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Ohhh OK then, since you insist, hand me the design notes and I'll sort them all out.

Right, let's start with bolters, clearly they're overpowered: 18" S3 AP6 Rapid Fire for you...

I thought we heard that Jervis was writing this one?

That's what had me nervous initially.

Not anymore though!

stonefox wrote:Well the possibility of being overpowered is around too. If any of the special characters are just-too-good with a certain build, it'll be just like Eldrad flying around fighting battles all over the galaxy.

I can imagine an Alpha Legion v.2 using Shrike and pals or a DP army with that guy that makes meltas and flamers awesome.

I can imagine that too!

Yes, yes I can!

(Thanks for that!)

It really is silly that generic marines will have more wargear options than BA and DA armies along with better/mor unit options to pick from?

So, how much of the 4 pages so far is people more concerned about what their army isn't getting by comparison?

Wehrkind wrote:Honestly, even at current points I am not thinking this is too horrible.
Storm shields 3+: Who is really scared of assault terminators?

Free weapons on 10 man squads: those weapons are already dirt cheap or never taken.

I will however sympathize with folks who say they want free heavies/specials too. Hell, Sisters' minimum squad size is 10, and I get crappy weapons choices!

I would also like to reiterate my previous statement that most of the new toys are Elites.

TH&SS Termies also won't get a bonus attack for 2 CCWs - the TH counts as a PF, and you need 2 PF to get the +1A for 2 CCWs. So TH&SS Termies are a super-defensive unit, the opposite of twin LC Termies. So I like this change on Termies.

Black Templars Assault Marines use a separate Codex that doesn't reference C: SM. So the BT-specific SS is only Sv4++.

The "Free" weapons are only worth around 10 points total - you hardly saw them on the cheaper 6-man squads, so you probably won't see them on even more expensive 10-man squads unless points are really tight.

Sisters and IG could also use "free" weapons, tho Sisters are very fairly priced right now, whereas IG and Storms are overpriced. I can see GW doing this in the next IG and Inquisition Codices.

And I concur with the notion that this isn't such a big deal as it's mostly expensive, Non-Scoring HQ and Elites that we're talking about.

I think one of the biggest problems is that, apparently, no one at GW is a cheesy jerk. They ought to hire some.

Codex CSM was a big mistake, or atleast an excuse of a codex, where they took all the Chaos out of a Chaos Space Marine codex. - lets kep it out of this though, what sense would it make to do another crap codex just to be "fair" to all the CSM players out there??

Eldar - brilliant Dex
Orks - brilliant Dex
Apocalypse - fantastic hobby behemoth
5th ed - solved 4 in a very satisfactory manner

I'm quite digging GW's current direction and confident the new book will be just as great as Orks and Eldar. ...and even the non marine players should applaud the end of LasPlas SAFH and the birth of several viable marine setups and gorgeous new minis.

The one upshot of the latest C:CSM? In light of the latest codexes, including this SM one, Codex: Chaos Legions is going to be absolutely insane. Swing back pendulum, swing back!

- Salvage

I think having to take 10 men tacticals inorder to have effective Troop choices is probably why we see all these crazy toys. Yeah you have some nice options but balancing your needs for 5ed with the restrictions placed on tacticals will be a tad difficult. Just ask DA and BA players, who have even less restrictive options for troops.

Speaking off, I always thought it lame in 3ed and early 4ed that the sub dexes had all the stuff that generic marines have plus their own goodies with no tangible negatives. It seems people still expect this trend, which is pure BS imho.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oh and just as a question, where did this rumor of the Cyclone Missile Launcher becoming Heavy 2 come from? I have two units of Termies with this on them, just because I like the model, tell me that all of a sudden they don't suck!

I saw this rumour posted by two seperate people at B&C a couple weeks ago who so far seem to be reliable sources of rumours.

Take that for what it is worth.

Thanks HF!

That's the one really positive thing I've read about the new SM Dex that actually caught my interest.

To be honest though, most of my local group translates "40k v5" to mean more WHFB & Warmachine. I'm just happy that when I do get talked into playing some friendly games with friends my Termy units are actually pretty useful!

Making cyclones heavy two sounds like a great idea to me. I've practically never seen anyone use them, maybe with the extra shot that will change.

You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

IMO, the Cyclone looks more twin-linked than Heavy 2...

I bet the clowns selling assault cannons for $15 in 4th edition all worked for GW.

winterman wrote:Yeah lol, I do think Kelly may have had a hand in this one. Sure seems like his work based on the rumors, which it really is too bad that he doesn't write all the codexes. Wouldn't that create more of a balance if ONE guy writes them, as opposed to different dev that have obviously different philosophies on army design? And preferably the guy that seems to get how to keep armies fluffy and fun to play at the same time.

There’s an idea floating around that the guy who’s name is on the codex sits down and writes the codex, seemingly without any oversight or review. It’s a very odd idea. I’d be very surprised if the rules weren’t created collaboratively, with everyone throwing in ideas and playtesting a range of variant rules.

The guy with his name on the codex is likely responsible for putting the final rules into writing, getting all the fluff text together, and getting the whole thing into a publishable document.

I'd be very surprised if they playtested.

Ozymandias wrote:You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ah c'mon Ozy. Keep the faith brother. It's the only thing keeping us Chaos players going. Why should your Dark Angel players be any different?

We'll all get a good Codex... one day...





BYE

My Dark Angels, whom I have played since RT (back when they were black ), will have a grand view of my gaming table......from the shelf.

The *Insert family relation/medieval rank/weapon type* Of *insert geographical location/emotion/other word for conflict*

Will rule all. Enter the new vanilla marines.

I hear that the Cyclone Missile Launcher will now give the model one sustained fire die!

Really!

Lol, they were my favourite dice too.

Ozymandias wrote:You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I'm with you here...that red marine head in my sig will simply mean I play generic red marines.

I was talking to my buddy about the nature of the new SM compared to the old CSM one, and he had the unmitigated gall to say that people were only complaining about the nerf, which lead me to explain in graphic detail the ways the codexs are different, in terms of simply eliminating entire build concepts.

Anyway, I think there are two ways to look at this:
1) GW hates Chaos, and wanted to vanillafy that army.
2) Counts as!

Seriously, how many bike heavy MEQ lists, in todays all-killer/no-filler philosophy, does the environment need? I'd like a bunch, but that's clearly not an option, so getting one (two for now, but the new marines might squash it) allows anybody that wants a lot of bikes to build at least a workable list.

Yes, many of us know the difference between how Ravenwing, White Scars, and Nightlords should look, fight and play on the tabletop; but my days of cursing GW because they couldn't take the time to write and balance a list that has Bikes and Deathwing with a list that has Bikes and Daemon is coming to an end.

DA/BA players, well.... Ouside of RW/DW and all jump armies, I agree there's increasingly little reason to play them.

Finally, and while I have a Space marine army, I'm mostly an IG player. As an IG player, I have exactly one codex to use. Any MEQ player, in today's brave new "no chapters, no legions" environment can use six different codexes for the same base of Powered armored guys with bolters. Sure, every codex has it's unique units, but with 1500pts of basic MEQs and vehicles and a few 1000pt sideboards an army can be built that can easily use 6 different codex books. This isn't MEQ hate, it's just pointing out that thinking in terms of a single MEQ codex is self limiting. It's a brave new world.

super boost marines to make sales to keep GW studio monkeys in their jobs.

I hope someone is playing a joke on us with these rumours. Some are admittedly improvements, but even a drooling cretin could learn how to improve an existant GW codex if he hangs out at a forum or convention for more than a few minutres. It beggars belief how badly these guys can screw up after so long.

The worst:

Free heavy weapons. This doesn't even feel right, what a hamfisted way to encourage flamers and missile launchers. Up to a point they already had it partly right by upping the lascannon price.
they shoukld have kept things as they are, put a premium on plasma and lascannon and allowed combat squads if you take 10, which is an incentive in itself.

-2ld test scout assaults. Just...slowed....

I have a vanilla SM army and profit heavily from these changes, and yet I am not happy at all with them.

TH&SS Termies also won't get a bonus attack for 2 CCWs - the TH counts as a PF, and you need 2 PF to get the +1A for 2 CCWs. So TH&SS Termies are a super-defensive unit, the opposite of twin LC Termies. So I like this change on Termies.

You never got the bonus attack with TH&SS for 2 CCW's anyways. Other than getting a storm shield buff, nothing has changed with them.

Capt K

Orlanth wrote:
Free heavy weapons. This doesn't even feel right, what a hamfisted way to encourage flamers and missile launchers. Up to a point they already had it partly right by upping the lascannon price.
they shoukld have kept things as they are, put a premium on plasma and lascannon and allowed combat squads if you take 10, which is an incentive in itself.

10 man Squads receive Flamers/ML for free
Plasma Guns are 10 pts, Meltas are 5, Lascannons 10 and Plasma Cannons 5

I don't think the flamer/ML are an automatic.

Orlanth wrote:The worst:

Free heavy weapons. This doesn't even feel right, what a hamfisted way to encourage flamers and missile launchers. Up to a point they already had it partly right by upping the lascannon price.

Ye gods can we dispense with this? With what we know as of the moment, the weapons aren't "free", but instead "built into the price of the unit", and an increase in cost compared to now anyway.

Agreed, it's built into the cost. Kind of like the Death Company marines that BA players get for "free". Compare the cost of a tac squad between the codexes...that DC marine isn't free.

Do you guys think they will drop the points cost of terminators at all, mabye 5 less each? I would love to shove 4 thunderhammer and one lightning claw termies into a crusader with a chaplain, but the points would be over a third of my total army, even in larger 1500 point games. 1750 I think this unit would get wiped out too easily to justify the points cost.