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@ skrulnik

Console company aside , most games are produced from different companies. One video game's life expectancy and worth is both shorter and cheaper than a "collectible" fieldable warhammer army.

What im trying to say is , 1 video game company messes up , you can turn tail easily and find something else. Not so easy for Warhammer since you "invested" in it already.

How else can GW 's mistakes codex after codex keep going and yet still keep us hooked? Because we cant easily get rid of our current *luggage and find an alternative.

Vaktathi wrote:So no, I don't *hate* GW, I think they have a lot of problems that a handful of sane and competent individuals could fix.

I hold the same opinion. I want nothing more than GW to be a successful business, I just don't think that being a successful business and being good to those that give them all this money are mutually exclusive. Rules, rules support, release scheds, relationships with independant retailers - all of these things have issues, some minor, some extreme, and yet they don't see to either know, care about or want to do anything about them.

So that brings me to my main question - are these problems that are 'obvious' to us actually obvious. Let's use an easy topic, Dark Eldar, as an example:

Statement: 10+ years to revise a Codex is a joke. How can they treat customers like that? Is it because:

1. They don't know.
2. They don't care.
3. Something else.
4. All of the above.

Are the 'obvious' problems truly that obvious, or are we just paying more attention than we should be?

I don't hate GW.
I just don't buy as much of their stuff anymore (although, since I've been playing this game from the get-go, I've really got enough to keep me going for many years) as I don't really need anymore, and if I do, I can probably build what I do need (and it will cost me less than a GW kit, & be distinctively mine).
When I do buy GW stuff, I go through online discounters.

If I only had the option of paying GW retail, I'd have given it up years ago.

The DE codex was revised in 2002, wasn't it?

I'm starting to see some improvements in the new codecies, particularly those by Phil Kelly and the most recent IG codex. I was worrying that their codex line was going downhill after the sorry attempt at writing that the CSM codex was.

Luna

I guess I just do not see the different companies. I am comparing the hobbies.
Video games and tabletop games.
Not 40k and, say, Halo.

To me GW is not the only thing out there for Gaming.
If I am not happy with how an army works, I can just as easily switch to Field of Glory, or Flames of War.
Or I can work on another army for a GW game. I got options.
Same for consoles.
If I am unhappy with one platform, I can switch, or rent/buy another game from a different producer.
Either way, I am still putting money into that hobby.


I think a big difference in value among those of us in this hobby can be if one sees assembly and painting as time spent, or time doing something enjoyable.
If one considers the assembly and painting as a necessary evil, than there is less value.
I do not. I consider everything from looking at the sprue to using a unit in game as entertainment time I am getting from my purchase.
Well, everything except scraping mold lines. That I consider a necessary evil.

The conclusion: we love GW's games and models, we hate their business model/practices and prices.

Basically.

Cheese Elemental wrote:The DE codex was revised in 2002, wasn't it?

Doesn't count. And besides, it doesn't answer the question I put forward, and my question is non-specific to Dark Eldar anyway, it could be anything within their business, I just picked DE because it's a well known one.

It was a small revision at that. All I remember were a few new Vehicle upgrades that no one used if it wasn't Nightshields and occasionally terrorfexes(or horrorfexes, whichever one was vehicle mounted.)

sourclams wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong when a company puts profits as their #1 priority. That's what they're there for: to make money.

The problem is, nothing GW is doing points at a sustainable business plan that will keep them making money. Hiking prices does nothing but send a GW customer to a distributor that will offer a bulk discount.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

What do you do in five more years when you're the only one willing to pay those prices? Mechwarrior and Heroclix were two games that brought a helluvalot of people happiness, and they're basically "gone" now. What then?

Um mechwarriors died because wizkids destroyed it by cutting out there booster packs and having no prize support for there games and tournys (Action packs my ass). And as for hero click well Tops shut down wizkids because they kept horribly destroying there service. (Tops owns wizkids. or did anyways) It does not have much to do with price for either one of your examples.

And as for me well Ill be the only one with some of the cool new models that they wil be releasing for -army name here- And if games workshop is still around in 5 years I apparently am not the only one still buying there models.

Miguelsan wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

There we go again. I don´t know UK´s business law but your statement sounds weird. So any company based in the UK must give dividends by law? How about a company that decides to expand using last year´s profits to offer a higher share value, are they breaking the law? What´s the punishment for the board if they fail to increase profits, do they go to jail?

Any company, traded or not, will want to maximise profits to ensure continuity, that´s an economic law making a legal obligation out of it can backfire, it´s like saying that you have the legal duty to breath. Ridiculous!

So MDG, please point me to someplace where I can read said legal obligation I´m really curious.

M.

The legal situation of a company is that the owners hire the management to run it for the owners' benefit.

There are various remedies under UK company law if the owners feel the managers are doing a bad job -- for example, the shareholders of a PLC can vote the board out of office at the annual general meeting.

Only in extreme cases would criminal law be involved, for example if there was fraud or embezzlement.

I think a lot of the grievances (spelling?) are due to the higher prices, everyone knows you gotta raise prices at some point but the way GW are doing it this time around is beyond what most people would take as a joke.

I like most people have enough income to play GW and continue to buy etc. Im not going to though, I didnt think id ever have a limit for my hobby but with these prices its gone for me, any love of the hobby has been washed away. GW stopped caring years ago.

Wil they miss the money id have spent in store, damn right they will, id drop between £500 to however much because i got a lot of stuff and was happy with it. Now though GW have decreased numbers in a box and yet charge almost double. Ie 20 guardsmen for £18, now come june you get 10 of the same, no extras, no different special weapons or heavies for £15.

I was looking forward to the guard codex as i really wanted to get them, now well im just not bothering as its not worth it. Loads of people i used to game with have moved onto other companies and i will be doing the same. If GW go out of business, its no ones fault bar there own. Id like them to stay in business and see sense that there driving people away.

Back to an earlier point about spending £500+ New starters come in and lay down a lot of money to begin with, but they may not last and they wont come in store and spend £500+ every month. Im not saying i did, but i get through painting mini`s quick, so a new force would be bought, built and painted straight away, then id get another one or id add a tonne to what force i had. My Black Legion are well in excess of 30,000pts at last count and that was 8 months ago or some such.

Now well i have no use for it, yeah i could keep it in the hope GW pull there fingers out but they wont, they never have done. So me and my money that would have been going direct to them are now going elsewhere

Every time the prices go up (which they do fairly regularly) there is a storm of complaint on boards like Dakka.

It never does any good.

If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

Their business decisions don't make much sense:
Not lowering GW canada prices to meet US prices only screwed over Canadian stores as everyone went to the stores in the states. All in all making decisions which make no sense considering basic economics.

Thinking about 90% of their customer base would by the plastic table top (yes they actually thought that apparently)

raising prices to make more money will only loose them money in the end by making barriers to start new armies for new players or for old.

Not focusing on lifting sales in armies with "no interest" (dark eldar, sisters) disinterest is due to no current rules and/or new models. If a DA codex was released and new models were made their would be a ton of interest.

having staff who abuse their power to make the armies they play better than others (Gav thorpe)

lack of rules editing and intelligent Q and A support.

Kilkrazy wrote:Every time the prices go up (which they do fairly regularly) there is a storm of complaint on boards like Dakka.

It never does any good.

If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

Looking at GW's accounts for the last few years and their continued decline in Turnover (in real terms) and the actual losses they have been making, they are!

However ranting is a natural response when someone who enjoys something has that thing taken away from them by force. It's a simple law of physics, or something!

I would say that every time GW increases their prices there is much ranting on the tubes, more hobbyists quit and go and do other things. That's what I believe the evidence points to anyhow. Of course GW choose to ignore this evidence of the reaction to price rises and still persist in them... but hey, everyone knows GW's directors are greedy morons!

Trying to stop internet ranting every time the price goes up is like trying to stop the tide from coming in.

In any case, this years price rises are the largest seen for some time. LotR infantry boxes up by 33% from £15 to £20, their cavalry up by 67% from £12 to £20! In a deflationary recession that's just taking the pee almost on the scale of an MP's expense account! In the face of such a reaming I believe some nerd rage is entirely justifiable!

Well, I was going to be building a fantasy army in 2010...

Wait, I still am!
http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/

Whilst getting replacements for certain 40k models is an issue, fantasy ranges out there are a solid rival for gw's now insanely priced minis

Just as an aside, I just bought 6 AT-43 kollosus and 2 kossaks which i'll be converting into killa kans and dreads for my Ork army from the Warstore, £40 instead of £140...

Ya-Boo Sucks to you GW!

Kilkrazy wrote:If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

I think it's really sad that you think that's a valid suggestion, or that you think people haven't been. It's about one step up from "If you hate it, stop playing!".

The only problem I have with proxying non-GW models in GW games is the thought "what's the point"?

You may as well go the whole hog if you are playing in a non-GW-official environment and play a non-GW game!

That way you don't have to play the crappy unbalanced rules either!

Kilkrazy wrote:The legal situation of a company is that the owners hire the management to run it for the owners' benefit.

There are various remedies under UK company law if the owners feel the managers are doing a bad job -- for example, the shareholders of a PLC can vote the board out of office at the annual general meeting.

Only in extreme cases would criminal law be involved, for example if there was fraud or embezzlement.

Your answer makes more sense than MDG´s. There is a big difference between having to look for the owner´s benefit than having to maximise profits. The former is not always best served by basing your management in a short term profit increase and devil take the hindmost that some companies seem to like.

Osbad: You might like to play with your friends that have official miniatures with the miniatures that you like using a common set of rules. Not liking GW´s prices doesn´t that they don´t make nice minis or that they have a cool background.

M.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

I think it's really sad that you think that's a valid suggestion, or that you think people haven't been. It's about one step up from "If you hate it, stop playing!".

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Well, I was going to be building a fantasy army in 2010...

Wait, I still am!
http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/

Whilst getting replacements for certain 40k models is an issue, fantasy ranges out there are a solid rival for gw's now insanely priced minis

Just as an aside, I just bought 6 AT-43 kollosus and 2 kossaks which i'll be converting into killa kans and dreads for my Ork army from the Warstore, £40 instead of £140...

Ya-Boo Sucks to you GW!

Miguelsan wrote:Osbad: You might like to play with your friends that have official miniatures with the miniatures that you like using a common set of rules. Not liking GW´s prices doesn´t that they don´t make nice minis or that they have a cool background.

Agreed. I'm just a grumpy old fart. Once you've bitten the poison apple though its hard to go back...

Looking at the Oz tournament experience (which I only know through having listened to the odd podcast), it seems that there GW stopped supporting the tournament scene, but the fans kept it going and developed it. The official rules set a common denominator around which it is possible to construct a plausible competition environment. Without the big GW logo it would be hard to find something else of common acceptance. Which is fine if that's your bag.

I was speaking from my personal experience though, which was that once we'd taken the mental step of moving away from buying new GW figures, we sort of hit against the notion of expanding/developing our existing GW games armies, or branching off from those games and trying new stuff. Being the age and disposition most of us were, trying out stuff that GW doesn't do (or doesn't do in a way that suits us) was the next logical step.

Its not that we have a non-GW religion. Its just in the decision "I want to indulge in X amount of fun, and I have £Y to spend", companies other than GW tend to deliver more X for less Y. Or so we've found. If GW improved their offering and reduced their prices we'd no doubt be back. As things stand, our hobby budget goes overwhelmingly elsewhere, apart from the occasional second-hand model.

I used to be like that. I wanted to play with my Warzone Samurai using the old Warzone rules but everybody else was having a riot using 40K so I decided to buy the few Eldar minis that I like, Falcons, WS, Scorpions and proxy the rest.

I know that some people will refuse to play with me because it´s not GW but I´m not loosing any sleep over it.

M.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/239729.page

Golga wrote:And as for me well Ill be the only one with some of the cool new models that they wil be releasing for -army name here-

Pfft - The "I got something you don't!" mentality is so 4th grade.

meangreenstompa wrote:Just as an aside, I just bought 6 AT-43 kollosus and 2 kossaks which i'll be converting into killa kans and dreads for my Ork army from the Warstore, £40 instead of £140...

They do make nice Kans, don't they? I'm glad I got some before they sold out earlier.

Got some information today about the price rise. Space marine tactical squad £25 a box

Is that £2.50 per plastic figure?

bloody nora... thast worse than i had expected ! £25 !i could buy a leman russ for that or i should say could have.
I was hoping it wouldnt have been this bad, if thats a true value then sorry but my pruichases are going to be so few and far between my army will take decades to increase in size, unless i start using german tanks for my DKOK

Dead Memories wrote:Got some information today about the price rise. Space marine tactical squad £25 a box

Pfffft! Quit winding us up, they won't be that much.

Not winding you up. This is genuine. The guy that told me this used to be GW area manager for where i live before he was sacked by GW cos he wasnt happy with what they were doing as a company. He is friends with one of the top model designers, name escapes me but the guy made the new mounted chaos lord, and he is still mates with some of the staff at the local gw and those were the prices mentioned from the staff and the model designer

The thing that confuses me about GW is their treatment of the FLGS.

They make rules for online retailers about using shopping carts. The excuse here is that they don't want your FLGS to have to compete with online retailers. Then they make some models collector's/special order, ensuring that we can't buy these at our FLGS.

The price increase, to me, is another way of GW sticking it to the FLGS.

Here is how I see it:
GW raises prices.
Fewer models are sold.
Profit margin per model doesn't change for the FLGS.
FLGS makes less money, in an economy that isn't favorable to hobbies anyway.