Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kanluwen wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: It's a case of fething common sense.

GW policy the oposite of common sense.

For people is a HOBBIE not a BUSINESS and only a tool woud let his own hobby be controled by anyone elses agenda.

70% 80% 50% WTF? I buy 1 mini from GW they should kiss the floor I walk... and not "I should buy things I dont want in order to be allowed" in a freaking hobby store.
Sure its their store, they can do what they want, just dont call it common sense.

Except that it IS common sense. Look at any dining establishment. They disallow outside food for the same reason GW disallows competitor's miniatures in their official tournaments and their official stores.
But hey, I guess Wildflour and Buffalo's near me are draconian fascists for not letting me sit down and eat something from Subway inside!

But, FLGSes don't have the same requirements for conversions, etc. However, when they run an "official" GW tournament, with a GW sponsor and photo submissions, etc...they have to adhere to those requirements.

Completely unrelated activities/business one of them is not a hobby but a necessity etc...

As a hobby involving creativity its ridiculous to impose barriers on someone just because you want narrow people choices towards only your product... Lets make something clear I do not hold against them doing what they want on their stores, ok?!

What I find not common sense is the company policy of antagonizing fans just because they dont have 70% or other silly percentage of GW models... dont they sell GS? modeling tools, paints, hobby tools to push your creativity are they not a hobby orientated company? They provide more than miniatures...
If I paint a rackham miniature with GW paints its GW making money with my hobby... If I paint a army with their paints, flock them with GW flock, use GW bases, buy a GW codex to play the game etc etc... Why cant I use other models? Im I less of a customer?
To me it doesnt make sense in any way a company that sells modeling orientated materials telling you that you can only use X percentage of it.

What would make sense to me was if they accepted all kinds of miniatures instore...sold GS and tools to people convert things the way they liked it and play with the minis they liked... By accepting things like they are IRL they not only sell more but also would be more less restritive and castrating towards the people that buys on their stores...
And now comes the argument... hey if a guy doesnt buy anything GW and pops up? Well there are always going to be people like that but the solution is not to label everyone like those poor sports and start witch hunt on miniatures of other companies.
I tell you this a heavy converter spends MUCH more money in store than a guy that only buys and plays... Why the need for GW to tell these converters they should not convert this and that in order to be accepted?

What i do know is that if GW went the route of acepting things they would catter also to the long term Hobbyman... wich we know its not their target.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Oh FFS.

IT WAS ONE STAFFER BEING A KNOBEND.

...

'One knob does not make policy'

Exactly.



C'mon folks - if Grotsnik and myself are seeing eye-to-eye on a subject, then maybe, just maybe, there's a good reason for that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:


C'mon folks - if Grotsnik and myself are seeing eye-to-eye on a subject, then maybe, just maybe, there's a good reason for that.

You're both clinically insane and off your meds?

I did not read every post on this thread but, I can give an example close to what the OP had experienced. At the time I was pretty new to the hobbie & saw a LGS was having a painting contest. I was disqualified when it was found out that I didn't use GW paints. To be a sore winner or loser depending how you look at it, I was still pi$$ed off. It was only a 4th or 5th place. I also had other problems (I didn't fit in the clique of the regulars) with that place in the past, so I was glad a few years later it went out of buisness.

Kilkrazy wrote:Two reasons why it may not be in GW's interests to allow conversions with alternative heads.

1. Money spent on spare heads isn't being spent on more GW models.
2. The use of cool alternatives to GW models gives an obviously bad example to other players. The next thing you know it's all Zulus instead of Kroot and Gundams instead of Crisis Suits.

The counter-argument is that as long as people spend some of their money on GW stuff, the longer users stay in wargaming and the keener they are, it doesn't matter if they buy some competitors' stuff because they will keep on buying GW stuff too. Under this doctrine GW should ignore minor examples of alternatives providing they keep users playing and spending and focussed on GW products.

This is the "make the pie higher" argument.

Anyway I don't know whether GW have any official policy on the above points.

The key thing to remember is that the GW shop isn't your club full of your friends wanting for you all to have a nice time playing wargames. It's a business trying to get your money, and it only has GW goods to sell.

The staff behave according to a mixture of what Head Office tells them to do, what the local manager tells them to do, and what they individually think they should do.

Sometimes the guy at the sharp end is a knob.

*Nod nod , KK is wise as always.

To add to the number, it isnt just "1" red shirt that said that , from my own experience there has been atleast 2 red shirts at different GW that also says similar things about not allowing .

@ Kalown , its not that we lack this "common sense" its we hate spending money from been told whats "ok to use" and later been told its NOT ok .
Then its not so simple anymore is it.

@Navarro.


Then boycott GW. Have fun. Because if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, West Wind, etc all had a large chain of stores that sold ONLY their product--there is no way in hell they would be selling, encouraging, or promoting anyone else's products.

@ Luna

It's common sense, in that as MDG and I have said repeatedly in this very thread:
They are not telling you that you CANNOT use them, period.
They are telling you that you CANNOT use them in their store. And that's not even their POLICY.

But hey, let's not let logic and common sense get into this. Burn GW down! Their tyrannical fascism has to come to an end!

Rabble rabble rabble rabble!

Kanluwen wrote:@Navarro.


Then boycott GW. Have fun. Because if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, West Wind, etc all had a large chain of stores that sold ONLY their product--there is no way in hell they would be selling, encouraging, or promoting anyone else's products.

@ Luna

It's common sense, in that as MDG and I have said repeatedly in this very thread:
They are not telling you that you CANNOT use them, period.
They are telling you that you CANNOT use them in their store. And that's not even their POLICY.

But hey, let's not let logic and common sense get into this. Burn GW down! Their tyrannical fascism has to come to an end!

Rabble rabble rabble rabble!

Which part of my problem is hearing different policy from different redshirt do you not understand?

Kanluwen wrote:@Navarro.


Then boycott GW. Have fun. Because if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, West Wind, etc all had a large chain of stores that sold ONLY their product--there is no way in hell they would be selling, encouraging, or promoting anyone else's products.

Having fun on Boycotting GW? What the hell that has to do with anything that I have been talking?
I would follow GW policies if I didnt know better and I would boycott GW if I let them interfere with my hobby... both are equally extreme and both dont lead to anywere IMO... yet some people continue to think that the wise choices lies in extremes.
If I like something I buy it... if its from GW or others its irrelevant to me, Im not taking miniatures companies to my modelling table just their miniatures.

Because if reaper yadadada had chain of stores, you and no one, would know how hey would behave...
You speak of logic but weres the logic in these silly argumentations mate? you didnt even adressed my points mehhhhh or are you even trying to make any point besides... "your haters"?

Sorry to disapoint but Im neither a hater or blind lover... to darn old for both and I learned to make up my mind for myself long time ago

It's fascinating that this thread continues with the same garbage repeated over and over.

"It's big and bad GW ruining the modeling/gaming experience!!!!!!!!!!"

1) The OP was given bad information from what amounts to a registerjockey. Rather than talking to the manager for clarification, he came on here making a pity party/rabble rousing thread about being bullied by The Man.
2)The policy that is in question here ONLY applies to GW stores and GW events(and really--only GW events with an actual GW presence or potential support), and ONLY really applies to qualifications that can be altered on a case by case basis of the event manager.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?

Kanluwen wrote:It's fascinating that this thread continues with the same garbage repeated over and over.

"It's big and bad GW ruining the modeling/gaming experience!!!!!!!!!!"

1) The OP was given bad information from what amounts to a registerjockey. Rather than talking to the manager for clarification, he came on here making a pity party/rabble rousing thread about being bullied by The Man.
2)The policy that is in question here ONLY applies to GW stores and GW events(and really--only GW events with an actual GW presence or potential support), and ONLY really applies to qualifications that can be altered on a case by case basis of the event manager.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?

Instead of telling us what we think are "garbage" and constantly trying to give as statics that god knows where you pulled from " 75% GW product = ok "

How about you do something real useful and provide us some useful confirmation of whats allowed or not online, so we can show to the incompetent red shirts that tells
us other wise.

Im laughing about people using food services as a reason why its ok. The reason you cannot bring food into a restaurant from a different restaurant or home for example, is mainly because of the food born illnesses and passing what ever is on your plate to the rest of the food at said restaurant. If they allowed someone to do that, weather the bad says McDonalds instead of Burger King is irrelevant, is a food inspector sees that, they get shut down. Plain and simple.

Tho if that wasnt the case, Im sure they still wouldnt allow it. But this is food talk, Not miniature conversion talk. I still cant see how people are agreeing with the fact thats its ok for them to say/do that. GW is STILL getting 100% of their profit for the OP buying the cadians box kit. I dont think him buying extra heads, or painting it with non GW paint or ANYTHING for that matter, should matter. They still got their money and after that it shouldnt matter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Luna, if you want to see info on Kanluwen's statistics, its actually up to YOU to disprove him. Since you keep stating that you want PROOF. You have to prove that he is wrong, not the other way around.

Ive seen many people state that in tournaments (sponsored by GW no lesS) that it IS 75% GW minis. And since most of them were tournament players, I tend to believe them

Kanluwen wrote:It's fascinating that this thread continues with the same garbage repeated over and over.

"It's big and bad GW ruining the modeling/gaming experience!!!!!!!!!!"

Yes indeed you continue to spill that same garbage over and over again... Maybe like boycotts its one of those behaviours that you feel good about.

Kanluwen wrote:

1) The OP was given bad information from what amounts to a registerjockey. Rather than talking to the manager for clarification, he came on here making a pity party/rabble rousing thread about being bullied by The Man.
2)The policy that is in question here ONLY applies to GW stores and GW events(and really--only GW events with an actual GW presence or potential support), and ONLY really applies to qualifications that can be altered on a case by case basis of the event manager.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?

1) Bad information? lol sure this is the first bad information we have heard here, for so many years, concerning this... its a first.
2) Not true... many flags and some non GW suported events adopt those anal policies... and some companies also... will that make your point more valid? nope its still anal policies.

Navarro--you just proved my point.

In regards to the first point:
It IS the first time I've heard(I can't speak for the rest of Dakka, but I'm fairly certain nobody else has been told this) about someone being told that they'll be forcibly ejected from a GW store for having one or two pieces of a model being non-GW.

In regards to the second point:
It's their choice to adopt the policies. Those same events might be getting some form of prize support from GW, which means that GW has some say in regards to the rules. If GW will also be posting photographs in White Dwarf or on their website later, again--they get a say in it.

As for other companies also adopting the policies...
It's a BUSINESS CHOICE. Why would they encourage you to use parts from outside of their range?

@Kanluwen
Sorry, probably my bad grasp of english language ..... errr... either that or you dont read with much attention.

What point was that you were saying that I proved? me being a hater?

1) first time for you maybe but its a recorrent story now and then about GW not acepting any kind of convos/other models and acting according to that by penalizing in any way they can... even couple minutes ago on the IP talk in news someone sayed same thing about GW bullyies... really its not something new man.

2) Independent means independent... as for being a business I know businesses who dont work that way...It goes furter... from companies developing etched kits for other companies tanks etc... and all living happy with each others.
You know, let me share a little secret with you... GW business/behaviour model is far from... perfect

Being a business doesnt give you the right to enforce/dump hard your company issues on costumers... who are not a business but rather hobby persons buying your stuff... just buying relaxed fun hobby time...

I'm reading it perfectly, so don't worry.

The point that I said that you proved was that you don't see this happening with FORCIBLE evictions from the premises unless there's some kind of reason to do it.

And as for the IP thing: People are blowing that garbage out of proportion as well. They were heavy handed, but operating under the advice from their legal advisory. It might be bad advice, but they pay for the advice and it might be that they're operating to protect their investment into a third party for the Blood Bowl video game. That, however, is neither here nor there.

What IS here, however is Games Workshop is a fething business. They operate to protect their interests. Any company would. And being a business, in fact, with a privately owned premise does mean you can enforce your company policies on any customer who enters the premises.

In fact, if I were to operate a gaming club out of my house, with a specific set of rules?
I could throw you out for violating them.
A store is essentially a private residence, but with an open door policy. Respect their rules, or shut up and get out.

So has GW printed a graph or guide somewhere assigning percentages to each of the limbs/body parts of a model, so that we know exactly what the feth 75% is supposed to be in their eyes, or is it purposely kept vague?

"Head swaps? Nope, your model is only 60% GW now since we consider the head to count for 40% of the model!"

Sidstyler wrote:So has GW printed a graph or guide somewhere assigning percentages to each of the limbs/body parts of a model, so that we know exactly what the feth 75% is supposed to be in their eyes, or is it purposely kept vague?

"Head swaps? Nope, your model is only 60% GW now since we consider the head to count for 40% of the model!"

I agree , and whats the % based on? per every individual miniatures?

or

are there exceptions when used in a scenic base , a diorama , or a sceneic diorama within a regiment block ( we often see these in fantasy battles )

Exactly, does the base count as part of the model? For how much?

Does Forge World count for GW parts when determining this? If I use a Forge World XV89 on a Back-to-Base-ix resin base is that legal?

No clue what their percentages are. I'd assume, using common sense and logic, that the head would make up 25% of any 4 part(head, limbs, chest, and legs) model.

Wait, we're not allowed to use logic. I forgot we're just here to moan about how they're RUINING OUR HOBBY!!11!!.

Also, assuming scenic bases, Forge World, and other things:
Again, I doubt they really give a flying crap what you use as the actual base. I know that my Inquisitor Rex model, which is mounted on a MicroArts Ruined Temple base has been allowed as a stand-in for Belial at a few official events I went to in NY.

So make of that what you will.

IMO once you purchase said model its no longer GW, Reaper or any other company out there. Its yours you can do what you wish and If they have a hard time sayin its not a GW model, I will straight tell them no none of my GW models are GW models there Stargates models, I bought them. Hence they stop being property of GW.

Some one showed bring that up next time they go to a grand tourament... you can only use GW models... and pose the question to them . ONce we purchase said models dont they become my models... and no longer your??

I wonder if GW really does have that whole percentage/part thing worked out - probably not. Likely just up to the individual in charge of the store or tournament.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Cane wrote:Agreed. Also hypocritical that the users that behave that way get their panties in a bunch when its turned on them.

What part of MeanGreenStompas post did you fail at reading?

Bignutter wrote:It didn't come across as sarcasm- and with some of the things that have been said before really implies that some people have a problem with GW staff

Considering heated opinions on Jervis, Thorpe, et al kind of hard for one not to side with Bignutter's view

If you want to discuss it further just shoot a PM

Kanluwen wrote:Wait, we're not allowed to use logic.

GW won't, why should I?

Kanluwen wrote:No clue what their percentages are. I'd assume, using common sense and logic, that the head would make up 25% of any 4 part(head, limbs, chest, and legs) model.

Wait, we're not allowed to use logic. I forgot we're just here to moan about how they're RUINING OUR HOBBY!!11!!.

The GW miniatures are deformed, but not that much. The head is 15% of the total mass of the figure, tops. Someone with a really accurate scale could do some weighings and ascertain this with an appropriate precision.

KingCracker wrote:Im sorry but thats just ridiculous. You supported GW buy buying your Cadians. You THEN spent more money to buy heads for said Cadians.
Now if you bought a totally different game makers minis, and wanted to play in GW Id completely agree with the redshirt, but theres now way thats right/fair to say you cant simply because of the heads.

Here is truth.
I fully understand GW applying the boot to someone's ass if they come in with an army of imperial guard made from green army men or Infinity models or something. But when a model is clearly a GW model and has had modifications added, then you should be fine, cosmetic additions are just that. GW has had it's sale and as part of the trade-off from that, you get to bring your imperial guard model in and play with it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264924.page#1111974
Here's a link to some (IMO) very cool looking imperial guard using pig iron heads and also nonGW backpacks and in one case a plasticard heavy bolter. Despite all the cosmetic personalisation that has occurred, fact remains that a box of imperial guard has been turned into a unit of imperial guard and I personally feel that means the guy can play them in a GW shop and should feel somewhat annoyed (even to the extent of posting on the discussion forum) if he's told to hop it out of the shop. Now with head and backpack those models are probably 35%+ not GW, but the model is, ultimately an imperial guard figure with accessories.

I think he can play those figs in a GW shop, does anyone feel that he cant and if so, why not?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Im sorry but thats just ridiculous. You supported GW buy buying your Cadians. You THEN spent more money to buy heads for said Cadians.
Now if you bought a totally different game makers minis, and wanted to play in GW Id completely agree with the redshirt, but theres now way thats right/fair to say you cant simply because of the heads.

Here is truth.
I fully understand GW applying the boot to someone's ass if they come in with an army of imperial guard made from green army men or Infinity models or something. But when a model is clearly a GW model and has had modifications added, then you should be fine, cosmetic additions are just that. GW has had it's sale and as part of the trade-off from that, you get to bring your imperial guard model in and play with it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264924.page#1111974
Here's a link to some (IMO) very cool looking imperial guard using pig iron heads and also nonGW backpacks and in one case a plasticard heavy bolter. Despite all the cosmetic personalisation that has occurred, fact remains that a box of imperial guard has been turned into a unit of imperial guard and I personally feel that means the guy can play them in a GW shop and should feel somewhat annoyed (even to the extent of posting on the discussion forum) if he's told to hop it out of the shop. Now with head and backpack those models are probably 35%+ not GW, but the model is, ultimately an imperial guard figure with accessories.

I think he can play those figs in a GW shop, does anyone feel that he cant and if so, why not?

Thats the problem MGS , kenluwen seem to misunderstand what i was trying to say.

Im not saying GW is right or wrong to enforce or not enforce none GW bits used. All im asking is something concrete , so i wont ( for example )
spend $ on buying pig iron head for 150 guardsmen when 1 red shirt says no problem! , then just to be told by random red shirt that i cant use them after i went thru all the $ or effort.

So Yes is ok , No is ok too . But something certain!

Frazzled wrote:What other materials?
Hawkins' heads are made of people!

Brown stuff, magic sculpt, self made lead heads that kinda thing.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No clue what their percentages are. I'd assume, using common sense and logic, that the head would make up 25% of any 4 part(head, limbs, chest, and legs) model.

Wait, we're not allowed to use logic. I forgot we're just here to moan about how they're RUINING OUR HOBBY!!11!!.

The GW miniatures are deformed, but not that much. The head is 15% of the total mass of the figure, tops. Someone with a really accurate scale could do some weighings and ascertain this with an appropriate precision.

GW figures are badly deformed. Compare a GW figure (1/56 scale) with a historical 1/35 scale figure for an eye-opener.

And this topic also raises the question of scratchbuilt models, are they ok?

Could I bring this in?

What about fully-sculpted models you did yourself? Do you have to show proof that you bought the green stuff at a GW?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm reading it perfectly, so don't worry.

Good to know now Im less worried.

Kanluwen wrote:

The point that I said that you proved was that you don't see this happening with FORCIBLE evictions from the premises unless there's some kind of reason to do it. .

And the reasons are what we are discussing an some find it outrageous ridiculous.

Kanluwen wrote:
And as for the IP thing: People are blowing that garbage out of proportion as well. They were heavy handed, but operating under the advice from their legal advisory. It might be bad advice, but they pay for the advice and it might be that they're operating to protect their investment into a third party for the Blood Bowl video game. That, however, is neither here nor there.
.

A bit worried with your reading again I was not commenting IP issue I was giving you a example how GW bullying is several times mentioned on dakka and forwarded you there...

Kanluwen wrote:
What IS here, however is Games Workshop is a fething business. They operate to protect their interests. Any company would. And being a business, in fact, with a privately owned premise does mean you can enforce your company policies on any customer who enters the premises.

In fact, if I were to operate a gaming club out of my house, with a specific set of rules?
I could throw you out for violating them.
A store is essentially a private residence, but with an open door policy. Respect their rules, or shut up and get out.

Protecting interests is very diferent from imposing "your wars on competiton" to the clueless hobby person... whats it to me if they dislike other brands? One thing is getting kicked from a store/ tournament for not being civilized another diferent thing is being kicked because you dont embraçe the blind GW gospel propaganda... This is not a chearch or religion or partidary get together... its HOBBY for the people that go there... so lets keep it THAT way.

And again your stuck to the same small pointless argumentation " its their store their rules" wich I adressed many post above and actually agree with it... the thing is, its not what we are debating now.... We are debating "the rules" and how unapropriate they are and how they lack good judgement... or how could they be more friendly and less antagonizing.