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I think that a lot of the problem is that GW's business model, for years, relied on those 330 stores -- but it's completely failed to evolve to the internet age, which is hurting pretty much ALL specialist retailers. Shifting their model around, evolving, would be a major task -- the inertia involved is tremendous...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Dude, I totally fail to follow your example there.

What you are saying is that GW should scrap was has been to the present day, a successful business model, just to give you cheaper models?

That's not at all what my thesis pointed at.

GW's business model doesn't work now. That is what I actually said. If you have a business model that doesn't work, then jacking your prices upward doesn't keep you from going out of business any more quickly.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Do they have unreasonably high operating costs? That is purely a matter of opinion.

Over the last couple of years GW have been attempting to reduce their operating costs and cutting backs in several areas so that 'opinion' would also be the 'opinion' of the GW management.

Well, who knows Gamesworkshop may be actually finding it hardin these times of economic rubbish-ness. i may still pay for the odd item like a tank, for my Dkok but it will be less frequent.

Well we will just have to wait and see what the future beholds really.

Apparently, Hobbies do quite well in times of recession. I guess it's the escapism from the crushing stress of work. And it's typically cheaper to maintain a hobby than a social life when cash is tight, especially social hobbies like ours.

theocd wrote:There are 4 things that annoy me about Games Workshop:
1.) They name things wrong - new IG codex Hellguns are now Hot Shot Lasguns which are totally different things.
2.) They try to pull the wool over our eyes - buy a 20 man box set for £18, buy a 10 man box set for £10, it may aswell be 1 for the price of 2! Also - things like specialist movement trays that you practically have to buy to play the War Of The Ring Expansion. And in fact thats another point - in the beginning there were three games LOTR, 40K and WHFB. Now they are all practically a squad based game with movement, shooting and assault phases. The ony different things are the Skirmish games and they are expensive and haven't been updated. (Not that we want them updated because GW would mess it up)
3.) Continuity errors. Compare the leg sizes of the new Cadian command squad with the old Cadians and the commanders look sodding anorexic.
4.) As Jon mentions, poor build quality of minatures.
EDIT: Number 5 - they never reply to your e-mails or they reply then you post another question and then they ignore you.

I feel better now,

The OC-D

P.S. I am one of these people that get annoyed very easily. Just annoyed, not angry or extremist.

Wow just wow. Learn your facts before you go tromping about with the red flag of revenge. Battle Fleet Gothic, Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Mordheim were all around befor your so very beloved lotr. Also pick up some hobbying skills and make your own damn movement trays. Lazy git. As for there minis I have to sya they have goten alot better over the years, most notably space marines. I remember back in the day youd have to chip and scrape there arms just to get them on if they didnt happen to be just a huge chunk of metal in the first place.

And to the rest of you. Granted im not happy with there price increases or how they abuse there consumers. But you know what. They brought into my world a hobby that I love and have played ever since I was very youngue. Regardless of how crappy the rules are, you cannot denie that it is fun to play the game (Unless your either a) a rules lawyer. Or B) Some one whos just into tourny play.) Its made me friends which I can still call friends to this day. And some very memorable moments.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

The problem is that they are only concerned with profits and the same goes for forge world, 300 bucks for a titan, i dont care how big they are or how detailed, what they and GW do costs no more than making a $10 action figure, plus we put them together and paint them!

I just started playing and yes i did pay money but i searched for the cheapest prices, but how else can i play 40K im not gonna build a whole army from scratch?

But i will say this, im buying whatever else i think im gonna need for my army before the prices go up then its all ebay, rogue trader and here for what i need

Golga wrote:
Wow just wow. Learn your facts before you go tromping about with the red flag of revenge. Battle Fleet Gothic, Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Mordheim were all around befor your so very beloved lotr. Also pick up some hobbying skills and make your own damn movement trays. Lazy git. As for there minis I have to sya they have goten alot better over the years, most notably space marines. I remember back in the day youd have to chip and scrape there arms just to get them on if they didnt happen to be just a huge chunk of metal in the first place.

And to the rest of you. Granted im not happy with there price increases or how they abuse there consumers. But you know what. They brought into my world a hobby that I love and have played ever since I was very youngue. Regardless of how crappy the rules are, you cannot denie that it is fun to play the game (Unless your either a) a rules lawyer. Or B) Some one whos just into tourny play.) Its made me friends which I can still call friends to this day. And some very memorable moments.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

you have put a very good point across, i do liek you thoroughly enjoy playing the game and modelling and painting, and giving me the opertunity to be creative through something else other than drawing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong when a company puts profits as their #1 priority. That's what they're there for: to make money.

The problem is, nothing GW is doing points at a sustainable business plan that will keep them making money. Hiking prices does nothing but send a GW customer to a distributor that will offer a bulk discount.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

What do you do in five more years when you're the only one willing to pay those prices? Mechwarrior and Heroclix were two games that brought a helluvalot of people happiness, and they're basically "gone" now. What then?

sourclams wrote:
If you have unreasonably high operating costs, you don't jack your prices out of the realm of your competitive market, you cut your high operating costs.

Does GW have real competition? I'm not sure they do, no one else in their business operates on their scale, its an intel >AMD or MS>Apple competition, theoretical compareables but not really the same.

I think pricing wise, their priced to compete with other luxury hobbies, and as such are right in the same range.

Jack

I don't have any real hate towards GW, but my love of them has faltered and died over the years. Its just the cost of the minis and how many you need to make an effective army. The crazy cost of the white dwarfs really pushed me over the edge. I've stopped buying anything new for the last 5 months now, and will not purchase more until all my current models are finished. That said, when I do buy more I will not have the brand loyalty I once did. In the future all model companies will be viewed equally when it comes to the spending of my hard earned cash.

I would disagree. Their target demographic is the type of people who frequent comic book stores and dungeons and dragons adventures as well as teenagers with disposable income. That average price level is about $100 initially and maybe $30 or so a month for however long you can keep them "hooked".

GW is never going to compete with "real" luxury hobbies like paintball, airsoft, or golf. There's a quasiprofessional social element there (military, law enforcement, business) that 40k can't even begin to attract. Nobody 'does' 40k professionally, and there's no exercise or activity component. The only thing that keeps them in the running is their background material like the BL novels and IP that they sell to computer games companies.

Also, compare price to value.

Essentially, the more you play, the better the value the models offer. If you took the cost of collecting your latest army, including all the paints, glues etc, and then divided it by the amount you used said army in a year, again, including painting and building time, you can get incredible value out the little plastic men we all play with.

For example. My Savage Orc army now would cost....£75 for the Wyvern conversion, £144 for the infantry, £24 for the Shamans, and...erm...£70 for the Boarboyz. Adding in the Fantasy Rulebook, paints, Orcy book etc, I reckon to get this army onto the field of battle cost me in the region of £400, give or take. Thats quite some price (not helped by the Wyvern conversion needing bits from 3 kits, and being conceived AFTER the demise of bitz!) I can kick out 20 Savage Orcs in.....8 hours of painting, so thats 24 hours right there. Wyvern took me 3 hours to convert, and about 4 to paint, 31 so far, Boarboyz take about an hour each, so thats 41, and the Shamans about the same I reckon, so I'd expect 44 hours painting and modelling time. I can easily do that in 5 weeks. Assuming I wait until it's all painted before I start gaming (I didn't!) that leaves 47 weeks of gaming in a calender year. Now I can get a single game in a week currently due to work commitments. Each 2,000 point game will last, on average, 2.5 hours. So, 2.5 hours multiplied by the 47 weeks left over....117.5 hours of gaming in that year. So, in all, the army as a project and a gaming entity takes up 161.5 hours of my time.

Dividing the cost of the army in it's entirety, by the hours it takes up, gives my hobby an hourly cost of £2.72, again give or take on the fractions.

That to me is pretty damn good value. A pint of my beloved Hobgoblin is £2.90, and takes about half an hour to drink. Cinema locally is £8.50 for a film, lasting around 2 hours. So compared to other activites, GW is a good value for money hobby for me.

Now, of course, your milage may vary depending on the various, erm, variables. I tend to stick with an army for at least a year before moving on, and my gaming time/painting time is pretty much set. You might not bother with the painting which, whilst reducing the cost, does of course reduce the hours spent on the Hobby. You might only get to game once a month at a smaller points value.

But I think you should try the above experiment, and certainly compare it to other activities you indulge in, including if appropriate other game systems. Even if the value you get from your purchases isn't as good as mine, it's still an interesting little diversion.

So, to recap....take the total cost of your project, including for balances sake all the rules and gubbins you need for it, and divide it by the projected amount of time, to get your 'hourly' cost.

sourclams wrote:I would disagree. Their target demographic is the type of people who frequent comic book stores and dungeons and dragons adventures as well as teenagers with disposable income. That average price level is about $100 initially and maybe $30 or so a month for however long you can keep them "hooked".

GW is never going to compete with "real" luxury hobbies like paintball, airsoft, or golf. There's a quasiprofessional social element there (military, law enforcement, business) that 40k can't even begin to attract. Nobody 'does' 40k professionally, and there's no exercise or activity component. The only thing that keeps them in the running is their background material like the BL novels and IP that they sell to computer games companies.

Is someone who has played on a paintball team, with sponsors and everything i can say that it will never reach the same level. Paintball was also much more expensive than this hobby, im talking $1300 a season plus gear and paint. Plus paintball has a huge market! more than many other extreme sports. This hobby however doesnt have the same market penetration (hehe i said penetration...sorry) meaning there are much less people who participate and are active in the hobby, and the cost does hurt it, the same thing goes for paintball but its easier, in my opinion to spend $1200 on a high end gun with moving parts thats sophisticated more so than on plastic sets of things you have to put together and this reason is why the hobby hasnt grown more.

So im not that mad about prices(lets face it paintball and being in college, left me in debt. Beer wasnt cheap) however they are getting out of comtrol, and left unchecked with only increase.

They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

You don't have to like it, just accept that it's not mindless greed.

Though of course we now come round to the are the stores worth it question with regard to overheads etc. But lets not go into that for fear of devolving the thread. Though if anyone does fancy a chinwag about it, feel free to PM me.

GW stole my dog, killed my kid, and ran over my wife.

Or did they run over the dog? Bah, never could tell those two apart...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

You don't have to like it, just accept that it's not mindless greed.

Though of course we now come round to the are the stores worth it question with regard to overheads etc. But lets not go into that for fear of devolving the thread. Though if anyone does fancy a chinwag about it, feel free to PM me.

It depends the one store i went into of theres was when i was in high school and they weren't friendly or helpful, they were dicks and treated people who werent uber geeks about 40k like crap.

That doesnt really help people buy stuff.

and i also agree with another who said they hound you to buy stuff, thats never made me buy anuthing they should just be helpful.

Interesting thread.

I think the real reason people like to complain is that they care about their hobby and feel that GW is mismanaging their business and endangering future enjoyment they might have. I.e. if GW goes out of business, or if they raise prices "too high" that they drive away the people they play with, they won't be able to play.

In my view, GW has a short-term view/strategy and are basically run as an old era business. They run as a push system, basically pushing product onto their customers, not taking customer feedback in product design/development. Their primary focus is on profit maximization, versus customer value. This is why a lot of people feel they are out of touch. Most companies have realized that push systems in business are highly inefficient and result in stifled performance. Most companies nowadays are trying, or have already, moved to a pull system where the customer demand pulls new product through the value chain.

In the last decade, companies that have taken a focus on generating value to the customer versus the traditional profit maximizing view have done remarkably well. By focusing on driving and delivering customer value, profit naturally comes as a consequence (assuming you can run an efficient operation).

**Maximizing profit should not be the tool used to reach the goal of making profits. Maximizing profit should be the goal, where the tool to get you there is to bring customer value.

I can imagine why it might be hard for them to realize this, especially since they've been operating like this for decades. The market is aware of this too, and it's a big reason why GW has been just scraping by, year on year. As they continue on the same path and strategy, their stock has continued a steady decline over the years. For a company that makes 70+% gross margin and is still unable to turn a profit....well...that is just a sad statement about their general business/operating strategy. It also goes to show that just increasing prices will not save your business...in fact, many times you are trading long term (lifetime) profit for short term survival. It's a self-cannibalizing strategy.

As for what they could do to turn things around...I think they are in huge trouble as a business long term. Their one bright point is their licensing IP. If they don't get in some really good change management to re-engineer their entire business model, I could easily see them become a pure IP license company and drop their miniature line, especially giving their current train of thought (max out short term profit).

To disclose, I stopped playing GW product in about 2005, and had only purchase a few orks off of ebay (used) to paint, since then. I just find GW to be an excellent case study of how not to run a modern business. I hope they can turn things around, but on their current course, it's a sinking ship, and has been for many years now.

Acheron, I agree completely. Running GW like Granddad's old drug store is going to see them limp along until eventually their credit rating gets cut and the CEO gets fired for someone more visionary.

Their IP is their only real asset, but they squander it on, excluding a small handful, very average writers and shoddy game design. I can't say it enough, the game is what creates demand for the models. No game, no models, and people stop playing the game when it reaches "the point" where it's no longer fun/easy to play.

It's easy to sell kids $100 worth of misc. crap. But at some point, significant revenue is going to come from retention and continuous collectors. I'm willing to bet that hobby recruitment barely pays for the stores and staff, so if retention shrinks, then where does the rest of the money come from.... ? Right, nowhere.

As an aside, Forgeworld should be an absolute gold mine for a miniatures company, so why does it feel like it's run out of somebody's basement? What other company would you be willing to buy bent, misshapen, and sometimes incomplete product with absolute gak for customer service?

My real problem with the prices getting marked up is that I have a ton of friends who really want into the 40k. They seem really excited about it and are completely into the fluff and everything. They are willing to spend the time assembling models, painting them, and playing the game. What they aren't willing to do is to drop hundred or so dollars on it as an initial investment(And then making them pay more to play bigger games). They are also are tired of using proxies and being limited to my army books, codexes, and rulebooks. We all live real lives and some of us really can't justify spending a ton of money on something that amounts to a plastic tank or plastic men. And it is especially a gigantic hurdle when you consider that $22 is 10 Guardsmen while if you spend that same amount, you get around 200 green soldiers. I just find it hard to defend GW when they raise their prices. Yeah, they make more money from the people who will buy it no matter what, but then they lose customers because they really won't spend ridiculous amounts of money(and it really is ridiculous) just to play. At the end of the day, if I want to play a game with my friends, I'm playing L4D, WoW, TF2, D&D, or WoD. Unfortunately, it is just a natural drawback of table top war games.

GW is competing with video games, which are cheaper and offer more for the price. They raise there prices to keep up profits and this cycle will continue until people dont pay and then they will go out of business.

Look at what video games, L4D is the best example they constantly run sales and cut the price and they have made more money as a result. GW should take a page out of valves book and do the same.

Acheron wrote:Interesting thread.

I think the real reason people like to complain is that they care about their hobby and feel that GW is mismanaging their business and endangering future enjoyment they might have. I.e. if GW goes out of business, or if they raise prices "too high" that they drive away the people they play with, they won't be able to play.

This. Only a moron would look at most of these complaints and think "OMG why does everyone hate GW???!!?!??! LEAVE GW ALONE!!11"

I bitch because, unlike the OP apparently, I actually want GW to stay around for years to come and I honestly don't believe they're going to if they keep up with this failing way of doing business. So like most people I criticize them for their stupid practices. Like raising prices when sales drop because people can't afford the hobby anymore. We've all heard it a hundred times, "I'd play if it wasn't so expensive", and for those of us stupid enough to keep playing it just gets worse and worse.

As an aside, Forgeworld should be an absolute gold mine for a miniatures company, so why does it feel like it's run out of somebody's basement?

Because it practically is.

And to answer your second question, hell no, I wouldn't buy models of that quality from anyone else. And after my last foray into FW where I bought a barracuda, I haven't even really given them the time of day, either. The casting quality was horrible and I honestly couldn't believe I had spent $120 on it. Now granted the main reason I haven't bought from FW is the price, but part of that is because I honestly don't feel I'd be getting my moneys worth anyway.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

There we go again. I don´t know UK´s business law but your statement sounds weird. So any company based in the UK must give dividends by law? How about a company that decides to expand using last year´s profits to offer a higher share value, are they breaking the law? What´s the punishment for the board if they fail to increase profits, do they go to jail?

Any company, traded or not, will want to maximise profits to ensure continuity, that´s an economic law making a legal obligation out of it can backfire, it´s like saying that you have the legal duty to breath. Ridiculous!

So MDG, please point me to someplace where I can read said legal obligation I´m really curious.

M.

And one could also argue that simply raising prices over, and over, and over isn't doing jack all to maximize profits as shown by the fact that they've been barely scraping by for a time now. So really someone should have already gone to jail if that were the case.

I won't say that they should never have to raise prices, everyone raises prices for everything, nothing is as cheap as it used to be. But doing it this often is just ridiculous. Imagine if someone decided a cup of coffee was worth $5-6 one year, and then $10-$12 all of a sudden a few months later, would people just keep gladly paying for it anyway and say "Oh well, them's business" or would they get pissed off?

I personally don't hate GW. I hate their practices. Their customer service is straight ace, I can't complain there. But their distribution network is spotty and inefficient, their relationships with independent retailers is strained and poor, their CEO is bonkers (what sane CEO debt-finances dividends? the only possible reason for that is to double Mr. Kirby's yearly income through his stock holdings) and their actual stores feel like used car lots. I love the 40k and fantasy universes. As much as I complain about the rules, I still play every week. I think their design team and release schedules are mediocre at best, and I think they could do better (first and foremost by ditching Alessio straight away) and they have some serious finance and operations issues.

So no, I don't *hate* GW, I think they have a lot of problems that a handful of sane and competent individuals could fix.

Another thing I don't like is the lack of support.

I don't read the FAQ's anymore, they're just awful.

White Dwarf became a catalog rather than an interesting magazine.

And the rules are currently in limbo for both games (especially WHFB, go play Daemons vs. Empire)

I don't care about prices(I'll order from the Warstore), but damn it GW, give me something interesting to keep me in the hobby!

(PlanetStrike is definitely one of those things)

Kind of on topic.

I was digging through old stuff and found the Armylist pamphlet that came with my 2nd Ed Ravenwing Attack Force. It was a 750pt army in a box. Chappy on bike, 5 bike squad, attack bike, and old metal speeder. All with special RW metal bits. If I remember right, it cost me about $125 in 1996-97(?)

Now I can essentially build these from the Ravenwing Battleforce and it costs me $90. 12 years later.
Buying the same components individually costs about $125.

A squad of 10 metal marines or guard in 94-98 was $30(?). Now it is $35 for the same number of higher technical quality, multi-pose, plastic models.
Material costs are less, but capital costs are more. And there is only a $5 increase over a 12 year span, for essentially the same product?

Granted, we are required to use more models in an army, but that is our choice to play at that level.
I have had great games at 500 and 1000 points, where the costs were probably a battleforce for the models needed.
I think sometimes we need to step back and think about how it used to be with our heads, not our rose-tinted memories.

Another point.
If you are a video-gamer, you are not spending less than a TTGer. You buy a system every 4 years. Say about $100/yr.
Then conservatively buy 5 new games in a year. That adds $300 at current costs.
That is not even adding in online costs, or peripherals you may buy (GH or Rockband).

That is about equal to the cost of a 1500pt GW MEQ army.
maybe an ork horde if you ebay well. Still not a IG army tho, I admit.
Video gaming is in another level altogether, if you have to keep up with the latest, greatest.
Or collecting DVDs, or music (legally), or even putting together a decent library of books.

skrulnik wrote:
Another point.
If you are a video-gamer, you are not spending less than a TTGer. You buy a system every 4 years. Say about $100/yr.
Then conservatively buy 5 new games in a year. That adds $300 at current costs.
That is not even adding in online costs, or peripherals you may buy (GH or Rockband).

You might as well as compare it to Ferrari collectors then
Somethings just arnt meant to be compared the same way.

Hobbies are expensive, no matter what it is. Sadly with GW it just seems more apparent.

Though I remember the days of the not-so-multi-pose plastics being 16$ CDN for 10. Good times

LunaHound wrote:
You might as well as compare it to Ferrari collectors then
Somethings just arnt meant to be compared the same way.

Why is a tabletop game not comparable to a video game system?
Both are entertainment.
Both are in similar niches, tho vgaming has grown much more in recent years.
There is constant turnover of base systems, but the old ones are equally usable.
There is a thriving second hand market for both as well.
If you keep playing, you keep buying.
I do not see a difference.