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40kenthusiast wrote:
That's just the way the record stands now though. Anti-CSM, Adepticon is in 6 days. Let's see the strength of whatever you think the top tier is. You think there's been a sea change, prove it.

Is Adepticon a softscoring 'hobbyist' tournament? Is there comp?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looked at the rules for Adepticon--39% soft scores! At least no com, although given that sports is judged by your opponent you risk being chipmunked on this if you bring two lash.

40kenthusiast wrote:Look, The arguments on both sides can be summed up thusly.

Pro CSM: Evidence

Anti CSM: Theory

This thread was over 3 pages ago when the UK GT results came out. Olympia put the F-ing lid on the casket and launched it into space with the tourney results. CSM are at least top tier, maybe best overall.

That's just the way the record stands now though. Anti-CSM, Adepticon is in 6 days. Let's see the strength of whatever you think the top tier is. You think there's been a sea change, prove it.

Solid proof always does make for a good argument. I too am curious as to how CSM will fare. Without a doubt there has been change, but that doesnt mean CSM is not top tier.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:mr wittwer post your army list. i know it will have 2/3 units of Oblit/plaguemarine/lash spam

I think i have already stated in this thread i have never played a lash list, and i do not make this a proud fact i just never wanted to.

If you want to know why i never played a lash list, i dont like the dependence of the list being built around one psyker power, especially with all the anti-psyker gear. I dont believe chaos sorcerers to be a playable unit by any means, and my daemon princes will not be wasted moving units. I also dont have the models to play that kind of a list.

I do however use a 3 man unit of Obliterators, and a 10 man unit of plague marines. I am not going to post my whole list as that is irrelevant to this discussion.

I'll bite, here's my list breakdown:

1850:

2x flying lash princes

2x Noisemarine squads, Doomsiren champions in combi-melta rhinos

2x 2x melta CSM squads in combi-melta rhinos

1x 2x plasma CSM squad in combi-melta rhino

2x defilers w/ extra ccw, t/l heavy flamer

3x oblits.

2000:

Add in greater daemon and aspiring champions for food

2500:
drop greater daemon, add:

2x 5x melta chosen squads in combi-Plasmagun rhinos

additional Noisemarine squad as above in combi-melta rhino,

Dreadnought or 3-man termicide squad.



The synergy between lash and <insert template weapon here> is impossible to ignore. That's like accusing Blood Angels of being cheesy by including Sanguinary Priests to give their forces FNP - it's what they do.

I stand by my statement on Oblits though - they are not tough enough for what you pay. Techmarine statline? Who the hell cares? Chaplain Cassius is T6 because he has a metal face, why wouldn't a techmarine become super tough by being melded with a daemon after putting on terminator armour?

Meh. Oblits are tough enough. With two wounds and the prevalence of Cover Saves even a few Lascannon shots are going to be wasted taking down a squad of 3.

Chaplain Cassius is T6 because there has to be a fluff justification for why he's still alive after a brood of Carnifexes had their way with him!

No, there doesn't. Mephiston died fighting, he just got back up. T5 would suffice. Feel no Pain would suffice. He gets T6 and FNP and costs just over 100 points, while retaining the abilities to make a squad fearless and deadly on the charge, his 4+ invul [note: better than an oblit], a master-crafted combi-flamer [same as a twin-linked flamer], and a power weapon.

As tough as 2 terminators to S7 and below weapons is not tough enough for something that costs as much as 2.5 of them. I'd be willing to pay 80 to get S5 T5 and FNP on them, but for 75 I definitely want the S and at least T4(5).

The OP and most of the other whiners in this thread should just pack up their minis, and go home crying to their mommas.

That said, GT is a bunch of crap. If you read some of the battle reports, it's a "circle-jerk soft-score let's all play nice and love each other up the butt" tournament like every other big 40K event. The real competitive value of armies is set by your own group of gamers. If you think Chaos is second tier, then it just means you're the second tier player among your group. Sucks for you, but truth always hurts.

@Billie-Joe:
The weakness of the codex in the hobby is that people around the world all isolated end up putting together the same list as everyone else......there is a problem with that IMO.

Sadly, my list is 2 princes (no lash), 3 squads of plaues in rhinos, and 2 squads of 3 oblits.

Very sad as that is the list I came up maybe 2 days after the codex came out. It wrecked face so much everybody groins when playing against it, but it's really not hard to beat...it is inflexible to adapt to new situations and is essentially a good hammer/anvil, with all the pros and cons associated to it.

The codex is weak in my eyes due to the lack of options. Hell, I run a biker army now, the theme is still Chaos, but I'm essentially forced to use Loyalist rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been so bored with the competitive options I've even lost my mind to actually try and make work: spawn, dreads, possessed, lesser daemons, and other traditionally crap choices........

Monster Rain wrote:
Yes, I think think that Autocannons, Lascannons, Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers are good at destroying transports

It's not the weapons themselves that are bad it's the units that field them. Defilers usually die turn 1/2 max and rarely win their points back. Havocs aren't very good either. Say you go first, it's unlikely that your Havocs will be able to see or shoot aything due to enemy positioning so they move up. Next turn they get 1 volley at a smoked/obscured/flat out vehicle that is nowhere near their point investement. Next turn they are either engulfed in CC or have been steamrolled by any decent shooting. Havocs are really only good against footslogging armies or if you need to kill low AV tanks like DE. If your opponent knows about how good Obliterators can be they will focus on them and usually kill them turn 1/2 or is they DS they will be swarmed or nuked after 1 volley.

Terminus wrote:The OP and most of the other whiners in this thread should just pack up their minis, and go home crying to their mommas.

That said, GT is a bunch of crap. If you read some of the battle reports, it's a "circle-jerk soft-score let's all play nice and love each other up the butt" tournament like every other big 40K event. The real competitive value of armies is set by your own group of gamers. If you think Chaos is second tier, then it just means you're the second tier player among your group. Sucks for you, but truth always hurts.

Why don't you contribute something important to the discussion instead of just trolling. Saying someone sucks just becuase they make a reasonable thread with a reasonable set of arguments is lame. I've actually won 3 out of the 6 tournaments at my FLGS (it's kinda new) using CSM. There are no soft scores and the missions are pretty tame. This might be because of the meta in the area. It's just that for the last little while (post IG-SW-Tyranids) I barely get to use Lash, almost screwed if I don't get 1st turn, and face lots of armies that Chaos have a very difficult time dealing with.

Vache Glace wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

It's not the weapons themselves that are bad it's the units that field them. Defilers usually die turn 1/2 max and rarely win their points back. Havocs aren't very good either. Say you go first, it's unlikely that your Havocs will be able to see or shoot aything due to enemy positioning so they move up. Next turn they get 1 volley at a smoked/obscured/flat out vehicle that is nowhere near their point investement. Next turn they are either engulfed in CC or have been steamrolled by any decent shooting. Havocs are really only good against footslogging armies or if you need to kill low AV tanks like DE. If your opponent knows about how good Obliterators can be they will focus on them and usually kill them turn 1/2 or is they DS they will be swarmed or nuked after 1 volley.

Havocs cost less than Oblits, have more wounds for the points and get more (at least double) shots, not counting enemies in Bolter range. In addition that stray Lascannon shot only kills one instead of insta-killing one. Hardly call that bad. The only vehicles they wouldn't get their points back shooting are landspeeders and rhinos? I agree the CSM Dex lacks a good source of Dakka but havocs are the best we got IMO (in addition to being able to be a really fun assault unit with 4 flamers; uber cheap and uber good at what they do).

Sanctjud wrote:everybody groins when playing against it,

I lol'd.

sourclams wrote:For the record, the "competitive" CSM build is your favorite variation of 'Bunch of troops in rhinos, 3 Heavy fire support units, and maybe 3 elites or something because in general the rest of the codex isn't as good as its Troops slots'.

If you're trying to run competitive CSM, it's going to be a rhino-rush wall of manpower.

This is what has killed CSM for me. Every game seems to be, indeed, favourite variation of "bunch of troops in rhino's, 3 Heavy slots filled since the troops can't bring in any heavy fire effectively, 3 elites since FA is 'meh' ". Just a lack of variation of viable things to do... So now i work away on my Khorne army (counts as SW) :(

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:

It's not the weapons themselves that are bad it's the units that field them. Defilers usually die turn 1/2 max and rarely win their points back. Havocs aren't very good either. Say you go first, it's unlikely that your Havocs will be able to see or shoot aything due to enemy positioning so they move up. Next turn they get 1 volley at a smoked/obscured/flat out vehicle that is nowhere near their point investement. Next turn they are either engulfed in CC or have been steamrolled by any decent shooting. Havocs are really only good against footslogging armies or if you need to kill low AV tanks like DE. If your opponent knows about how good Obliterators can be they will focus on them and usually kill them turn 1/2 or is they DS they will be swarmed or nuked after 1 volley.

Havocs cost less than Oblits, have more wounds for the points and get more (at least double) shots, not counting enemies in Bolter range. In addition that stray Lascannon shot only kills one instead of insta-killing one. Hardly call that bad. The only vehicles they wouldn't get their points back shooting are landspeeders and rhinos? I agree the CSM Dex lacks a good source of Dakka but havocs are the best we got IMO (in addition to being able to be a really fun assault unit with 4 flamers; uber cheap and uber good at what they do).

Thank you for forming an informed rebuttle to my point. Posts like yours are actually constructive.

I think I might be changing my mind on this topic. CSM might be the bottom of the first tier but most likely the very top of the second.

Edited for quoting issues

Vache Glace wrote:Why don't you contribute something important to the discussion instead of just trolling. Saying someone sucks just becuase they make a reasonable thread with a reasonable set of arguments is lame. I've actually won 3 out of the 6 tournaments at my FLGS (it's kinda new) using CSM. There are no soft scores and the missions are pretty tame. This might be because of the meta in the area. It's just that for the last little while (post IG-SW-Tyranids) I barely get to use Lash, almost screwed if I don't get 1st turn, and face lots of armies that Chaos have a very difficult time dealing with.

Why don't you stop being a little girl with her panties all a-twisted?

Chaos is not weak, it's just boring because of very limited competitive options. Boring != weak. The fact that Chaos manages to place so highly in GT tournaments despite soft scores (because the typical lash-prince/plague marines/obliterators lists get tanked on soft scores) is proof enough of that. I repeat, the only thing second tier here is your playing skills.

Chaos becomes first or second tier based on whether their opponent can handle lash. Appropriate psychic defense, using tanks as walls to avoid getting pushed around, multiple cheap units to reduce its effectiveness? They'll do well, kicking CSM around without a problem. An ability to either reach out and kill obliterators at range or not present a juicy enough target for them to be effective helps.

On the other hand if you feature lots of small elite units, depend on lots of different units doing their jobs instead of redundancy in the list, have no psychic defense, footslog, or a combination of any of those, any CSM list that brings lash and doesn't bring spawn, lesser daemons, or possessed (or brings them and rolls a 6) is going to trample you.

I do very well locally, and in tournaments my only problems have been double Seer Council lists.

Vache Glace wrote:

Havocs aren't very good either. Say you go first, it's unlikely that your Havocs will be able to see or shoot aything due to enemy positioning so they move up. Next turn they get 1 volley at a smoked/obscured/flat out vehicle that is nowhere near their point investement. Next turn they are either engulfed in CC or have been steamrolled by any decent shooting. Havocs are really only good against footslogging armies or if you need to kill low AV tanks like DE. If your opponent knows about how good Obliterators can be they will focus on them and usually kill them turn 1/2 or is they DS they will be swarmed or nuked after 1 volley.

I'm really not seeing the truth in this bit. You're saying any infantry-based long range support isn't very good because they might be obscured on the first turn, aren't worth firing at popped smoked transports(how would this be any different with a dakka pred, defiler, oblits, etc?), and will die soon after (I think you're forgetting they are exactly like csms which are some of the best basic infantry in cc).

Havocs are incredibly cheap ways to take powerful long range weapons. Your problems listed seem to have more to do with long range support in general. A huge amount of lists take oblits, havocs, or some other long range support that does very well at what they are there for.

I personally use 1 squad of oblits and 2 squads of 4x ac or 2xac/2x ml havocs routinely and they provide incredible long range death without fail. They are 35pts for 2 str7 48" shots(autocannons) and there is very little in this army that can do that for those kinds of points. They mow down rhinos and light transports and can then kill the occupants just as easily and all at max range. Once the enemy gets in close they are still decent fighting troops(albeit without a PF).

Halsfield wrote:
I'm really not seeing the truth in this bit. You're saying any infantry-based long range support isn't very good because they might be obscured on the first turn, aren't worth firing at popped smoked transports(how would this be any different with a dakka pred, defiler, oblits, etc?), and will die soon after (I think you're forgetting they are exactly like csms which are some of the best basic infantry in cc).

Havocs are incredibly cheap ways to take powerful long range weapons. Your problems listed seem to have more to do with long range support in general. A huge amount of lists take oblits, havocs, or some other long range support that does very well at what they are there for.

5 Havocs, 4 ML (or AC, in any combination) = 155 points
5 Devastators, 4 ML = 150 points, one guy gets BS5...
5 Long Fangs, 4ML = 115 points, and can split fire...

What was that about havocs being cheap?


What determines whether a codex is top tier or not? Is it the ability to make one competitive list archetype, or the ability to make multiple competitive list archetypes?

I won't argue that CSM cannot make a (singular) competitive list. They can. Take lashes, and obliterators, sprinkle some cult troops and you did it. But I don't think the existence of this one archetype means that the codex, as a whole, is top-tier. Look at orks. There are at least two builds that are competitive (having won, or top-tenned major events - horde and nob bikers) as well as several others that may see more play now (kan-wall, battlewagons). Space Wolves can go in several directions, from thunder wolves to razorspam. Codex Marines can go foot-based shooty (like Darth's ard-boyz list), bike-heavy (just own some major event), run one of several force-multiplying characters (like Vulcan), or go with a standard mech build.

CSM have... lash and obliterators (and maybe Abbadon). And as soon as you go away from those two things, other codexes do it either better, cheaper, or both. Is Lash top-tier? Probably - data seems to indicate as such. Is Codex:Chaos Space Marines - not so much. Not in my opinion anyway. For a codex to be considered Top-tier, I think it needs more than one viable build. Otherwise, Codex Dark Eldar should be considered Top Tier - Raider Spam is still a competitive build.

Redbeard wrote:

5 Havocs, 4 ML (or AC, in any combination) = 155 points
5 Devastators, 4 ML = 150 points, one guy gets BS5...
5 Long Fangs, 4ML = 115 points, and can split fire...

What was that about havocs being cheap?

To start, cheap =/= cheapest.

Next, replying to a reply without reading what the original (vache glace) replied to leaves you with a poor understanding of what I was talking about. I was not, and the post I replied to was not , comparing units from other codexes. The entire point was that havocs are a great way to get lots of cheap(cheaper than other csm HS choices per weapon) str7 shots via the autocannon. Regular csm squads can get some weapons cheaper(ie lascannon for 20pts vs 35pts), but obviously cannot take the quantity of a HS option.

And long fangs are the best infantry heavy support? STOP THE PRESSES !

Right

you picked the one weapon choice where havocs are more expensive.

Take lascannons, havocs are cheaper, but dont get on guy at BS5, which is rather a fluff abilty since were all BS4 to start with. Would be one helluva abilty with Imps, but were marines so its meh, and they pay for that ability.

Long fangs are better, when counting weapons vs points paid.

You ever realize, that they have 2! ablative wounds, when you put a wolfguard with them. After that any wound makes em lose a weapon. Sure they got the cheapest stuff, but thats because theiyre glass cannons. Youre comparing apples and oranges when comparing long fangs and havocs.


In the end, the CSM codex sucks, because its so empty, it nearly feels like the necron codex, since it has so few choices. But its still strong, anyone who says otherwise should play more games with his gaming group and improve.

Halsfield wrote:
Next, replying to a reply without reading what the original (vache glace) replied to leaves you with a poor understanding of what I was talking about. I was not, and the post I replied to was not , comparing units from other codexes.

I did read the original post as well. The fact that havocs might be a reasonable choice in their own codex (I don't think they are, mainly because winning CSM armies don't run them, they run obliterators...) doesn't mean they're good in relation to the rest of the game, which is realistically what is more important.

Voronesh wrote:
you picked the one weapon choice where havocs are more expensive.

I picked the one weapon choice that Halsfield was taking about, Autocannon/Missile Launcher havocs.

Redbeard wrote:

Halsfield wrote:
Next, replying to a reply without reading what the original (vache glace) replied to leaves you with a poor understanding of what I was talking about. I was not, and the post I replied to was not , comparing units from other codexes.

I did read the original post as well. The fact that havocs might be a reasonable choice in their own codex (I don't think they are, mainly because winning CSM armies don't run them, they run obliterators...)

That is actually quite false.

The guy who took first at the Ard Boyz Preliminaries and Regionals in New England was running them. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that if you know what you're doing they're actually not all that bad.

Breakdown of chaos force organization:

Troops: Great
HQ: Good
Heavy Support: Ok
Elites: Meh
Fast Attack: Double Meh

2/3 games are objective based games where troops win the game.

I'm not even going to read this thread because it's entire concept is hogwash. CSM are still tier 1, maybe not #1, but they are in tier 1. I have no trouble beating IG, SM's, SW's or Nids with CSM as a result of my book, None at all. Hell, I have 2 CSM armies: Fluffy mark-less night lords with 20 raptors and summoned lesser daemons (furies, for fluff) and a terminator/obliterator twin lash menace. Neither one is even close to tier 2.

Ahh sry missed that part then.

But Havocs are still nice, Autocannons and MLs really make em shine, if i want Lascannons i agree oblits are prolly better.

But orks and Eldar and Nids hardly warrant Oblits and fear ACs and MLs more. MLs are my fav against the new nids, that can be IDed again .

No, the oblits DS behind the stupid fething gravtanks and ram white-hot melta up their tail-pipe!

Redbeard wrote:

Halsfield wrote:
I'm really not seeing the truth in this bit. You're saying any infantry-based long range support isn't very good because they might be obscured on the first turn, aren't worth firing at popped smoked transports(how would this be any different with a dakka pred, defiler, oblits, etc?), and will die soon after (I think you're forgetting they are exactly like csms which are some of the best basic infantry in cc).

Havocs are incredibly cheap ways to take powerful long range weapons. Your problems listed seem to have more to do with long range support in general. A huge amount of lists take oblits, havocs, or some other long range support that does very well at what they are there for.

5 Havocs, 4 ML (or AC, in any combination) = 155 points
5 Devastators, 4 ML = 150 points, one guy gets BS5...
5 Long Fangs, 4ML = 115 points, and can split fire...

What was that about havocs being cheap?

3 Obliterators, 3 (insert weapon here) = 225 points

cheaper, most definately. while the Obliterators are more flexible, IDK about you guys, but they also seem to be targeted alot sooner before Havocs for me.

I would like to give some of you guys some advice though: stop about what you don't have, and start using stuff you do have. Lash lists work? Use them. Lash is getting countered or "boring"? figure out a new army. Anticipate how your opponent will react to your units, take a defiler so it dies turn one. keeps things off your other units. sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the dark gods, but you should have known that giving your soul to them

It seems to me that alot of people are too busy using lists they know worked for other people to come up with their own lists and their own playstyle....

I'm more thinking that in the new meta, ML and Autocannons are just sub-par to begin with.

Sure you can pop light vehicles with them, and hey that has its place you know. But against IG Leman Russes neither of those options are going to get you far, and when nids put FNP on their guys, you'll wish you had that AP2.

For another comparison as to why havocs suck, compare them to Lootas. What's 155 points in lootas? 10 or something? And unless they roll a 1 for shots, they're statistically getting as many hits as your average havoc squad, and if they're in cover they're just about as survivable.

In the new meta single lash is the way to go. I'd say lash prince + abaddon is the ticket. Won't Abaddon deal with all the new nids easily? I think the swarmlord could take him but that is what the single lash prince is for.

Yeah, Abaddon can easily take down any other-OMGIROLLEDAONE


Abaddon is unreliable. When you need him most he'll stab himself in the face. He's also slow and while lash helps, a single lash is counter-able rather easily and he doesn't fit in a mechanized list too well because you'd have to take a Chaos Failraider.

^What he said.
The CSM codex is workable, but it's not cost efficient for the real heavy hitters, which means low body count.

CSM can still win, just because the troops are that strong and the few supporting elements work their charm, but it's one dimensional.

With any army, creating an uneven distribution of points at a particular point on the table generally wins you the game, Chaos is no different and will prob. depend more on the generalship of the owner rather than the army.

I think Mephiston will begin to make other super characters "weaker" in the meta. Not because he can kill all of them 1v1 (although he can), but because he's so much faster and generally more able to consistently perform in the assault phase versus a Ghaz (2+ Waaagh-only) or Abaddon (Roll a 1). People are simply going to get better at fighting Meph, and therefore anything similar by extension.