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This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

I believe that a Chaos-Lash list won Adepticon this year, too...at least, that's what I gather from the thread about Adepticon in the Tournaments forum.

@Spellbound:

I'm appalled how many people still sing the praises of obliterators. They're.....good? More reliable than a defiler? Ok fine. But their nerf down to S4 T4 while increasing cost just makes me gag when I take them. For their cost they need to be 3 wounds, T4(5), T5, Feel no pain, or preferably some combination of two of those.

The fluff (now) matches the 'techmarine' background, hence the stat downgrade.
In addition, there was no point to T5 as people in the past assigned instant death weapons onto them anyway. 3.0 Dex was pure T5 then updated to 3.5 where it was RAI/RAW T4(5).
Str 10 powerfist was nifty, but oblits were not likely to be in combat so was moot.
For the cost, it makes sense, you pay for the versitility and the priviledge to use the Plasma Cannon or Multi-melta... cause there's only 2 platforms in which they exist in the Chaos Space Marine army, and the other one sometimes shoots your guys.

Reducing points cost alone is NOT a fix to a lot of those units. Possessed are random and can't take a power weapon on the champion [to give at least SOME guarantee on reliability]. Any points spent on a unit that I don't know what I'll be using it for until after the game starts is crap. Lesser daemons can cost as little as they want - if all they do is cause me to lose combats by more, they're a detriment and unless they cost negative points, aren't worth it.

Possessed are fine and functional. Reliability? How is it not reliable now? Pick a role and stick with it, 5/6 times it will be something to help them into or in combat. 1/6 makes them a distraction…easy to use IMO.
The idea is to have possessed be different than to another squad of MEQ with hidden special weapon. Rules wise they are fine, just expensive for what they do (which is counter attack)

Lesser Daemons: are functional as well, I can’t tell you the number of times opponents hate seeing my lesser daemons, few want to deal with a single 20 man squad…which don’t cost all that much more than like a moderately equipped tactical squad.

I just think the majority of people don’t use them and hence don’t have the proper attitude and expectations of them. Which is why I say that only the points are ‘wrong’ with those choices, they are functional on the table and do well enough with the rules they have now.

Plague marines less? I don’t know, they are still 1 point undercosted, even after the FNP balance.

Don’t Death Company have rage…sucks when they have to chase a speeder…which was what old World Eater had to do But I won’t discuss zerkers in length as I don’t have more experience with them.

As for:

CSM don't have anything that will come from an unexpected quarter and mess with your stuff

My 20 man lesser daemon squad has done just that. Coming in and messing stuff up.
You just don't see 60 attacks coming out of nowhere in the CSM dex other than from lesser deamons.

As for termies, 5 Combi-plasma Termies have done well enough to mess things up, but yea Vanguard Vets of the BA are nice, obviously new Codicies will be cool/nifty and GW went onto the force multipler bandwagon way after the initial 4th/5th ed Codicies like CSM/Eldar.

We work with what we have. With respect to the CSM codex viewed by itself, all the units are functional and the issue is just cost IMO...(and then other things like fluff could use some work and the legions thing)

olympia wrote:This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

Would you care to elaborate your position? Pre-Leafblower tournaments don't count fyi. Do you have the battlereports for cet tournies? I'd be amazed to see how these chaos lists didn't get massacred using abbadon and a lash prince at 1750.

1500-1750 is the optimal power level point range for CSM. You can just squeeze in 2 lash + 9 oblits at that point level.
Believe me go 2000+ i.e. 'ard boz and CSM really show their weaknesses.

Weakness of options more specifically

Sanctjud wrote:@Spellbound:
Lesser Daemons: are functional as well, I can’t tell you the number of times opponents hate seeing my lesser daemons, few want to deal with a single 20 man squad…which don’t cost all that much more than like a moderately equipped tactical squad.

I just think the majority of people don’t use them and hence don’t have the proper attitude and expectations of them. Which is why I say that only the points are ‘wrong’ with those choices, they are functional on the table and do well enough with the rules they have now.

As for:

CSM don't have anything that will come from an unexpected quarter and mess with your stuff

My 20 man lesser daemon squad has done just that. Coming in and messing stuff up.
You just don't see 60 attacks coming out of nowhere in the CSM dex other than from lesser deamons.

We work with what we have. With respect to the CSM codex viewed by itself, all the units are functional and the issue is just cost IMO...(and then other things like fluff could use some work and the legions thing)

Indeed, I can not stress the number of times that summoning a screen of daemons to allow my guys to get the charge on Orks and Nids has saved my bacon. Or dropping in a unit of Raptors who clear out a unit and then summon up a unit of daemons, allowing my army to advance unmolested

Even though its not night lordy, Im going to try some daemons next game, along with some bikes. Do you use one or two squads of 20?

All CSM players fail, just because this is the first time your army is not ('') any more.

Orks were 9pts each in their last codex and had no gun and a 6+sv, they had to make orks cheaper or up them to 15pts like CSM and give them a +3 save and a bolter, bolt pistol and ccw, and even with my BS2 and STR3 that would STILL be AWESOME!!

Even now that Orks are 6pts i still look at 10 CSM and think; *will i make it, they have 8 bolters 1 ML with frag (you can't miss 20 or 30 orks) plus a bolt pistol and ccw and what ever the AC has*.

I then think about a trukk's good APC armor 10 and opened top... how could that fail.. wait.. bolters can hurt that and the ML has a krak shot. (!)

Ok ok what if i get a grot unit to stand in front of the orks (this is called a tactic, something CSM players don't have), but what if they have the psychic power lash like every CSM army? Well i'll just have to hope they use it to lash my Mega Nobs into the lascannons the Obliterators have, so they can die with no save.

This never really happens as all CSM players don't have any skill and don't use tactics, they just copy the other CSM player's that are older (although not any wiser) and take 2 melta guns and go tank hunting. They move forward 1st turn and i waaagh charge them 2nd turn after the grots get out of the way.

Also Abaddon the Despoiler is 2nd only to Great Overlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka as the best IC in 40k.

Really? I beg to differ Orks are just spam spam SPAM. Atleast all the ork armies I've ever seen.

Chaos can be shooty, super at CC or a mix of both. And were still winning tournys last I checked.

Orks: Take lotsa boyz and lootas

CSM: Take lotsa plauge marines and oblits

At least, that's the point I THINK he was trying to make, couldn't really figure it out through bad grammar.

Orks don't have much of a choice on the spam issue Shadowbrand, seeing as how they've only got two troops choices. CSMs have 5 (I think 6 if you count daemons).

I like what Darth said though, about people winning with lists they know. people who know their army list inside and out will do better than someone with a new army. There's a guy in our area who does really well with nids, he's been playing nids for a while, and he's figured out how to work his army, even after the new codex.

never seen one in my life time

everything in the ork army is good. the only army that sucks is necrons. my mate now has to plays 3 Monoliths andhe wins every game.
he is not having a cry about it. i have a 3.5ed book or 4ed the poor guy still has a 3ed book.

Vache Glace wrote:Pre-Leafblower tournaments don't count fyi. Do you have the battlereports for cet tournies? I'd be amazed to see how these chaos lists didn't get massacred using abbadon and a lash prince at 1750.

1500-1750 is the optimal power level point range for CSM. You can just squeeze in 2 lash + 9 oblits at that point level.
Believe me go 2000+ i.e. 'ard boz and CSM really show their weaknesses.

The leafblower thing is blown way out of proportion. Have you read the battle reports from Ard Boyz about that army? He got lucky in a lot of ways. I don't mind the idea of the leafblower list, frankly. I'd love to see a bunch of people slap them together and show up to Ard Boyz with brand new lists that they are unfamiliar with. Please God!

I couldn't disagree more with your bit about CSM being weak at 'Ard Boyz.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:everything in the ork army is good.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:everything in the ork army is good.

Meh, that's like saying everything in the Eldar army is good, and it's like saying everything in the Chaos army is good. When it's clear that while there's nothing really truly bad, some units are VERY sub par for the points (like defilers, dark reapers, and flash gitz).

^ That... throw in Shining Spears, Hawks, Phoenix Lords, Vypers, Spawn, Possessed, Lesser Daemons, etc.

Every Codex has its ups and downs.

Vache Glace wrote:
Lash:

Some people rely on lash as a crutch to win but I believe it should be used as a supportive weapon to increase the effectiveness with the rest of your army. However the recent shift in the meta game towards uber-mech and uber-psychic defense has made lash pretty much useless. For example: I recently played in a three game tournament and I only successfully casted lash once using double lash princes. Newer codexes now have ways of getting a ton of vehicles (IG, Orks) or have ways of crippling lash’s effectiveness via psychic negation or making lash more difficult to cast (SW, C:SM, Tyranids, Eldar and soon to be BA). Lash is a great ability but the fact that everyone else has changed while CSM has stayed the same has rendered it largely ineffective. The problem is CSM are forced to still use this HQ simply because there are very few other viable options.


Mechanization and Melta-Spam:

I covered this a bit in the Lash section but the fact that armies can take so many vehicles that have so many always of ignoring your attacks makes CSM effectiveness at killing vehicles quite poor. (i.e. Flat Out, KFF, Stones, soon to be BA skimmer, etc.) It seems like the meta is forcing you to spam as much melta as possible so you can kill these vehicles (this is obviously a double edged sword). Take too many melta and you are open to getting trainwrecked by horde armies. However if you don’t take a ton of melta you pretty much autolose against Landraider spam or IG Leafblower. This makes unit selections and winning tournaments seem like a craps shoot. (Yes I know obliterators are good against almost anything; they are also quite squishy)


Troops:

Chaos troops, albeit versatile, are very expensive. They pretty much need a rhino so they can get anywhere and so they can survive one round of shooting. This = 1 more easy KP.


Mobility:

CSM obviously suffer from a lack of mobility (as do mostly all MEQs). How am I ever going to hold multiple objectives if my troops get into a tarpit CC 2nd turn or their rhinos get lascannoned to oblivion turn 1? I’ve used a lot of reserves, Dsing, outflanking to try and combat this but this is generally to no avail.

So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack

and

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:All CSM players fail. Just because this is the first time your army is not ('') any more.

Chaos were never all cheese. Oblit/plaguemarine/lash spam is a combo that works effectively and its easy to use. Thats why many new and old CSM players adopted this strategy. The skilled CSM players went from there to make better lists. I have never played this tactic and most CSM players on this forum, as far as i can tell, dont play it either. Frankly its boring, its easy to beat if you know what to do, and CSM have far better options for play styles. Also comparing Orks to CSM really isnt a good method at all. In fact comparing Ork codex to CSM Codex is irrelevant all together as the styles of both books are completely different. Im not sure who you are playing but i do feel sorry for them to have to play against you.

sonsoftaurus wrote:
So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack

and

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

I like this quote...but it actually does compute, if you throw in one extra thing, range

inside 12", chaos is very good at breaking transports. Chaos is actually really strong inside that range (most marine armies are) the problem is as soon as you get out to even 24", almost every army can out-shoot you. The only way to solve this is with smoke, but even that's only a temporary solution.

Most battles with chaos involve the chaos army trying to get inside 12" where their troops are better with boltguns/meltaguns/flamers or pistol/charge (or daemonbomb), and the other army either trying to get there first or trying to stay outside that 12" range and dodging lascannon fire from the chaos HS.

sonsoftaurus wrote:

So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack


2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

1) You're oversimplifying mechanization as a whole. A lot of mech is too far too tough to crack (see Landraiders, Trukks, Waveserpents, etc.) especially for CSM, who as starbomber mentioned, need to be within 6" to be even remotely effective at killing vehicles. The other problem CSM have is that they generally hold too many eggs in 1 basket. Armies with more target saturation i.e. IG chimera/valk spam requires chaos to shoot all their guns at 1 target whereas IG can spread out their firepower to be more effective.

2) For chaos yes this is the case. Rhinos are very easy to kill and are generally used only as mobile pieces of terrain. CSM do have trouble fighting mechanization and wielding it.

I think you misread my arguments. What I was trying to say was that:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack for Chaos' Offense

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP for Chaos' Defense

The two statements are by no means contradicting one another.

Vache Glace wrote:

sonsoftaurus wrote:

So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack


2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

1) You're oversimplifying mechanization as a whole. A lot of mech is too far too tough to crack (see Landraiders, Trukks, Waveserpents, etc.) especially for CSM, who as starbomber mentioned, need to be within 6" to be even remotely effective at killing vehicles. The other problem CSM have is that they generally hold too many eggs in 1 basket. Armies with more target saturation i.e. IG chimera/valk spam requires chaos to shoot all their guns at 1 target whereas IG can spread out their firepower to be more effective.

2) For chaos yes this is the case. Rhinos are very easy to kill and are generally used only as mobile pieces of terrain. CSM do have trouble fighting mechanization and wielding it.

I think you misread my arguments. What I was trying to say was that:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack for Chaos' Offense

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP for Chaos' Defense

The two statements are by no means contradicting one another.

Yeah, they totally are in contradiction.

Chaos are just as able to field a Mech army as anyone. And guess what? Another army that's mech is just as KP heavy as a Chaos army that's mech.

And to say that they can't deal with an opponent's mechanized force is just completely unfounded in reality. Havocs, Defilers and Obliterators... not to mention CSM with Heavy Weapons are more than capable of popping Rhinos and Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

mrwittwer wrote:The skilled CSM players went from there to make better lists.

This is the key. If you're looking for the broken uber list, Chaos can't help you anymore. If you know how to play and maybe are any sort of tactician, the CSM codex can be your ticket to victorious tournament glory.

Trukks are hard to crack?

the_ferrett wrote:Trukks are hard to crack?

Yeah they are. Especially with Reaper Autocannons and Melta Guns!

You wouldn't believe how tough Raiders are in 5th Ed!

the_ferrett wrote:Trukks are hard to crack?

srry I meant to include Trukks in the target saturation part of my rant.

Monster Rain wrote:

Yeah, they totally are in contradiction.

Chaos are just as able to field a Mech army as anyone. And guess what? Another army that's mech is just as KP heavy as a Chaos army that's mech.

Wrong. Wave Serpents, Landraiders, new BA soon to be released flyer, etc. have far more survivability and don't give up their KPs nearly as easily. Most Chaos players I've met don't go nearly as mech heavy as the current meta suggests.

I'm not disagreeing that the sentence "1 ) Mech is too tough to crack and 2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP" isn't contradictory it's just that's not what I said. Please re-read my arguments. Chaos 1) have difficulty destroying vehicles at long range, 2) have easily killed vehicles that rarely win their points back. I fail to see how that's contradictory. The statement should have been "1) Chaos has a tough time destroying their enemies mechanized forces and 2) Chaos' mech is easily killed" (Note I said Chaos Not IG, Not SM, Not SW, Not Eldar, Not even Necrons, I am not talking about mech in general just Chaos' mech) My original post was not contradicting itself.

Monster Rain wrote:
And to say that they can't deal with an opponent's mechanized force is just completely unfounded in reality. Havocs, Defilers and Obliterators... not to mention CSM with Heavy Weapons are more than capable of popping Rhinos and Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

Ugh, did you even read my post? I said at range they have a lot of difficulty shooting down mech. Do you seriously think Havocs and Defilers can shoot down mech efficiently anymore? Defilers die turn 1/2 max, havocs get 1 round of shooting (likely at an obscured/popped smoked/flat out) before they get blasted by the enemy force or get locked up in CC. I think obliterators are very good but if you footslog them they get killed quite easily and DSing usually only equals 1 round of shooting before they get countercharged or plasma'd/lascannoned to death with ease.

Vache Glace wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
And to say that they can't deal with an opponent's mechanized force is just completely unfounded in reality. Havocs, Defilers and Obliterators... not to mention CSM with Heavy Weapons are more than capable of popping Rhinos and Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

Ugh, did you even read my post? I said at range they have a lot of difficulty shooting down mech. Do you seriously think Havocs and Defilers can shoot down mech efficiently anymore? Defilers die turn 1/2 max, havocs get 1 round of shooting (likely at an obscured/popped smoked/flat out) before they get blasted by the enemy force or get locked up in CC. I think obliterators are very good but if you footslog them they get killed quite easily and DSing usually only equals 1 round of shooting before they get countercharged or plasma'd/lascannoned to death with ease.

Yes, I think think that Autocannons, Lascannons, Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers are good at destroying transports.

Land Raiders are tough to kill, yes. They're also 250ish points.

I believe that the current CSM Codex is abit outdated with all the new SM Codex ( Space Wolves and Blood Angel) have better opinions, that could nellified all PYSC powers that CSM can throw. Another thing that CSM does not have is a good Fast Attack Slot at all. I had to really switch the way i play and even had to bring back my Dark Eldar Army out of the closet, just to stay competitive. I really believe that CSM should either break the current Codex and made each chapter to their own Codex, or GW should bring back 4th edition CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

The funny thing is that all the winners are from Europe and not from the States. I do agree that CSM can place in a touranment maybe last year, but the this year CSM really haven't place in the top 10. CSM needs a major overhaul.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I believe that the current CSM Codex is abit outdated with all the new SM Codex ( Space Wolves and Blood Angel) have better opinions, that could nellified all PYSC powers that CSM can throw. Another thing that CSM does not have is a good Fast Attack Slot at all. I had to really switch the way i play and even had to bring back my Dark Eldar Army out of the closet, just to stay competitive. I really believe that CSM should either break the current Codex and made each chapter to their own Codex, or GW should bring back 4th edition CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

The funny thing is that all the winners are from Europe and not from the States. I do agree that CSM can place in a touranment maybe last year, but the this year CSM really haven't place in the top 10. CSM needs a major overhaul.

This is because the vast majority of U.S. tournament are softcoring affairs. When the majority of large tournaments in the U.S. are free of softscores then feel free to lecture about which codices are or are not competitive.

Just going to chime in quickly....because this thread is utter rubbish.


If all you want to is play a competitive army, and take a dump on the fluff, go play FOTM. Thats why it exists.

If you like CSM make em work. If you cant, you cant play.

Poker is not gambling, because its more than random cards, since it also includes playing your opponents.

Same is true for 40k, if you cant play your opponent youre already losing. Sun Tzu already said that eons ago.

I could switch to Space Wolves, i can even sub the fluff in so it works. I wont cause i like the icon system way too much, i rely on 4x special weapon havocs, and i wont give up my cult troops. Cause zerkers rock face if played right.


Play like youve got a pair, (yeah i know thats ripped from Warmachine ^^) and win, dont play the defensive line, cause then you can go back to playing puny loyalist swines.

Rant off. I like my CSM, they fit my playstyle, and i dont have a problem with using em.

Look, The arguments on both sides can be summed up thusly.

Pro CSM: Evidence

Anti CSM: Theory

This thread was over 3 pages ago when the UK GT results came out. Olympia put the F-ing lid on the casket and launched it into space with the tourney results. CSM are at least top tier, maybe best overall.

That's just the way the record stands now though. Anti-CSM, Adepticon is in 6 days. Let's see the strength of whatever you think the top tier is. You think there's been a sea change, prove it.

The Chaos codex came out...then everything after that has been geared toward beating it more or less.

As to the "cheese" factor of Lash, I'm f-ing sick of people complaining about it. I bought the codex the first day it came out, and then bought a DP to convert, and termies to convert to oblits. Never went on the forums to hear what was good. Its not cheese its called tactics.

mr wittwer post your army list. i know it will have 2/3 units of Oblit/plaguemarine/lash spam