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Death Gear wrote:sorry, my grammar it not that good

No worries - you're just a fine testament to the American public education system.

Or if you don´t have the skills to make your own minis or copy GWs ones, you can always go and buy cheaper count as. Right now you can buy 80 plastic OOP figures from the old Warzone line for 20€ that can be used as IG. Hasslefree has their space dwarf line, Perry Brothers sells colonial troops that can be kit bashed as Pretorians, Urban War miniatures, Pig Iron (nice heads)... do I need to continue?

There was a time where playing 40K was about having fun with little miniatures, even GW encouraged that, now it seems to be, according to some posters in this thread, that you either buy GW like a a nice drone or quit the game. I pity you for being so inflexible, life must be hard for you.

Me?, I play with GWs rules but used any miniature that catches my eye, so I´m using GWs Falcons along with Infinity Mekas for my Eldar and I don´t plan to stop mixing miniatures even if I hurt someone´s definition of THE HOBBY.

M.

Railguns wrote:It's almost as if he wrote that with the direct purpose of trolling warpcrafter.

That's giving him too much credit.

Railguns wrote:Short sighted, thoughtless people hate GW. People who think are angry with our end of an abusive relationship.

I really disagree to what i highlighted . Here is why:

Everyone have a limit and breaking point to what price they can tolerate GW to raise to. GW in june will raise their price to as we seen so far
20%+ , in other words as if your discount stores (normally 20% off ) isnt there.

Now , just because your limit isnt reached yet , doesnt mean others are fine with it.

So the question is , what do you think will happen to the hobby if GW pushed it so far that everyone's
limit is reached at the same time?

I think the answer to the above question is the major concern to the "hate"

For the people with 1 army its not a big deal . To some like polonius , hbmc, lord castellan , or me , thats something agitating to think about.

Still think its short sighted?

I don't know. At this point, its like hating fire for being hot or gravity for making warhams players bad at sports(joke, obviously). It's what we expect them to do.

Fire is hot? That BASTARD!

warpcrafter wrote:Please don't close this thread, I enjoy seeing all the Smarty McKnowitalls trotting out their best "Oh you're just stupid children either buy from GW or don't" rants.

Groovy, I have one for you

re: prices - Its a luxury hobby guys, if you don't like it no one is forcing you to play. I find its priced comparably to my other hobbies (video games for example) and that ok to me. Yes prices have gone up but I'm not gonna be an old man who grouses about it (did you know I used to get Atari 2600 games brand new for $20 or less?). The way I see it, it is a solidly middle class hobby and anyone who's not a poor college student is likely to be able to afford to play it just fine, sure you might not be able to buy all the new releases you want right when they come out but you ought to be able to cough up the $50 to a $100 a month for new toys when you feel like it.

I particularly find folks griping about kids who get their mom's to buy them stuff pretty funny, if only because it sounds so much like the complaining of kids/teenagers (of any age really) who've been cut off the parental teat but haven't gotten themselves a real job yet

As to complaining that the markup is ~70%, that hardly unusual as a total markup for retail goods. Any thing you're getting from anyone other the GW direct they only make about 20% on but they can hardly go around undercutting their own distributors/retailers.


re: GW customer service/business model - I will concur that GW's anti-internet policy confuses the beejeezus outta me, particularly in the US where they don;t even like folks to use the internet to sell their stuff, what manufacturer stops people from selling their goods?!? I will also agree that they could serve their customer base better, but doing so would require a complete remodel of the plan that has served them for the past decade or so and thats never simple for any business.

Jack

I have heard plenty of stories where gamers go to GW sanctioned tournies and are turned away because they were using models that were not from the GW line. Sometimes proxies are not an option

One little light of hope! About a year or 2 ago, the Denverittes united (Denver, CO, USA) and the GW Denver shut down!!! It said the sales were so poor they were closing the store, apparently there is not enough business. Meanwhile the 4 FLGS around my area are still going strong... I love it.

I am currently attending school to become a technical writer. Why do I hate Games Workshop? Because of the stupid rule arguements that people get into because the writers are not writing creatively or clearly in the codexes or the rulebook, allowing multiple interpretations of a rule. If it really takes 80ish pages of core rules and another book of supplimental rules (what, maybe 40 pages or more) to play this game, it better be clear as carribean ocean water.

DO YOU HEAR ME GAMES WORKSHOP, THE LARGE MAJORITY OF YOU ARE CRAPPY WRITERS!!!!
oh wait.... no one is listening.

Death Gear wrote:if your so pissed off about there price
do what I do buy one box of what you like
and make copes of it you are stile paying for it

No.

Intellectual property rights mean that when you buy a product you buy that product, NOT the right to copy it.

What you are doing is illegal.

Oooooh Death Gear, Kyoto's gonna tell on you.
Sorry, I'll stop now. I've been awake for too long and have become snippy.

As a new wargamer, long term RPGer, I have a different view on this.

1. The price increase is weird since we're in a recession and it alienates new players.
2. Not having official GW forums prevents feedback from gamers to improve products, books, etc.
3. Several RPGs that I consider good died due to lac of support aka FAQs, new expansions, etc or the system suffered too many expansions. GW should focus more on the expansions, models, Codices, FAQs, etc instead of stores. Let other companies sell online. Let them sell specialist games.

If this keeps up, 40k maybe history. They should look at PP who can get fans excited, increase prices, and have games that are releasing new models for each faction monthly.

Just my views.

I mean, we could certainly all be uncomplaining manly men I suppose, with our mighty and hairy chests,

Hahaha, that was awesome! I laughed my ass off at that one!

Anyway, the hobby is pricey, sure. I hate forking over large sums of money for models too, but no one has a gun to my head. I choose to do it because it is worth it to me, therefor I accept that price of something that brings me a lot of enjoyment in life.

Most fun hobbies are expensive: golf, tennis, scuba diving, surfing, fishing, cycling, comic books, etc. It just isn't cheap. You want a cheap hobby, take up rock collecting.

Something is worth what you are willing to pay for it. If you are unwilling to pay for the product, then don't. But if you keep buying it, GW will keep selling it. They are legally obligated to seek to turn a profit for their shareholders. They are simply doing what a corporation must do. People who pine for the "good old days" when GW was run by gamers are missing the fact that the hobby is what it is today BECAUSE GW incorporated. Without them growing aggressively, most of you would not be here on Dakka bitching about their prices right now. The game, the hobby and the industry is where it is because of what GW has done. You have to take the good with the bad.

Comparing them to a tobacco company is asanine, to whoever made that brilliant remark. They have nothing in common. Might as well say their CEO is like Hitler while you are at it.

Crying about it but still handing over your dough is stupid and pointless. Crying about it when you don't play it is even more pointless. Go find something better to do with yourself.

If you don't like the prices, do something proactive about it instead of throwing a temper tantrum which does nothing but drag down other people's enjoyment in the hobby. I want a Ferrari and think they are overpriced, but do you think anyone gives a flying feth? No, if you want a luxury good you have to be willing to pay for it. That is all there is to it.

Reecius wrote:If you don't like the prices, do something proactive about it instead of throwing a temper tantrum which does nothing but drag down other people's enjoyment in the hobby.

Umm... you been payin' any attention at all Reecius? We do do just that. We buy less, or buy from alternate sources or even take up better games. But for some reason you think that we shouldn't be annoyed at or don't have the right to complain about GW's business practices, their pricing "strategy" (if you can call it that), their rule support (or lack thereof) and blase attitude to long-term customers.

Can't wait until the anti-GW propaganda independent film comes out : Thank You for Playing GW Games

Starring Will Smith as the pro-GW lobbyist.

"You think you get kids hooked with your tobacco and your guns? I get them to sniff
paint, roll dice, post vitriol on the Internet, and give up on personal hygiene. The
GW hobby takes over their lives more completely than alcohol, nicotone, and hormones."

I'd love to see some of the people in this thread as therapists or couple's counselors, or even a friend:
Person A: "Sometimes my wife really annoys me when she spends tons of money on shoes but yells at me about my wargaming hobby."
Person B: Either divorce her or shut up about it.

Yes, some of the tired complaints about GW get old, but they're also far less common than they were even a few years ago. We're jaded now, world wise. We've seen prices hiked, armies eliminated, rules mangled, and customer support slashed. Yet sometimes we vent, we complain, and yes, we go on and on about our grievances.

Now, that's all fine, and sure some people are mildly annoyed because people are kvetching about GW again, until somebody decides that we all need a good talking to about complaining. Now, instead of a group of people idly venting about a third party, there is a demarcation, a them vs. us, a sense of being called out. That annoys people, puts them on the defensive. It is, more often then not, the first step to a flame war. In the end, calling people out on the pettiness of their gripes will lead to more pointless posts than the gripes did in the first place, except nastier and more likely to lock a thread.

In short: yelling at people to stop complaining isn't any different from chastising them about anything else: it's resented and counterproductive and actually quite disrespectful, and really shouldn't be done.

Reecius wrote:

I mean, we could certainly all be uncomplaining manly men I suppose, with our mighty and hairy chests,

Hahaha, that was awesome! I laughed my ass off at that one!

Anyway, the hobby is pricey, sure. I hate forking over large sums of money for models too, but no one has a gun to my head. I choose to do it because it is worth it to me, therefor I accept that price of something that brings me a lot of enjoyment in life.

Most fun hobbies are expensive: golf, tennis, scuba diving, surfing, fishing, cycling, comic books, etc. It just isn't cheap. You want a cheap hobby, take up rock collecting.

Something is worth what you are willing to pay for it. If you are unwilling to pay for the product, then don't. But if you keep buying it, GW will keep selling it. They are legally obligated to seek to turn a profit for their shareholders. They are simply doing what a corporation must do. People who pine for the "good old days" when GW was run by gamers are missing the fact that the hobby is what it is today BECAUSE GW incorporated. Without them growing aggressively, most of you would not be here on Dakka bitching about their prices right now. The game, the hobby and the industry is where it is because of what GW has done. You have to take the good with the bad.

Comparing them to a tobacco company is asanine, to whoever made that brilliant remark. They have nothing in common. Might as well say their CEO is like Hitler while you are at it.

Crying about it but still handing over your dough is stupid and pointless. Crying about it when you don't play it is even more pointless. Go find something better to do with yourself.

If you don't like the prices, do something proactive about it instead of throwing a temper tantrum which does nothing but drag down other people's enjoyment in the hobby. I want a Ferrari and think they are overpriced, but do you think anyone gives a flying feth? No, if you want a luxury good you have to be willing to pay for it. That is all there is to it.

Again, that's not all there is to it. Althought the price hike during a recession certainly feels like a good kick to the nuts it's certainly not the only issue. No one here thinks Games Workshop is a charity. No expects them to sell this stuff at cost. But, at this moment, they are making a healthy profit. And so, in a situation where people have less money, they're raising the prices to make an even healthier profit, hoping that the hardcore fans are gonna keep buying from them. But we aren't. Some simply can't afford the hobby anymore and give up. Some refuse to spend that kinda money. A lot of us are going to other sources, and so less of our money reaches Games Workshops hands.

And well know there answer will be to raise them again. And again. And again. Each time reducing the number of people who can afford or will pay there prices and limiting there customer base to the dedicated fans who, they themselves, don't bother targeting.

But let's ignore the price hike, shall we? You obviously feel they're justified and I, and others, do not. Fair enough. The price hike is not the only issue here, however. Can you please justify the loss of customer feedback and support? How, exactly, is Games Workshop loosing out by having a forum where they can listen to criticism and suggestions, or praise, for there product? How does it hurt them to update there FAQs frequently when new problems come to light? Heck, how much of there profit will it cost them to do a more thourough play testing, to make sure an army is competative without being over powered? I know, they don't make the rules for torunaments or to be balanced...but maybe they should try it a little. Is it going to hurt there sales that an army is actually equal to others? Sure, the tourney players who obsess over winning won't buy the newest broken force...but they might buy armies they like.

Money isn't always the issue, although it certainly hurts. But essentially being told, 'we don't give a crap, just give us your damned wallet' doesn't really help them much.

To add my two cents (American forum, American currency )

I tend to agree with Reecius. Complaining on a public forum doesn't do anythig to change a company like GW. We, as consumers, have a choice....sure, by all means talk about the choice you personnally have chosen and why, but just complaining and then handing over your cash to that same company is borderline insane, and hints at a type of addiction.

However, I see the fault for this "pointless complainng" taking root in the thread because of the "question" posed by the OP.

"Why do you hate GW?"....if the question is posed as it was, then you can't attack the people for simply answering that question.

Now, had the OP posed the question:

" Do we think that GW current business model is going to successful for them? or well recieved by the gaming community?"

We may all have been able to have amuch more fruitful and meaningful conversation.

I've seen the price discussion/argument about 300 times before on Dakka.

The true answer is always the same. GW increase the prices because players keep buying, so their profits increase.

If and when the time comes that GW price themselves out of the market, their profits will drop, and they will have to freeze the prices or even reduce them.

GW have been in business for about 30 years, and they have been in the exclusive Warhammer business for about 15 years, and they have grown their company to the biggest pure tabletop figure wargame company in the world by a large factor. They are doing something right in business terms.

GW's secret is that a lot of their sales are made to newbies who often don't even know that there are alternatives to GW and don't know or care that the prices were 10% lower last year.

Achieving success at being a business doesn't mean they can't offer actual support. It's one thing to have a shrewd business model that's worked solidly for 15 years (and it hasn't, we know how their stock price as done in the past, and the LotR 'bubble' affair), but should being successful instantly = lousy support for long-time customers?

Reecius wrote:For crying out loud, if you can't afford the game (and if you can't afford 1 army and the rulebooks, then you are one indigent SOB) and don't like the rules, don't play it.

But if you just want to cry about it like a little sissy then do it in private.

The hobby is a luxury, you decide if it is worth the money or not. No one forces you to buy the stuff.

So stop crying about it. You want the stuff, then be prepared to pony up the dough to stay involved.

Don't like it? Then sell your gak on Ebay and move on.

End. Of. Story.

Let me assure you , the complaints have NOTHING to do with whether we can afford the armies or not.

Death Gear wrote:if your so pissed off about there price
do what I do buy one box of what you like
and make copes of it you are stile paying for it

Can you post your mailing address? I'm sure GW Legal would love to send you a nasty letter.

Do not promote illegal copying of intellectual property on Dakka. This is theft, pure and simple, and we don't tolerate it. Further violations will result in temporary suspensions.

Much better to wait six months until 'the kids' have got bored of Imperial Guard and pick up a bargain then.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:Once upon a time, there were a bunch of gamers/modelers/painters/hobbyists like us. They really like playing role playing and wargames so they made a magazine about it. In that magazine, they wrote about all of their favorite games, and note that they we not employed by any games company. They we "3rd party" or un-affiliated, and they views were considered objective and un biased.

During this time of independant magazine publication (it was called White Dwarf) they started to write their own rules and make their own figures. At first, the rules were just published in the magazine. But as the popularity of the magazine and their own house written rules grew, they needed to start a company specifically to publish their own brand of games. Thus Games Workshop was created.

A lot of people think that, but it's not true. White Dwarf was always published by Games Workship, from Issue #1. Games Workshop, at the time, was one of the major importers and retailers (by mail order, mostly; their only real competitor at the time was the excellent Games of Liverpool) of tabletop roleplaying games, and started WD to *promote its business*. That's what White Dwarf was for, and has always been for; if you look at the early issues (say, before issue #60 or #70 or so), there's at least 1 full-page GW ad in each one, for the then-latest mail-order games releases (mostly Dungeons & Dragons, but also RuneQuest, Traveller, and a few others). Generally, the reviews pages were full of games you could buy from Games Workshop, and the content of the articles was also designed to promote the games you could buy from Games Workshop.

The "ooh it was all hippy elves making their own rules in those days" idea is just typical nostalgia, & doesn't address the realities of White Dwarf's then business model.

(I did hear one rumour, from a reliable source in the gaming industry, that suggested GW only started producing their own RPGs and wargames because TSR, who then published D&D, decided they didn't want to sell through GW any more, once TSR UK and Imagine Magazine were around to promote THEIR hobby.)

Moving on... personally, I love the models, and the fluff, and enjoy the games as action-packed, fun, reasonably well-balanced wargames. I buy most of my GW stuff from eBay or online discounters. I'd LOVE to see them employ professional game writers & designers to write and design their games, because though "promoting from within" is laudable, you can't turn a GW shop-worker into a game designer just by changing his job title. I don't have a beef with GW as a whole; they still make the greatest toy soldiers in the world, and probably always will do. It'd be nice if they cared as much about producing great rules as they do about producing great toy soldiers, but (a) they don't, (b) they never have done, and (c) their business model doesn't appear to require them to do so.

Of course everyone has the right to complain, but as Delephont pointed out, complaining while handing over money is ridiculous.

I am not intending to be GW's stalwart defender or anything, just trying to be realistic. Could the game be better? Yes, it sure could. It could always improve as any game could improve. But, it HAS been improving. From the beginning to now, the game is radically better. I too wish they would do open play testing to work out kinks before product hit the market, but again, whining about it on the net changes nothing. Write JJ an email stating your point of view. That would be VASTLY more effective than jabbering aimlessly on the net about something you do not like. Will it make an immediate impact? Who knows, but probably not. Enough people do it and GW may listen. At any rate, that would be actually trying to affect a change as opposed to just spewing vitriol pointlessly.

Like Kilkrazy said, they are doing something right. They have grown and expanded the hobby while other "friendlier" companies have come and gone. Business is not a nice guy's game. It is a competitive environment in which companies compete over a limited resource: your money. Being nice and friendly aren't qualities that help you to excel.

My only point is that complaining about something may feel good for a few seconds, but it is ultimately pointless. If you want to see a change occur, you must do something about it. Otherwise, all you do is pollute the net with negativity that brings other people down.

And HBMC, I am the same way, I buy all my stuff at 32% off with no sales tax. That to me is fair. If I play at a game store, I make sure to purchase things regularly from the store to support the community, but my big purchases are all at big discounts. But, while it is still not cheap, I do not complain about it because it is my choice.

I buy forgeworld models too, which are incredibly expensive, but again, I feel that it is worth it.

I wrote a letter to JJ, and he replied. He gave the usua; GW is he best lalala Rubbish in my opinion. Then what he said in his reply surprised me. If your leaving the GW side of the hobby now would be a good time to do so, he also said not to leave the whole wargaming hobby as other companies are there and a lot of them are offering value for money and a overall better playing experiance. So from JJ saying if you leave the GW "hobby" then do so now but always remember there are always other companies who are producing new stuff all the time

H.B.M.C. wrote:Achieving success at being a business doesn't mean they can't offer actual support. It's one thing to have a shrewd business model that's worked solidly for 15 years (and it hasn't, we know how their stock price as done in the past, and the LotR 'bubble' affair), but should being successful instantly = lousy support for long-time customers?

I totally agree, that's why in my earlier post in this thread I said I was sad about GW because they could easily do much better than they do, but can't be bothered to.

I would also point out that although this demographic is grossly underrepresented on this forum, there are a whole lot of people who *do* stop complaining as a result of they no longer buy GW games/models.

Every time I hear 'GW is a miniatures company, not a game company' I point at the giant white elephant sitting in the corner: GW can only sell miniatures because their game creates the demand for them.

How many miniatures companies have existed in the last 10 years? Probably a dozen or more, I really don't know, I'm going off what I've seen displayed in comic book shops. It always seems that one premieres, a few shelving cycles go by, and then they're on the clearance rack because nobody really cares about stand-alone pewter figurines.

The only reason, and I do mean only reason, that GW has the staying power it does is because of its success at creating enticing background material that people can become enmeshed in through the game. GW's business model is not 'create highly technical miniatures, highlight the detailing and mold quality, and then sell miniatures', it's 'put stores in high traffic areas, pay staff to demo the game, get new hobbyists hooked on the game, and then sell them miniatures'.

I think for every person I know that plays 40k, I know at least one more that quit because the rules/codex sucks or they don't want to wait 4 years for their army to get updated. These people no longer buy models, and the new players don't really buy models because the first group sells them their army. This is completely aside from people who quit because they no longer have time to play.

GW is not a well run company. It's folly to think that they are. You can't shove your head in the sand and neglect the demand model that keeps your main revenue stream flowing. They'll prosecute anyone who duplicates their models because it's in violation of their IP, while at the same time leaving the embodiment of their intellectual property to rot on the vine. Meanwhile they hike their prices far above comparable-quality miniatures companies in an effort to generate earnings, but they simply reduce the quantity demanded. Anyone who's taken a first-level economics class knows this, and the long term result is going to be further shrink of the player pool.

Miguelsan wrote:

Swordguy wrote:No, they aren't. I worked a year at Iron Wind Metals (BattleTech, Shadowrun, WarGods of Aegyptus, Ral Partha) - I know how much it costs to produce a metal model, cast it, pack it, and ship it. GW's costs are WAY out of line for character models. Their price increases in general have mainly been naked money grabs, being far, FAR above even the 3%-ish yearly inflation we've been seeing. The price per model for plastic IG, for example, is getting to the $4 US region now. Reaper's doing that with metal. Catalyst Game Labs managed to stuff 24 plastic Mechs into a $40 boxed set along with full-color rulebooks, cardstock charts, maps, and so for. Up until the price of tin tripled a few years ago, IWM was doing metal minis for $5 a model. What's the average PPM in the GW line right now? IIRC, it's somewhere in the $12-13 region.

Moreover, GW corporate polices have been openly admitted to not care about long-term gamers and aimed more toward the short-term tween buyer with a huge disposable income. Yes, it makes money. No, it's neither friendly to the players nor a good way to build a stable customer base.

Yes, I know it's a troll thread. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

As somebody will point later on, probably MDG, Iron Wind is not a big company, it doesn´t have brick&mortar stores to "promote" the hobby nor is it a public traded one that apparently HAS A LEGAL OBLIGATION (never heard about this before but UK is a funny place) to maximize profit for shareholders plus a board that want money too, and the personal secretary for the CEO, and the legal dept, and the bean counters, and the communication dept (MIA since 2000)...

So a 4€ plastic guardsman barely covers the costs, GW´s overheads are not enough so you better send a donation now before they go belly up.

M.

PS: Yep, half this post is sarcasm that doesn´t read to well on the net but when I was in college I learnt the going big was supposed to improve your efficiency, scale economies and such, but as usual GW added all the inefficiencies along the way.

Indeedy. Also, the companies people mention when comparing prices don't have the 330+ stores that GW do. Any idea how much it costs to keep those running? All paid for by the models as well.

Prices are indeed high, and sometimes out of peoples pocket range, but that does not necessarily cause them to be unjustified. Go to the GW home page, click on Investor Relations and have a good old shufty. See what their true profit margin is (post tax) and then tell us they are rolling in it thanks to stupidly high prices. I can pretty much guarantee you they are not.

Now, if you have a problem with the rules etc, then fairly dos. Each to their own. But such things that are quantifiable really should be researched before complaints are raised.

Having a sloppy infrastructure (330+ exclusively GW stores' upkeep) does not justify high prices.

Could you go to your boss, assert that you are so underpaid that you can't afford to buy food (when you make 50% more than comparable employees), and base this assertion on your inability to pay for a $200 tab at the 5 star restaurant you eat at every night?

If you have unreasonably high operating costs, you don't jack your prices out of the realm of your competitive market, you cut your high operating costs. Increasing prices causes a shift downwards in the quantity demanded on the SnD curve. It's simple economics. If you then couple that with business policy that reduces demand, like the cancellation of GTs, and the unwillingness to update their gaming system, then all you've managed to do is shrink your market share.

Dude, I totally fail to follow your example there.

What you are saying is that GW should scrap was has been to the present day, a successful business model, just to give you cheaper models?

Do they have unreasonably high operating costs? That is purely a matter of opinion. My view is that the Stores are a an expensive necessity that got them where they are, and keeps them where they are. So not even going to bother arguing the toss on that one, as we could do so until blue in the face and still not convince each other.

My point originally was purely to illustrate that a lot of information about GW is freely and readily available, and that it depresses me just how many people cannot be arsed to even try to support their arguements, and generally scream 'Fanboi' whenever someone corrects them. And reading this, I think I should point out that I am not accusing you of this of yourself! Saves later confusion!