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Actually you are probably more right than I am. Marine Dread bash is more a gunduel or countercharge type of list.

BA will certainly out-do Chaos, however. Mephiston floating around plus AV13 Furiosos with variable kit in greater quanitty than the Chaos list can put out and the option to pod in will one-up CSM.

sourclams wrote:Actually you are probably more right than I am. Marine Dread bash is more a gunduel or countercharge type of list.

BA will certainly out-do Chaos, however. Mephiston floating around plus AV13 Furiosos with variable kit in greater quanitty than the Chaos list can put out and the option to pod in will one-up CSM.

Yea, the Marine "dread bash" isn't really all that special. Now, Blood Angels will steal the crown for sure. They bring their own lashes for vehicles, which is the Chaos Dread Bash's problem. That and Mephiston is an MC that isnt' an MC.

It'll be interesting when some hindsight is brought to bear. Until then all these predictions about the Blood Angel Codex so much hot air. Remember how Vanguard were going to be 'raping face' until people actually found out about their cost? I think people are counting their chickens before they've hatched, as usual.

Edit: Oops, that "until" should have been "when".

Actually I don't think anybody was claiming that Vanguard would be raping face except the typical New Codex Alarmists. The focus was wholly on Sternguard and Thunder Terms, and Vanguard were largely ignored due to being completely outshown.

I have to agree with nurglitch. One of my good friends is going from space marines to blood angels, due to how crappy space marines are. And i dont hold it against him for switching. However, im sticking strong to my chaos marines and i bet i can go toe to toe with him.

Space Marines are not crappy. They're still capable of hugely powerful, if somewhat bland, mech lists.

If your friend isn't building effective lists, then codex hopping won't help him unless he happens to fall into something that suits his playstyle better.

Well, he doesnt like mech lists. And blood angels by far and away fits his play style better. Hence why he is switching.

A good note to live by sourclams, if you dont know the situation, insults are not the best thing to start out with.

Thoughts on blood angels.

Mepheston has no Invo and lacks eternal warrior. That leaves him highly vulnerable to non toughness insta death such as wraith cannons, The Swarmlord, and Boneswords. Most Nid warriors with boneswords also have poison attacks. It also leaves him partially vulnerable to warptime +force weapons, but I say partially vulnerable because he has a psychic hood. Thunder hammer terminators will also smash his face, so he's really not that great against tyranids and regular codex marines. He can give chaos some problems, but his vulnerability to tryanids, eldar, and codex marines means he will have definite downsides in a tournament setting.

Flying Psychic Furioso dreadnaughts cost a minimum of 175 points, and can not be venerable. AV13 means little to melta guns.

An all Khorne army is not viable with the CSM codex, and has never been viable with the CSM codex. An army with nothing but Khorne Zerkers for troops has never worked because they lack melta guns, and are very weak against tanks. It's actually viable now if a Khorne player uses the BA codex as their assault squads can carry multiple melta pistols. Field 60 zerkers as BA assault squads dropping jump packs for a free rhino supported by non psychic blood tallon dreadnaughts plus sanguinary priests and it's everything a Khorne zerker list should have been.

mrwittwer wrote:Well, he doesnt like mech lists. And blood angels by far and away fits his play style better. Hence why he is switching.

A good note to live by sourclams, if you dont know the situation, insults are not the best thing to start out with.

I'm not so sure that non-mech BA is going to be any better than non-mech marines. That will have to wait until the BA codex is released.

However, I would be really surprised if the BA's can be effective without mech.

In the end, I don't think folks need to stick their head in every oven that's been on broil for the last hour to see if it's hot.

In the hands of a skilled and experienced player, CSM can still give every army a true run for their money. I tend to run mech/infantry spam backed by two DP's and can honestly say I'm still about 50/50 W/L versus all the books.

BA's will bring us all down a notch though with all those subtle extras like beefier, cheaper heroes, unit upgrades, and wicked weapon options.

I have faith though because with all the cheese rolling out of the GW kitchen, our new book is sure to do more than turn some heads.

imweasel wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:Well, he doesnt like mech lists. And blood angels by far and away fits his play style better. Hence why he is switching.

A good note to live by sourclams, if you dont know the situation, insults are not the best thing to start out with.

I'm not so sure that non-mech BA is going to be any better than non-mech marines. That will have to wait until the BA codex is released.

However, I would be really surprised if the BA's can be effective without mech.

In the end, I don't think folks need to stick their head in every oven that's been on broil for the last hour to see if it's hot.

He doesnt like mech lists. Not to say he doesnt use mech, as that is just silly. Rhinos are entirely needed in any Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, or any flavor of marine book imo.

Blood Angels are going to be far more CC orientated than C:SM is. Thats why he wants to switch. And he has been playing with C:SM since he was in 6th grade and could use some change

But as to the question will Blood Angels give Chaos a run for their money, yes. But thats how all books should be.

schadenfreude wrote:Flying Psychic Furioso dreadnaughts cost a minimum of 175 points, and can not be venerable. AV13 means little to melta guns.

An all Khorne army is not viable with the CSM codex, and has never been viable with the CSM codex. An army with nothing but Khorne Zerkers for troops has never worked because they lack melta guns, and are very weak against tanks. It's actually viable now if a Khorne player uses the BA codex as their assault squads can carry multiple melta pistols. Field 60 zerkers as BA assault squads dropping jump packs for a free rhino supported by non psychic blood tallon dreadnaughts plus sanguinary priests and it's everything a Khorne zerker list should have been.

Mephiston + flying Psychic Furioso dreads will be a nightmare for anyone. Mephiston, having Toughness instead of AV, attacks different targets then the dreads. Also, while Mephiston is vulnerable to shooting, it will still take multiple shots to defeat him, and he will most likely always have cover. In CC, correct he is much more vulnerable, but he should be there to break your big boys out of tough spots.

175 Points for an AV13, 2x CCW, Flying Dread? Yes please. Defilers are 150, only AV12, and are WS3, BS3, and is comparable movement-wise because of fleet. I'd say the furioso is still a damn good buy, especially since I'm sure there will be lots of 100 or so point multi-melta or assault cannon dreads backing your army up too. Blood Angel dread bash sounds really interesting.

As for counts as Chaos, I couldn't be happier right now. Space Wolves (when I want to use my Thunder Blood Crusher Wolves), Blood Angels when I want to run interesting infantry, and Chaos when I want to have Demon Princes and Greater Demons, all with the same models. Bonus!

They may have lost some of their punch but CSM troop choices are still amazing. I think something that has been overlooked is the fact that their LR is only 220 points, 30 points cheaper than Vanilla Marines and 10 Khorne Berzerkers charging out of those bad boys are pretty scary.

whitedragon wrote:Mephiston + flying Psychic Furioso dreads will be a nightmare for anyone. Mephiston, having Toughness instead of AV, attacks different targets then the dreads. Also, while Mephiston is vulnerable to shooting, it will still take multiple shots to defeat him, and he will most likely always have cover. In CC, correct he is much more vulnerable, but he should be there to break your big boys out of tough spots.

What if they bring psychic defense? Mephiston's in the lurch if he charges a Dread and fails his Psychic test for strength 10, and all those Dreads aren't going to be so scary if they end up walking instead of flying-- then they're just Ironclads without hunter-killer missiles or drop pods!

whitedragon wrote:175 Points for an AV13, 2x CCW, Flying Dread? Yes please. Defilers are 150, only AV12, and are WS3, BS3, and is comparable movement-wise because of fleet.

And Defilers are terrible. Librarian Dreadnoughts are probably better, but better isn't necessarily the same as good.

jaweyermuller wrote:I think something that has been overlooked is the fact that their LR is only 220 points, 30 points cheaper than Vanilla Marines and 10 Khorne Berzerkers charging out of those bad boys are pretty scary.

I don't think it has been overlooked at all. Those 30 points are well worth it, and I think most chaos players would love to be able to pay 30 points to have a machine spirit, and the ability to carry 2 extra men... Might mean those berserkers piling out could charge a squad that fell out of a rhino that your lascannon destroyed, rather than charging the rhino... Let alone the ability to carry a pintle multi-melta, or a one of the variant LRs.

In the battle between loyalist LR and chaos LR, loyalists win every time. They can move 12" and shoot a MM at the chaos land raider. The Chaos version, while marginally cheaper, can either move slowly and shoot a lascannon, or move up, and waste those lascannons.

I'm pleased to see that the discussion has moved to real Chaos units at last. Previously the debate comparing basic CSM to Grey Hunters was like looking at the Ogre Kingdoms book and complaining that Goblins and Skaven Slaves were better than your Noblars. Nobody cares.

That said, here's some points in CSM's favor. I don't think there's much dispute about any of these.

Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game (aside from Weaken Resolve, and that's guard, who we aren't really comparing with here). You get a lash off, you usually win. You get two off, it's almost certain. From clumping troops up, to pulling them into a formation where they can't fight back when the Zerks charge, Lash Wins Games.

Cult Troops, while more expensive, are also better than Grey Hunters, or Tac Marines. They are even better than the elite variants, so long as rough point equality is maintained. Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard, Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting, Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads. Plus the Chaos guys are all troops, and hence score. (without needing Pedro), plus they are fearless. It isn't even close to equal.

Chaos Rhinos are better than ordinary rhinos. Combi-bolter is superior to storm bolter for a transport, and on top of that the ability to get a combi melta for the vehicle is something SM's would kill for. Bigger point than folks normally consider.

Obliterators remain one of the best Heavy Support choices in the game. They can deep strike, they have Terminator armor, they have the right weapon for every situation, and a template to synergize with Lash. They even have power fists if the enemy gets close to fight, and they are also fearless to boot. Now, I'll concede that Long Fangs are better at tank busting for their points, which is the majority of what the Oblits get up to, but the Oblits situational value (deep striking Ironclad? Twin linked Meltas! Lashed Snikrot? Twin linked flamers!) goes a long way to making up for it.

Chaos Terminators are superior to loyalist terminators. Most loyalists are just TH/SS terminators, while the Chaos Terminators can shoot preposterously hard once per game and still fight just fine (MoT and a chainfist or two is a passable loyalist impression without losing the majority's init) Only real drawback is the lack of ASTKNF, but that doesn't come up for Terminators as often as for other units, and ld 10 helps mitigate the issue.

Defiler vs. Ironclad is an interesting question. The ironclad has extra armor, the defiler is a daemon, the Ironclad is superior in CC, the Defiler has Fleet. I'd give it to the Ironclad, but Space Wolves don't really have a walker that can compete with the Ironclad, and every once in a while the battlecannon is awesome. (Between fleet and battlecannon the Defiler synergizes really well with Lash. In a game vs. a foe without psyker defenses I think the Defiler is dramatically superior to the clad).

If Lash isn't your thing CSM beats the other codexes hands down for fighting HQ's. Abaddon makes a mockery of anything in their books in a fight (on a 2+...), while Kharne is a bargain priced trash kicker. Even just a basic HQ has several ability's that the other dexes can't copy. Wings that let the user move as jump infantry without counting as it (so they can embark) aren't available anywhere else. Warptime, Daemon weapons...CSM HQ's can bring the pain. Heck, a Blissgiver Lord w/wings lurking somewhere in the rhino grid a serious problem for a lot of dexes.

40kenthusiast wrote:
Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game (aside from Weaken Resolve, and that's guard, who we aren't really comparing with here). You get a lash off, you usually win. You get two off, it's almost certain. From clumping troops up, to pulling them into a formation where they can't fight back when the Zerks charge, Lash Wins Games.

You're right about most of what you've said, but the environment has changed to one where getting Lash off is far from a given. When everyone is meched up and/or running psychic defenses, who are you lashing about? The seer council? Not often. Orks? Sure, if they're not in wagons, and even then, against a green tide list, even double-lashing every turn leads to a fighting retreat as you push them back and they keep pushing forwards. Marines (or their variants) - they're all in tanks. At the tournament I took my dual-lash list to last month, in one game, I got lash off and trashed some thunderwolves, because my opponent played poorly. If he'd pushed Njal up the field along with his wolves, probably not. Against my second opponent, it wasn't even necessary, and against my third, Eldrad's magic rocks shut it down, leaving my lashers out of position (having hoped to get one of them off) and then shot up.

Cult Troops, while more expensive, are also better than Grey Hunters, or Tac Marines. They are even better than the elite variants, so long as rough point equality is maintained. Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard, Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting, Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads. Plus the Chaos guys are all troops, and hence score. (without needing Pedro), plus they are fearless. It isn't even close to equal.

Again, you're right in a vacuum, but the meta environment doesn't care. Zerkers might be scoring, but if they're also your hitters, they'll get ground down. Noise Marines might be able to outshoot sternguard, but once you put them in the position to shoot, they die as easily as other marines. In the current meta-environment, they're not better at doing what needs to be done. Tac marines are. Tac marines carry meltaguns. They ride around in rhinos. They leave half their guys behind with a missile launcher and an objective, and shoot at your transports.

Once marines are out of their rides, they all die easily enough (except, perhaps, plague marines). Do you want to trade your zerkers for your opponent's rhino, because that's what they'll be charging most of the time.

I'll grant you obliterators still rock. Against opponents who largely aren't running lascannons, obliterators hang around a long time and do whatever the situation dictates.

In a game vs. a foe without psyker defenses I think the Defiler is dramatically superior to the clad).

Which is who, exactly? Assuming we can count a transport as psychic defense, because we know what power you're using, who isn't running psychic defenses? Daemons and Nids, maybe orks... Most opponents have some sort of psychic defense.

Maybe it's because of how potent Lash can be (and how brutal things like bloodcrushers are against non-mech armies) that the metagame has shifted, but it has, and the key now is being able to handle mech, not handle men. Cult marines don't do that as well (or as cheaply) as normal marines.

@40kenthusiast:

Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game

Lash has been around, and well...it's old news.
Mech coupled with MSU leanings = not a game winner.
In addition, it's highly dependant on delivery with respect to survivability.

Cult Troops

But that expensive side is understated by you. Grey Hunters are essentially cult troops with respect to their additional rules and weapon load outs. Tac Marines are pretty much the only thing you can say is worse off.

Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard,

So…? They are entirely different units. Vangaurd get to the action easier and (BA) accurately

Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting,

Sternguard bring heavy weapons or combi-weapons, get pods to get to shoot best.
Sternguard trump NM with respect to by passing Armor 4/wounding anything well/cover saved units.

Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads.

Except when stormshields are involved with stuff that bypasses FNP.

Fearless is a double edged sword, ATSKNF coupled with Combat Tactics makes for more risk/reward mechanic. While all of the Cults are scoring, it doesn’t matter a whole lot if you know what you are doing with your army…(ie you only need one more than the opponent to win, so spamming troops is a risk averse issue at the very least).

Chaos Rhinos are better than ordinary rhinos

/shrug, you focus on the combi-weapon option, which isn’t something that everyone takes, esp. on rides that are assumed to die…in addition, with a paid for ranged weapon, there are plenty of other things the rhino does already, shooting IMO just makes it more vulnerable.
Don’t forget Razorbacks and drop pods… them trump rhinos in other cases.

Oblits

I love them too, but I wouldn’t call them the best Heavy Support. One pays for their versatility, but that’s just it, they are versatile, they are not that durable and the fist comment is moot.

Chaos Termies

That’s the problem with them, they are just a combi-weapon delivery system.
TH/SS live well enough to dish it out, there are much force multipliers available to the Marine players, it’s not just Chaos and their Lash…again you are understating the advantages the loyalists have ATSKNF is that good and the option for stubborn is not shabby as well.
Ld 10 is not enough, this you are overestimating.

Defiler vs. Ironclad

Stupid Comparison IMO.

Abaddon

Abby is a joke. No force multipliers for a combat only model that can go stupid.

Kharn

He’s good, but he does not carry the whole army…and the inv. save is laughable for an instant killable IC.

warptime

It’s nice, and keeps to the theme of offensive powers, but the scale in power is different. Chaos powers are more focus while the SM powers are toolbox/utility powers…the more they affect the ‘better’ they are, while WT does have its issues.

You need to put it up at the start, so there’s the possibility you are out of combat and wasted it.

Daemon weapons

Is a risk/reward system, with pros and cons, to say it makes Chaos stronger/better is not accurate as as much as it can help, it can hinder.

Blissgiver

Bliss has always been ‘meh’.
Most uber characters worth instant killing are immune or buried in a burly squad or great invs.
Though the Blissgiver has high intitiative, it’s stuck at str 4 which really sucks.
The new nids that aren’t all immune to instant death breathed new life into the blissgiver, but in most cases you must roll a 6 to wound…which then makes it just a luck weapon rather than something reliable and competitive.

CSM are good, but if you pit two equally skilled players with a ‘Ard CSM list and a ‘Ard list from the new SW or BA, to a lesser extent to Vanilla SM, it will be the CSM that fall short…at the very least it’s because they’ve been out longer than the rest and it’s not a surprise of how to deal with them as there really isn’t that much variety when it comes with chaos.

CSM have less force multipliers and work best if they can engage the opponent who has not set up overlapping fields of support…makes sense. Otherwise, the force multipliers of these newer armies work wonders against an army list that is just painfully straightforward.

Redbeard wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:
Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game (aside from Weaken Resolve, and that's guard, who we aren't really comparing with here). You get a lash off, you usually win. You get two off, it's almost certain. From clumping troops up, to pulling them into a formation where they can't fight back when the Zerks charge, Lash Wins Games.

You're right about most of what you've said, but the environment has changed to one where getting Lash off is far from a given. When everyone is meched up and/or running psychic defenses, who are you lashing about? The seer council? Not often. Orks? Sure, if they're not in wagons, and even then, against a green tide list, even double-lashing every turn leads to a fighting retreat as you push them back and they keep pushing forwards. Marines (or their variants) - they're all in tanks. At the tournament I took my dual-lash list to last month, in one game, I got lash off and trashed some thunderwolves, because my opponent played poorly. If he'd pushed Njal up the field along with his wolves, probably not. Against my second opponent, it wasn't even necessary, and against my third, Eldrad's magic rocks shut it down, leaving my lashers out of position (having hoped to get one of them off) and then shot up.

Cult Troops, while more expensive, are also better than Grey Hunters, or Tac Marines. They are even better than the elite variants, so long as rough point equality is maintained. Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard, Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting, Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads. Plus the Chaos guys are all troops, and hence score. (without needing Pedro), plus they are fearless. It isn't even close to equal.

Again, you're right in a vacuum, but the meta environment doesn't care. Zerkers might be scoring, but if they're also your hitters, they'll get ground down. Noise Marines might be able to outshoot sternguard, but once you put them in the position to shoot, they die as easily as other marines. In the current meta-environment, they're not better at doing what needs to be done. Tac marines are. Tac marines carry meltaguns. They ride around in rhinos. They leave half their guys behind with a missile launcher and an objective, and shoot at your transports.

Once marines are out of their rides, they all die easily enough (except, perhaps, plague marines). Do you want to trade your zerkers for your opponent's rhino, because that's what they'll be charging most of the time.

I'll grant you obliterators still rock. Against opponents who largely aren't running lascannons, obliterators hang around a long time and do whatever the situation dictates.

There are a few errors in your reasoning here.

40kenthusiast describes his situation in a vaccum as this describes the strength of a unit without external factors. Which is a good way of looking at things to gain a basic knowledge of what the units strength is. Then you, redbeard, remind that games do not work in a vaccuum and how Chaos deals with the external factors is what gives them strength. This is also good to judge what actually works, as opposed to what looks like it should work. My gripe is you judge things only in your specific scenarios which are made to prove your point. The scenario needs to be broadened to cover the entire game to judge overall value of something.

Tac marines do carry a melta gun, plague marines carry two, and vanilla CSM carry two. A greater advantage by far vs tanks. Plague marines also synergize perfectly with plasma guns which is never mentioned in your comparison.

I have never charged a rhino with khorne bezerkers. And quite frankly im not sure why you are either. I leave the pooping of light armored units to heavy support. Their job IS to open up the cans so the bezerkers DO have something to charge at. Bezerkers are a one shot kill, they charge out and more times than not, kill what they are charging. After that, its your job to protect them, or watch them die. This is a known fact, but this is why target selection and transport popping is so needed. If the job of cracking rhinos is left to bezerkers then either your list or your playstyle is broken and dont expect to win much. But dont use that as an example to prove a point.

The same goes with lash, open the transport, lash what came out. Really quite the simple. Lash regarding eldar and shadow of the warp is a different story. For this i go back to, dont rely on lash to win games. I dont use lash and have never needed to. However, vs nids i dont find lash to be all that important of a power, and as long as you maneuver outside of its range, it shouldnt be that much of a problem. vs eldar there really isnt much that can be done. Keep your lash princes in cover and dont expose them for the chance to get one lash off, more than likely it isnt worth it.

I think most of chaos's short commings can be avoided with proper strategy and with Blood Angels coming out, we will just have to get a lil creative and maybe break the Oblit, Plaguemarine, Lash prince mold.

Vache Glace wrote:-I’ve found that Bezerkers are quite useless in todays metagame. Hitting on 3’s and wounding on 3’s is quite awful when you’re facing a giant horde of FNP tyranids or a giant mob of orks (cc against horde is supposed to be their specialty!!!). They’re also quite useless against vehicles, have low survivability, are slow, and need the charge to be even remotely effective.

I disagree here, zerkers are quite effective in their role. I have used them to mow through giant mobs of Orks. However I believe they really need a LR since in order to truly shine they need to be assaulting.

Vache Glace wrote:-Noise Marines suffer from a lot of the problems that TS have. They cost a lot to get their good weaponry and they are still slow. They’re somewhat interesting but I can’t see them even winning their points back.

I totally agree with this point, as what you get for the cost is utter nonsense. For the cost per model they should at least come with the sonic blasters as they truly aren't Noise Marines without them. The I5 you get over the regular CSMs is a throw away as I see this unit as being shooty more than cc. I really like the models and would love to field them but I just can't justify the cost.

mrwittwer wrote:
There are a few errors in your reasoning here.

40kenthusiast describes his situation in a vaccum as this describes the strength of a unit without external factors. Which is a good way of looking at things to gain a basic knowledge of what the units strength is. Then you, redbeard, remind that games do not work in a vaccuum and how Chaos deals with the external factors is what gives them strength. This is also good to judge what actually works, as opposed to what looks like it should work. My gripe is you judge things only in your specific scenarios which are made to prove your point. The scenario needs to be broadened to cover the entire game to judge overall value of something.

The scenarios I mention are those I have encountered at tournaments.

Tac marines do carry a melta gun, plague marines carry two, and vanilla CSM carry two. A greater advantage by far vs tanks. Plague marines also synergize perfectly with plasma guns which is never mentioned in your comparison.

Tac marines, the way I've seen them run locally, have a sgt w/ a combi-weapon that synergizes with the special in the squad.

I have never charged a rhino with khorne bezerkers. And quite frankly im not sure why you are either. I leave the pooping of light armored units to heavy support.

Well, I don't use loaded dice, so sometimes, the popping of the light transport by the heavy support unit doesn't happen, and in those cases, when the berserkers are in position to get a charge on a unit that would have been there, had the transport popped, they might as well charge the transport, rather than sitting around charging nothing.

Never? You've never failed to pop a transport in 5th edition. I find that hard to believe. I've been on both sides of vehicles that simply do not die. That get 1's and 2's on result tables.

I think most of chaos's short commings can be avoided with proper strategy...

Right right, the generic call for 'use better strategy'. I don't know where you play, or what sort of opponents you play against. My record at major tournaments is pretty good, and that's playing against other good players. I don't think it's strategy that is the problem...

Wait, can't you fill every FOC slot in the chaos codex with an autocannon?

What kind of list would that be if someone tried it....(probably a horrible one, but with RACs and ACs, you could generate more S7 AP4 hits than 45 lootas)

Edit: I'm just trying to say that chaos CAN pop light vehicles, this is an extreme example, but I think that the lack of long range firepower is not as extreme as you might think

Simply: It's not cost efficient.

Loading up on autocannons in "every slot" costs you mobility and serves to generally keep you at arms' length, which is not where close-range firefight and assault armies want to be.

RACs are simply horribly priced.

Lash-

Still not enough credit for Lash. If those Zerkers are in another book and they are standing outside of the vehicle and the shooting wrecks it the enemy gets away by disembarking > 6" out. CSM tries two lashes. Even if the enemy has psyker defense (the type doesn't matter too much, they are both basically 1/2 chance of blocking, whether by making the check fail or 4+ing or winning the dice off) they only have a 1/4 of blocking both tests, and if one gets off the unit is pulled into anti-CC formation (1-2 guys able to fight back) and obliterated by charging zerks.

The advice of "Mech Up" acts like, as Mr.Twitter says, the CSM can't demech enemies just fine.

And it may be "old news", but that doesn't make it stop working. Still the game's best psyker power. Still the best followup for a unit getting disembarked. Still makes a mockery of the nids whole codex. (12" defense vs. 24" range power = lose).

The idea that the holder is somehow fragile is provably wrong. It's a character in a cult squad. Offhand, what's more survivable? He's even I6 in case of Jaws. I guess you could turn him into a spawn/squig, if you can get him out of the vehicle, but that's about it.

Abaddon:

The idea that he's bad is simply incorrect. Abaddon in a squad means that that squad only has a chance of losing combat 1/6 of the time, or if it gets lashed. Just as an example, as long as you keep him back so the other player can't base to base with their Warboss the odds are he'll make a Plague Marine squad beat a Nob Biker unit that charges it.

Chaos Terminators: The "problem" with them is that they are a combi weapon delivery system? What? I wish all my units had that "problem". 5 points for a combi weapon is a bargain. Once it's gone they are still terminators. With MoT they only have a 1/6 worse invul save than the loyalists, without the always goes last bonus of the TH stuck in. The loyalists need the hammers to bust vehicles. The CSM accomplish the same with a couple of chainfists and combi meltas, and have enough slots left over to get up to anything else they need to. Stubborn and ASTKNF rarely matter for Terminators. If they are losing, they are usually going to be gone.

Also, Lash is a better "synergy" than fleet or anything else in the SM book.

Warptime: You "wasted" it? You can't run out! You might have taken a wound on your caster, if the enemy didn't assault a unit you were thinking they would. It's rarely a problem.

If you go straight to meta, CSM dominate Orks with Lash, SW and SM have a tough game vs. them.

I don't think that it's at all a pat conclusion that a SW list will beat a CSM list, given equally skilled players. That's totally unsupported. CSM has won it's share of tourneys, is played by it's share of skilled players. It's totally a contender in the MEQ world.

Intense hatred for Lash/Plague Marines/Zerkers/Oblits doesn't mean that they've stopped working.

I agree with 40Ke here. CSM is still quite powerful. Abbey is no joke and lash is still effective. Redbeard if you got just one lash off against me (which was statistically more likely than what happened) you kill all the Warp Spiders and probably win that game.

For all the talk about IG armies with 6+ chimeras ... I don't see it. This must be a theory hammer army list. In 7-8 40k tournament series events at the Chicago Battle Bunker no IG army has ever won. The players from this tournament include multiple top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz, multiple Adepticon Gladiater, championships and team tournament winners. All these people have played in the tourneys and not a single Ig army has won. Something is up with that list and I'm not sure what it is.

Chaos is just fine. It's not the shiny new toy of the month, but it's the Gran Turino of cars. Still top of the line and classic.

Well, I don't use loaded dice, so sometimes, the popping of the light transport by the heavy support unit doesn't happen, and in those cases, when the berserkers are in position to get a charge on a unit that would have been there, had the transport popped, they might as well charge the transport, rather than sitting around charging nothing.

Never? You've never failed to pop a transport in 5th edition. I find that hard to believe. I've been on both sides of vehicles that simply do not die. That get 1's and 2's on result tables.

First of all, i wasnt insulting you, so please dont insult me. I simply wished to point out how things can be different and if you take offense to that, i am sorry.

And of course i have failed to pop a transport, quite often in fact, thats just how it goes. But that doesnt mean i charge anyways. Just because there is a plan in motion doesnt mean it has to be done. I simply reposition for a better target or take the next best course of action depending on the game. If option A doesnt work then switch to option B. Charging a squad of zerkers into a rhino is a horrible idea. The stuff will get out, shoot and charge. By that point bezerkers are done. Thats like if i was going to eat an apple, but i saw it was rotten, but i decided to eat it anyways because i had planned to eat it. Just doesnt make sense. This is what i mean by strategy, keep a plan in mind of what to do if the first plan doesnt work.

Er, you have to be in position to assault before you know whether or not your shooting will disembark the target unit successfully. It's more like deciding to eat an apple and finding out if it's rotten or not after the first bite. You need to commit the squad before you find out if that's beneficial or not.

For all the talk about IG armies with 6+ chimeras ... I don't see it. This must be a theory hammer army list. In 7-8 40k tournament series events at the Chicago Battle Bunker no IG army has ever won. The players from this tournament include multiple top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz, multiple Adepticon Gladiater, championships and team tournament winners. All these people have played in the tourneys and not a single Ig army has won. Something is up with that list and I'm not sure what it is.

Now we're just spinning into a strange place where we refuse to acknowledge that top of the line competitive lists exist. 6+ Chimera lists do exist, are played regularly, and actually won Ard Boyz last year. I personally have won back to back tournaments with mech IG in my region.

DarthDiggler wrote:I agree with 40Ke here. CSM is still quite powerful. Abbey is no joke and lash is still effective. Redbeard if you got just one lash off against me (which was statistically more likely than what happened) you kill all the Warp Spiders and probably win that game.

For all the talk about IG armies with 6+ chimeras ... I don't see it. This must be a theory hammer army list. In 7-8 40k tournament series events at the Chicago Battle Bunker no IG army has ever won. The players from this tournament include multiple top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz, multiple Adepticon Gladiater, championships and team tournament winners. All these people have played in the tourneys and not a single Ig army has won. Something is up with that list and I'm not sure what it is.

I honestly think that's what's up with the guard army, in the Chicago area, is that none of the 'good' players have adopted it / have it painted and ready to go, in an optimal layout. I played against at least three different guard armies during the course of the event, and none of them were what is generally considered good. No manticores, I think I saw one vendetta, total, no hydras... And I bet some of that has to do with painting. Guard is an intensive army to prepare. The people who ran guard weren't running optimal lists, and weren't among those people who have got the multiple event finishes. Several of them were running the guard models they had from the old codex, stretching upgrades just to make the new point structure.

And if the metric to judge the army by is did it win, did Chaos Marines win one? (I honestly don't know). I know that Dark Eldar, Eldar and Orks won a few. I think a CSM list got best general one game (Tim Schmidt's), but then so did a mech guard army (Aaron, playing Brian Carlson's guard).

mrwittwer wrote:
First of all, i wasnt insulting you, so please dont insult me. I simply wished to point out how things can be different and if you take offense to that, i am sorry.

I wasn't insulting you either.

And of course i have failed to pop a transport, quite often in fact, thats just how it goes. But that doesnt mean i charge anyways. Just because there is a plan in motion doesnt mean it has to be done. I simply reposition for a better target or take the next best course of action depending on the game. If option A doesnt work then switch to option B. Charging a squad of zerkers into a rhino is a horrible idea. The stuff will get out, shoot and charge. By that point bezerkers are done. Thats like if i was going to eat an apple, but i saw it was rotten, but i decided to eat it anyways because i had planned to eat it. Just doesnt make sense. This is what i mean by strategy, keep a plan in mind of what to do if the first plan doesnt work.

Okay, so, given the choice between having a squad of berserkers (ready to charge a unit that didn't lose its rhino in the shooting phase) sit there doing nothing, or having them charge said rhino, you'd rather have them sit there doing nothing.

This does nothing to the survival chances of the berserkers. If they were in a position to charge the troops in case the rhino popped, then the unit inside the rhino is in position to hit them whether they charge the rhino or not. You had to get the berserkers in position before your heavy support shot at the transport (and failed to hurt it). Clearly you change plans - but your new plan is to sit around and not charge, and not gain any extra distance, and not get any extra chance to hurt anything, while still remaining just as vulnerable as you'd be if you had charged? And you're lecturing on strategy?

Again, I don't mean to insult you, but the idea that you don't assault the rhino in this situation is ridiculous. You're out there, ready to charge something. The only thing to charge is the rhino. You're going to get shot and/or charged regardless.

Thats like if i was going to eat an apple, but i saw it was rotten, but i decided to eat it anyways because i had planned to eat it. Just doesnt make sense.

Well...depends on the point of view...I (being a Nurgle player) approve of following the plan of eating a rotten apple.

But what other plan is there when you have failed to wreck the trasnports and the Zerkers have set up to charge the exitting contents?

Run to cover...and still let the opponent shoot them... not ideal, but prob. better than charge in kill the tank and then get killed in return...but wait, if it's KP, it's better to be even then down by 1.

/shrug...there's really no way around it I guess...when the simple plan fails...it's pretty terminal.