Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

sourclams wrote:Er, you have to be in position to assault before you know whether or not your shooting will disembark the target unit successfully. It's more like deciding to eat an apple and finding out if it's rotten or not after the first bite. You need to commit the squad before you find out if that's beneficial or not.

Well Bezerkers in a landraider have a mimimum 18" assault range. 20" if you count the 2" from getting out of the vehicle. Rhinos have 12" or 14". That leaves me plenty of room to decide where i want to go in either case. And bezerkers most certainly should not be footsloging. While i understand your point, i dont believe you need to fully commit the squad to assault. There is always another option that in most cases is better than assaulting a rhino. If that means pulling back and repositioning or whatever the scenario calls for. It has never happened for me that my 250 point bezerker squad needed to charge a 35 point rhino.

EDIT:

I get what you are now saying redbeard. That you hope to do this all in one turn. Move and get out in movement. Pop transport in shooting. Assault in assault. I should have explained earlier thats not what i usually do. And if i am going to do something like that i only use a melta gun. With ap1 the worst i can roll is a stunned for the more than likely penetrating hit. Or if i am going to do something risky like this, i make sure the target is worth the work of pouring all the needed firepower into it. Whether that be 3 lascannons from oblits and melta guns or whatever it needed.

Since i know zerkers are a one trick pony, i make sure they are assaulting something that is already out of their vehicles. This way if the turn before i dont pop the transports needed, different action is taken with minimum casualties to myself.

Different playstyles we have.

I don't get this thread. Chaos is no where near a second tier army. The latest UK GT results are in and if I recall exactly top two were both CSM Lash lists. I think 5th was a Korne Chaos list. So in no way is CSM second Tier, it's actually one of the stronger armies out there.

@40Ke:

Lash:

Many place them on Princes…those by now are universally known and known how to put down.
As for the Sorc in a cult, I can’t assume that he would be. If you want to make that the point. Lash is good, but it’s been around and people will have experience vs. it. You neglected to address the MSU issue…so you get to lash a small unit and kill it, now you are in range to be shot at. Or you lashed something to shoot at with oblits, but you are not charging in.
You did this from a rhino? That moved only 6” that’s not stunned or shaken?

The advice of "Mech Up" acts like, as Mr.Twitter says, the CSM can't demech enemies just fine.

IMO CSM can NOT demech that quickly, as I assume you are of the opposite thinking. The majority of the AT is short ranged, you need to get there and if the opponent is not interested in approaching you, that’s 2-3 turns to get there, which is 2-3 turns for the opponent to react/gun your guys down.

As for the ranges of nids pychic defense, they get pods for a reason, or Trygon Primes coming out of the ground and such.

Abaddon:

Abaddon is full of fail because he is so costly and has no real good delivery system other than more points.
He’s essentially a basket of eggs.

As for nob bikers, are you using Abby as sort of a counter charge unit, as nob bikers have their own delivery system to either get around abby or go else where and wreck something else.

Chaos Terminators

The problem with termies is that they are ONLY combi-weapon delivery systems.

ICON of Tzeentch is what they can purchase, and that’s just not economical for a Termicide unit to go for an icon.

Stubborn and ATSKNF matters should the termies but used for other roles besides termiciding, which some people do, which IMO includes squads that use any other equipment besides just combi-weapons.

Warptime:

You might have taken a wound on your caster

That was what I meant.

Intense hatred for Lash/Plague Marines/Zerkers/Oblits doesn't mean that they've stopped working

I know it’s not directed at me, but I would just like to say I don’t hate it, it’s just something to expect and is not suprising any more.
Meched up and MSU serve to limit its usefulness as well as up the kill ability of said army against a lasher…it’s just really lackluster these days.

The Chaos Codex is more than viable.

They have arguably the best troops in the entire game, and guess what? If a psychic power changes the worldwide metagame that means it's good.

Berzerkers are amazing, and so are Plague Marines. They're not an "instant win" army anymore, but to say that they aren't competitive is just plain misguided.

@sanc:

Lash: Many don't take them at all, in fact. Folks doing it wrong doesn't stop other folks from doing it right. Sorcerers with wings in vehicles have been the right way to do it for some time now. If the vehicle is shaken they can get out, if the lash is critical, alternatively just he can get out alone, and fly 12" if he needs to (say to get out of a counter-psyker bubble.)

MSU: MSU is self limiting, it loses at KP (1/3 of the time), and it's advantages in multi-objective missions are offset by the inability of it's units to defeat the death stars. In addition, Lash is useful for mitigating MSU issues. Drag another unit over to the one you are about to charge and double kill.

Demech: In your opinion CSM can not demech quickly? Do you have a house rule against using obliterators, combi-meltas on rhinos, termicide units? I literally don't know what you could be thinking of.

Abaddon is...huh? Abaddon is an IC. He gets "delivered" in squads. He can ride in a land raider, teleport in with a termicide unit, or just run up the field with some plague marines. Anything that assaults the CSM army gets counterassaulted by Abaddon.

Terminators: It's perfectly economical to give Terminators an Icon. In fact, most everyone does. Even if you....

This is just silly back and forth now. How about I back my argument up.

Just today the #1 and #2 at the UK GT were Twin Lash CSM. We done here? CSM are top tier, you can tell because they win the big tournaments, which is the definition of a top tier list.

EDIT: @monster: Right on!

Lash:
Unless the lash is critical, getting out means exposure to death, going out alone is almost certain death.

MSU:
Kill points is not a huge issue. By MSU = more damage it works out in the end. This is competitive MSU, not stupid MSU that Tau inherently get with their Devilfish Discs of Death .

DeMech:
Oblits are not cost effective options for AT work and need to approach to be better at it.
Combi-melta rhinos first: have to be taken, and have to get there.
Termicides have to wait til turn 2 to get in, and with the 6" range to get best results are (as said) risk reward.

All of this means low range AT and later game AT. Which is great and all, but just doesn't have any useful until turn 3+...which is where Chaos Shines, but is cutting it close to being too little too late.

Abby:
LR: cost more points on top of his points.
Teleport: that's at least 2 turns not in combat or chancing to come in too late or too early.
Running: turn 3 more likely 4 he'll actually put his points to use.

Abby + LR ~ 500.
Abby + PM slogging ~ 500.
Abby + DS is the most economical, but again, risk/reward with risks being more of a factor.

Termies:
How many termies... termicides (as I think we were on them) are 3-4...their name suggests keeping costs low.

UKGT:
Can't wait to see the bat reps should they come out. Though to be frank, I'm not arguing that they are second tier, I'm just noting that it's not all Rainbows and Lolipops...

Redbeard wrote:

And if the metric to judge the army by is did it win, did Chaos Marines win one? (I honestly don't know). I know that Dark Eldar, Eldar and Orks won a few. I think a CSM list got best general one game (Tim Schmidt's), but then so did a mech guard army (Aaron, playing Brian Carlson's guard).

You have a good point about the guard armies. I won best General with CSM, mostly Berzerkers, the first month. Of course I finished 2nd to last a few months later with the same list, but much more inebriated. You may be right though. IMO we had close to the same people finishing near the top each month with whatever army they brought. Though Tyler was always near the top tables in round 3 and he brought Chaso more often then not I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abbey + LR is just mash. Whole armies must be adjusted to take him under consideration. He might be the ultimate deathstar killer. A few units can slow him down here and there, but for the most part he's worth the points. That LR that's moving him is also moving 8 other guys who can deal damage by themselves. Abbey + 8 Berzerkers is like having 2 guided missiles in one transport. Of all the armies out there, Orks have the toughest time against that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/284231.page


Someone posted about these results, but Chaos took 1st, 2nd and 6th in the UK GT finals. I'm sure there are some obvious variables here that many of us can't quite account for, but one noteworthy point is that these games are only 1500 points. How much, if any, impact does this point value have on armies being played?

Chaos actually has a lot of problems scaling to the lower levels. It's hard to fit in all the tools you need to be effective against all list types in 1500 points.

If, however, you have nothing but melta Marines in rhinos and face predominantly quasi foot lists without significant mech assets, unable to stop you from charging across the table into hand to hand, it can certainly put out a beatdown.

I'd be more interested in what the 3rd, 4th, and 5th place lists were than what the Chaos players fielded.

at 1500, "Mech" isn't as spammy as it can be in 2K point games. In a 2K list you can have as many as 9 tanks, or more. And most of them are transports. At 1500 however, you can only really have 3-4 transports. A squad of oblits can easily break two-three tanks per turn, and at 1500 that's all you need. Then the lash casters can lash assault squads away, and lash shooty troops closer.

sourclams, why didn't you read the first post of the thread to which Sarigar linked?

Blackmoor wrote:This weekend they had the 40k Throne of Skulls GT finals.

For those of you that don’t know, UK GW's GT is 6 games at 1500 points, and you play in 3 “heats” in the fall to qualify for the finals that was held last weekend. There is no comp, no sports and no painting scores so it is battle points with victory points as the tie-breaker.

The results for the top 10 are:
1:Chaos: 2 lash 6 oblit raider army.
2: Chaos: 2 lash 9 oblit army.
3: Space wolves, With 3 rune priests, 2 Squads of long fangs, 4 units of tooled up grey hunters.
4: Space Marines
5: Necrons: Lord on destroyer, 6 wraiths, monolith, 5 destroyers, 7 immortals, some warriors.
6: Chaos: Khorne daemon prince, 2 raiders, 2 rhinos, 3 units of zerkers + Khorne terminators
7: Chaos Daemons: Fate Crusher
8: Orks
9: Orks
10: Eldar

They had a lot better spread of armies that they have had in the past, Lash Chaos is still a very good combo no matter how people say that Mech stop it (the oblits and just blast you out of your tanks).

The tyranid codex is still new, and there were only 2 tyranid players there that finished in the middle of the pack.

There were 2 surprises though. The first is that there was no IG in the top 10. Maybe it is not as good at 1500 points. The other surprise was that there was a necron player in the top 10, which goes to show you that every codex has a list that can win if you are good enough player.



Note:
Taken from this article:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=69412
Thanks to Tange for the results.

sourclams wrote:Chaos actually has a lot of problems scaling to the lower levels. It's hard to fit in all the tools you need to be effective against all list types in 1500 points.

This is not directed at Sourclams exclusively, but more as a general statement towards this type of thinking I see more and more of.

Why are we continueing to ignore reality? Is our big fish in a small pond syndrome really this advanced? Chaos won the top 2 spots at a 100+ person, 6 game tournament in which each player needed to advance from 2 other tournaments to even get into. I read through the 8 pages on the original site leading to the tournament and some of the guys who finished in the middle of the pack were fielding some of the internets finest spam machines.

At what point does the constant clatter on the internet about so called super lists finally die in the face of tabletop reality that those lists aren't all that? and some of the lists these internet people think are bunk, actually do work? Don't tell us about what you think should work, like Blackmoor, show us on the tabletop.

I think the hard reality is that the best 40k players can take most lists they are familiar with and do quite well. Eventually people will come to the realization that it is not the list, but the player. If foot eldar do well, it's because that player knows what he's doing, to many times some people are quick to judge the opponent as being bad when it is not the case. The guy they played against was just better.

Well said DarthDiggler. I see no further need for more debate on this topic and quite frankly its getting boring. Ok, Chaos may become less strong due to future codex releases but if playing with a competative build it will always remain competative.

They came 1st and second in the GT as pointed out by myself and others, what more do you want? lol.

Nuff said.

One would think so, but usually at this point in the conversation some bright fellow tries to dredge up something to try and mitigate the evidence staring them in the face.

Speaking of axes to grind, anyone else notice that the winning Chaos Space Marine army had fewer Obliterators? Eh? Eh?

Well, as beaten into pulp as it is, oblits are still good, just not the be all and end all.

Just that they are there says much. I use a max of 6 for other reasons besides competitivity...

I'd like to see a description of the list that is just "marines" but a friend of mine fielded a SW list that had 77 marines in it at 1500, with 3 units of ML long-fangs, and 2 runepriests, making me think that the SW list was not as efficient as it should be.

Is it even worth mentioning that entry to the UK GTs is also made possible by Best Paint and Sportsmanship scores?

Speaking of axes to grind, anyone else notice that the winning Chaos Space Marine army had fewer Obliterators? Eh? Eh?

The natural conclusion being that Oblits are necessary for a competitive Chaos list?

^ You win a pat on the back.
But I'm sure an Inquisitor like you would hate to be patted by a Plague Terminator like me...

How consistant is chaos on top.
This might say alot, but at the same time it might not say anything as the sample set is just one GT, or just 6 games. 6/6 is nice, but is just past a handful of games.

I think winning a 6-game event is more conclusive than a 3-game event. It's still a small sample, but considerably larger than most 3-4 game tourneys.

What I think detracts from the veracity of the results is that the guys who "made it" aren't just the top 3 generals from the previous heats, but also the Best Sportsmanship and Best Painted folks, too. It all goes back to GTs being hobby events, not tournaments.

IMO Chaos Marines is still top tier. The wins for the UK GT prove it. Where Chaos has issues is in the US Comp tournaments where dual lash or oblit spam will get you a terrible comp and make it difficult to win overall at a GT since you most likely need to win all your games and sometimes you just lose a game because of bad die rolls.

DarthDiggler gets a wholehearted salute from me. This sums up the way I feel completely. I believe that to a fairly large extent, skill trumps build. Sure, both may be important, but if your nice ass-hammer build gets suddenly faced down by a perfect counter-build, a player with no skill will undoubtedly be crushed mercilessly. However, a player with skill would be able to adapt and use his army as best as he can.

Er, the point to an all-comers army (the goal for "competitive" list builders) is that there *is* no perfect counter-build. No matter what you end up fighting, you have sufficient tools to deal, and skill more than list is the deciding factor.

Apparently the winning army wasn't Chaos at all, but was actually SM and accidentally listed as Chaos? Not sure what this means for this discussion, but I'll just put that out here.

If true, it means the last 10 posts just got a little hilarious.

I blame 'count as'.

Or it could be a missing colon. I blame Slaanesh.

Er, the point to an all-comers army (the goal for "competitive" list builders) is that there *is* no perfect counter-build. No matter what you end up fighting, you have sufficient tools to deal, and skill more than list is the deciding factor.

True, that's a damn good point. I'm glad that we do agree that skill is more important than list, though.

Or it could be a missing colon. I blame Slaanesh.

Slaanesh would be more than happy to accept the blame for that, rest assured.

Or did you mean the punctuation mark? My bad.

Ludovic wrote:Or it could be a missing colon. I blame Slaanesh.

Oh snap! I see what you did there. Or maybe I read too far into it. Either way, my wife asked me what I was chuckling about.

We need a Doomrider pic like...right now with 'Ziiiinnggg' written all over it.......

schadenfreude wrote:Thoughts on blood angels.

Mepheston has no Invo and lacks eternal warrior. That leaves him highly vulnerable to non toughness insta death such as wraith cannons, The Swarmlord, and Boneswords. Most Nid warriors with boneswords also have poison attacks. It also leaves him partially vulnerable to warptime +force weapons, but I say partially vulnerable because he has a psychic hood. Thunder hammer terminators will also smash his face, so he's really not that great against tyranids and regular codex marines. He can give chaos some problems, but his vulnerability to tryanids, eldar, and codex marines means he will have definite downsides in a tournament setting.

Partially vulnerable to warp time and force weapons?

Warp time + force weapon means it's a Tzeentch sorcerer. That means Mephiston is going first. Mephiston will be S10 with higher WS and 5 attacks. A single wound will kill the sorcerer. Now, assume Mephiston doesn't kill the sorcerer. He casts warp time, doesn't get it cancelled, and then with his 4 attacks, gets 2 hits. You're hoping that one of four dice [including rerolls] is a 6, which is far from a guarantee. THEN you're hoping that you can pass another test, and that it doesn't get canceled as well.

Instant death versus wraith cannons......right. I see those ALL the time.

Swarmlord... Did you really let the swarmlord get into combat?

Warriors....you realize Mephiston will always go first, be S10, and insta-kill them right? You hope you get the wound with those boneswords, because if you don't [or he just passes his Ld test, it's not impossible] you'll be losing combat by like 9-12.


This little mini-rant aside, I'm appalled how many people still sing the praises of obliterators. They're.....good? More reliable than a defiler? Ok fine. But their nerf down to S4 T4 while increasing cost just makes me gag when I take them. For their cost they need to be 3 wounds, T4(5), T5, Feel no pain, or preferably some combination of two of those.

Reducing points cost alone is NOT a fix to a lot of those units. Possessed are random and can't take a power weapon on the champion [to give at least SOME guarantee on reliability]. Any points spent on a unit that I don't know what I'll be using it for until after the game starts is crap. Lesser daemons can cost as little as they want - if all they do is cause me to lose combats by more, they're a detriment and unless they cost negative points, aren't worth it. Some other units, sure less points would do them well. PM should be less. Berserkers should be less. Compare khorne berserkers to the new death company and you'll see the same problem that CSM versus grey hunters have - one unit is obviously superior, but costs the same or less. "But Death Company aren't scoring" screw that. If I can wipe an enemy's scoring unit off the table, or a unit of theirs that was going to kill one of my scoring units, then that non-scoring unit has done FINE. Whether a unit is scoring or not shouldn't affect its points cost.

Vanguard Vets weren't the end-all be-all in the SM codex because they were expensive and limited. Now with BA you can buff them with FNP and Furious Charge, making them MUCH more worthwhile. Their deepstrike and assault may also come with only a 1d6 scatter too, allowing you to get much closer to the enemy. CSM don't have anything that will come from an unexpected quarter and mess with your stuff aside from some weak, small-numbers deepstriking units like oblits or terminators that you hope do what you want them to do.