an outstanding fighter but because of the support he provides for his army. He gives all Ultramarines the ability to pass or fail any Leadership test (other reports say morale checks). This is a superior ability to Combat Tactics as that only works in CC and the marines can normally only choose to fail.

Marneus also has a rule called "God of War" which allows him to re-roll virtually anything (shooting to hit rolls, attacks rolls in assualt, to wound rolls). It is basically the psychic power Warp Time, but is always on and works with Marneus' shooting. His storm bolter built into the Gauntlets of Ultramar is AP2. Marneus had 4 base attacks on his statline and is armed with two powerfists. ~you do the math

Calgar possesses Eternal Warrior without any mention of a mantle. Power armour is apparently no longer an option for him, but his "Honour Guard" are still in power armor. Finally, he's wearing his Terminator armour with an additional 4+ invulnerable save.

Honor Guard Vs Command Squads
There is a bit of confusion regarding these units so here are some other morsels we've heard. Honour Guard and Command Squads are two different things. Only "Chapter Masters" can get Honour Guard and they cannot take apothecaries (so no Honor Guard-Feel No Pain combos). Command Squads are available for company captains. The leader of the Command Squad is the company champion who gets to re-roll all hits against enemy ICs.

Sounds like fun or not depending on which side of the line you stand.

Nice to see my half brother getting a bit of love. Guess he must have misplaced his power armour.

BYE

We cant really make 100% confirmations on the new SM codex because, here is the strange part.. its not out yet!!! so we cant really say much about it, i went to the local GW store and talked about it with one of the employee's and he said its absolutely awesome... so there is really not much point of arguing about whats happened unless U have actually seen the codex...
The only thing i know 100% is that its coming out in October (AUS) and that there is alot of information about 1st founded chapters...

Cheers,
Gutteridge

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Well there's nothing wrong with discussing what people think should be done and how they'd like things to change just as long as it doesn't get out of hand or people just suggesting horribly over the top things. Game designers are just people though and they mess up sometimes, it's what FAQs and erratas are for.

It's true, the Developers are lowly humans such as we are. It really is such a shame that we only get FAQ's ever 2-3 years, and they refuse to retroactively go back and fix broken aspects of Codex's/Army Books.

And in any other company, if they made the same mistakes over and over, they would have been replaced.

I am constantly amazed at the ability of people to scream that the sky is falling. I know it's the internet, and I know that's the whole point of a forum dedicated to rumors, but I'm still shocked. Especially since many of the people screaming bloody murder are veterans who have been through enough pre-release rumor-fests to know better.

Does anyone remember when a picture of the Ork codex weapons summary was leaked? People saw the two Ordnance weapons that Orks were getting (Killakannon and the Boomgun) and everyone instantly declared that Ork shooting was going to be completely broken and that Space Marines would be blasted from the table by a massive horde of Ork ordnance weapons.

Now. . .when's the last time you saw an Ork player using multiple Killakannons and/or a Boomguns? How about even one? Maybe you've seen one in a game, but I'm sure it wasn't busy ruining the game of 40K.

Until you see the points cost of the units and their abilities and the context within the ability can be taken and used, you can't know what is balanced or crazy-abusive. And it certainly isn't worth the time and effort to type out how much everything is broken and horrible before you even know it to be true.

The fact is, marines currently have some pretty sick abilities.

How about a psychic power that makes all models within 12" take a morale check at -2 Ld and if they fail they run off the board? How about if you can take two models with this power and then deep strike them into the middle of an enemy army?

How about a psychic power that shoots all the way across the table ignoring LOS and does multiple hits on every enemy unit it crosses?

How about a vehicle that allows players to stack multiple minefields at the feet of units thereby making it nearly impossible for horde armies to assault them without perishing?

How about a piece of wargear that nullfies every enemy psychic power about 50% of the time?

How about Devestator squads w/ 4 Heavy Bolters that get +1 to their armor penetration rolls against vehicles so they're great against both infantry and light vehicles?

How about SM armies with 12+ Assault Cannons?

How about a commander that gives Ld10 to the entire army?

When you consider that many of these items are likely either going the way of the dodo (the psychic powers, the Whirlwind minefield and the Tank Hunters vet skill) or being altered (psychic hoods), frankly I don't care about any of those new toys because the toys the Space Marines are losing were way sicker.

And who cares about the wacky toys that the Techmarine is able to get? The fact is, the basic marine squad has been changed to limit the amount of heavy and special weapons the unit can carry so a marine army as a whole is going to be forced to spend a lot more of its points on basic marines with a bolter.

Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

yakface wrote:Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

The sky may not be falling, but when Yakface says that he is looking forward to a marine codex, it is surely a sign of the end times.

Hellfury wrote:

yakface wrote:Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

The sky may not be falling, but when Yakface says that he is looking forward to a marine codex, it is surely a sign of the end times.

LOL (and I actually mean that).

True, true. I guess all it takes is rampant doomsday predictions based on partial information to get me to defend Space Marines. . .shame on me.

yakface wrote:Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

I have to say that the new codex is making me put together a new marine army; but because the list sounds to be the most fun marine list yet. From everything I've seen so far it's going to be a reduction in power from the current one, but still competitive.

It's ok Yakface, I'll be sure to stick up for your Guard when the doomsday machine has its sights on that new codex

Hellfury wrote:The sky may not be falling

Actually, current rumor state that Shrike grants army wide fleet. If that's correct, I'm going to field some 3+inv, Hammerwielding, fleeting assault termies, modeled with ballerina costumes to indicate their special status. Then the sky will fall...

His Master's Voice wrote:

Hellfury wrote:The sky may not be falling

Actually, current rumor state that Shrike grants army wide fleet. If that's correct, I'm going to field some 3+inv, Hammerwielding, fleeting assault termies, modeled with ballerina costumes to indicate their special status. Then the sky will fall...

Yeah, haven't seen too much discussion about that, mostly other fairly inconsequential things. Shrike granting universal Fleet plus 3+ invulnerable Storm Shields is really, really strong if it's true. Of course, it's still going to require an expensive IC and expensive non-scoring units, but it'll make deep striking assault termis viable.

And we return to the regularly scheduled gnashing of teeth about "free" weapons on tactical squads...