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Seriously HBMC, Last Action Hero references? Sheesh.

Of course now I feel so unclean for having recognized it.

haha, oh man. So people are honestly complaining about an Armor 10 Speeder? Well then. That's it. 40k is too much for me. D:

On the other end of the spectrum I don't really care about how many nifty options i get. I want to have a 7 man tactical squad and a special weapon. I'm ok with losing a Heavy weapon. thats my choice. But to be forced to bring a 10 man squad? Stupid.

If the rumours do turn out to be true, marines are going to be HELLUH expensive.

Tac the "free" tactical squad upgrade for instance.

170 points buys you 10 marines with a special (flamer) and a heavy (ML or HB).

But what happens if you want to take, say for instance, a meltagun and a plasma cannon?

You can bet your sweet patootie that the cost of those other weapons hasn't gone down, if anything the price has exponentially increased. So now you would be paying a base cost of 17 points per marine and then add the increased cost of the increased cost heavy weapons. It actually would be within the realm of reason to pay close to 350 points a a tactical squad that is kitted the way you want it after including a rhino.

I am not saying that it would be a bad thing, as heavy weapons need to be balanced but as HBMC said, GW has a nasty way of overbalancing so that it is again unbalanced, just on the other side of the pendulum.

That is ofcourse, if the rumours are actually true.

*face palms*

Yeah, that's what I meant. Damn you Xbox!

I seriously hope the existing chapter marine dexes get a FAQ after this is released.

They probably will.

They also probably will NOT get the "upgrades" and "what-nots" too though...

What are "upgrades" and "whatnots"?

H.B.M.C. wrote:180 you spaghetti-slurping cretin - 180! If they did a 360 I'd be facing the exact same way I started!!



BYE

*cookie for the reference

Except the argument is that GW have already gone 180 in their design philosophy, and are now doing a second 180 by adding in all the new stuff. So they'd be back to 360.

I disagree that a 180/360, because the restrictions are still in place. There isn't going to be an armoury. Units are still restricted by squad size, the doctrines and sub-list rules won't be there. The six man las/plas team is gone, which further encourages troops to act like troops and not devestators lite. The focus on using structures and unit limits to get armies playing a certain way seems to be consistant with the DA/BA books. There's a pile of new toys being added, but the underlying core appears the same.

Hellfury wrote:
As for referring to white dwarf articles...yeah....I think I will reserve my intelligence for something worth my time. They can say whatever they want to in those rags, but that doesn't make it logical. What little I have read in WD doesn't discredit my stance that DA/BA were NOT made with 5th ed in mind. As I have said, the frequent changes to the leaked 5th ed rulebook in a matter of weeks or less is proof enough of that.

Try again, thanks for playing.

I would quote the white dwarfs but they where not worth saving and or buying. But we both know how that goes.

sebster wrote:I disagree that a 180/360, because the restrictions are still in place.

Ditto. It's easily a 720. A 1080 perhaps even.

BYE

davidson wrote:I would quote the white dwarfs but they where not worth saving and or buying.

The bolded part of this statement is rendered redundant by the unbolded part.

BYE

I think that a big number of us complaining is not that we are loosing our Las/plas tac marines. Its coming from us who don't play marines at all and now have to fight this new improved beast. Marines had enough toys in the old book to give us fits (if the guy playing them were even half way competent), but now there are all these new uber toys that seemingly ignore all the limitations that a new rule set has also befallen us.

Worse, this raise in power is a kick in the teeth for those of use who have just had our armies nerfed by the last three codex. Do I really have to wait another 8 years for a new ork codex to come out so that it will stand up against this new marine codex when combined with the new rule set. Don't give me that 180 ork BS either. Some of us love orks but can't stand running or playing horde style lists.

Everything presented so far is just rubbing salt in the wounds of all us Chaos, BA, DA players for what they did to our armies.

Jayden63 wrote:Some of us love orks but can't stand running or playing horde style lists.

Perhaps you are playing the wrong army?

My KOS army did awesome with burnas, nobs with powerclaws, and orks that hit on I4 on the charge. It didn't have a lot of numbers, but it did perform well.

Why can't I have that still. 5th ed new orks KOS is still very much in the air to its effectiveness. The new rules just slam our small unit count too much.

But this is an discussion for another thread.

isn't there going to be sections of the SM codex for secondary codex's because i wonder if they get any thing 'special' besides a IC character...

cheers,
Gutteridge

For More General Codex Info & Special Characters go to.
link: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/07/rumors-codex-space-marines-ics-and-more.html

I simply can't see how those chaos space marines, Imperial Storm Troopers or that big ork warboss would cower before five boys with their first big pistol and pig sticker who jump from a speeder.

Lowinor wrote:Scoring veterans? Considering vanguard are 25 points apiece, and most scary when you add a 5 point combi-weapon, for a squad of ten in a drop pod, you're looking at close to 400 points with special weapons and someone with a fist. And that's before you pay 300ish for Lysander to make them scoring. And then to get them really scary, you want Vulkan to reroll those flamer wounds, for another 300ish points...

I don't see why anyone's thinking we'll get to stack special characters' abilities like that. There's no reason for them to allow it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:180 you spaghetti-slurping cretin - 180! If they did a 360 I'd be facing the exact same way I started!!

Stunning news, HBMC admits to sharing GW's point of view. Has he in fact been in deep (and I do mean deep) undercover all this time, and is actually a GW stooge?

Agamemnon2 wrote:
I don't see why anyone's thinking we'll get to stack special characters' abilities like that. There's no reason for them to allow it.

Yes there is.

Because Teh Spase Marinez!

That's why.

I'm still not seeing the super stupid broken here.

When you try to play a "Codex" style list with the 10 Man Squads, Rhinos, etc, you pay out the nose for it. As others have pointed out, add up the proverbial points for these things and see how much they cost.

Oh and just as a question, where did this rumor of the Cyclone Missile Launcher becoming Heavy 2 come from? I have two units of Termies with this on them, just because I like the model, tell me that all of a sudden they don't suck!

Jayden63 wrote:

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

How on earth can it be too messed up if we haven't heard a single points cost?????????

Honestly, even at current points I am not thinking this is too horrible.
Storm shields 3+: Who is really scared of assault terminators? They are expensive, have to have a ride to get to you in a reasonable amount of time (granted, Landraiders are strong now) and attack last with a thunder hammer. Is that really so bad? Storm shields on other models cost what, 15-25 points? The only thing I see is characters starting to field them in combination with a thunder hammer, but otherwise I suspect it will still be power weapon/pistol as current.

Free weapons on 10 man squads: those weapons are already dirt cheap or never taken. Heavy Bolters are 5 poins, 1/3 the price of a marine. Same with flamers. Multi-meltas... who wants those? Missile launchers are ok, but suffer from not being a lascannon. Vehicles being as tough as they are now, as well as slightly more common cover, it isn't super duper.
Add in the fact you need 8 bolters to go with those free weapons, and can get NOTHING if you don't take all 10, it isn't too bad. You are still going to see a net drop in heavy and special weapons in marine armies.

I will however sympathize with folks who say they want free heavies/specials too. Hell, Sisters' minimum squad size is 10, and I get crappy weapons choices!

I would also like to reiterate my previous statement that most of the new toys are Elites. Generally elites are pretty pricey, but even beyond that, they don't score, and you get 3. Assuming retinues are out (which seems to be the theme lately) you get Termies, Dreads, Veterans and a techmarine, but only 3 of those 4 even if you max out.

If anything, the changes seem to represent a net loss of heavy and special weapons which are made slighty more efficient by way of combat squads, assault terminators that might actually live to assault without an expensive tank, and some expensive characters to give your army tricks.
All in all, it sounds pretty nifty, though probably not enough to make me want to paint more marines.

I don't think that this is a matter of the new rumoured Marine Dex being overpowered, but that they added lots of customization to it - where as the codecies that immediately preceeded it have little to no customization.

Well the possibility of being overpowered is around too. If any of the special characters are just-too-good with a certain build, it'll be just like Eldrad flying around fighting battles all over the galaxy.

I can imagine an Alpha Legion v.2 using Shrike and pals or a DP army with that guy that makes meltas and flamers awesome.

As long as the points costs are okay it shouldn't be too bad.
Assault terminators should rip through hordes of ork boys, it just makes sense!

Jayden63 wrote:Why do we even bother playing other races?

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

Exactly how I felt reading these (and the other) rumors. It would be different if this were the codex to start a brave new world of huge codexes with involved options for each entry and so many wonder weapons ... but it's not. C:SM comes in the midst of the unforunate-but-grudgingly-accepted stripped down codex structure they foisted upon us over the last year plus, and beats it to a pulp. The armory page is still missing but all the entries themselves are so loaded with shiny killy options that the point is moot. Makes me wonder what the hell the future holds for Dark Eldar, Wolves, Necrons - I suspect C'Tan with 2 pages of options

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I wonder if GW will now offer chaos a similar bone, include the 'Sons of Redemption' chapter who have white Xs through their chaos marks?

QFT

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Believe it or not, I don't think any of this is going to be nearly as overpowered as everyone thinks they will be.

Marines will need to be in squads of 10 to be useful. That's a fairly hefty amount of points. And it's not like the synergy between the Flamer and those heavy weapons is all that great. IMO I'd probably want my tacticals on the move with Heavy weapons fire being relegated to Devs or Vehicles.

You and your rational thinking!

- Salvage

I'm just looking out for the little guy. Namely my armies that arn't marines.

landraiders with two S6 AP3 flamers. techmarines with S10 Ap1 large blasts templates, Orbital Barrages with S10 AP 1 large blast templates.

And poor necrons with a 12 model phase out. Yeash.

I'm sure GW has tested each of these new toys as individuals and has seen no problem with them. Unfortunatly they don't have an unfun git on their staff who will combine all these toys together and say umm... dudes this is just wrong. Why take more than two scoring units when you can table the other guy by turn 5? That leaves you a lots of points to spend on the toys that can do just that.

C: SM comes in the midst of the unforunate-but-grudgingly-accepted stripped down codex structure they foisted upon us over the last year plus, and beats it to a pulp.

You think the SM dex is starting a new trend? Take a look at the ork dex, THAT is the new template for 5ed codexes. Extremely good Troop choices. Knock your socks off elite choices. HQs that adjust the FOC or add some strong abilities to the list. And I am sure many choices that are simply over costed compared to the other choices. Ork dex is FAR from stripped down overall. The SM dex seems to be following that same trend IMHO.

Hmmmmmm ... so C:SM is in fact the next book in the game of Kellyhammer, as opposed to Jervishammer that some of us are stuck playing . The master with the page of options was a dead give away that this is Phil Kelly in action, not sure why I missed it until now.

Side note: Did Kelly take a break from his xenos lovefest to write this one?

- Salvage

Yeah lol, I do think Kelly may have had a hand in this one. Sure seems like his work based on the rumors, which it really is too bad that he doesn't write all the codexes. Wouldn't that create more of a balance if ONE guy writes them, as opposed to different dev that have obviously different philosophies on army design? And preferably the guy that seems to get how to keep armies fluffy and fun to play at the same time.