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See...as I see it, Mephy consolidates any force multiplication into himself for being an uberbadass. Fleet alone makes it so that the loss of flight isn't too bad.

Abby is quite the opposite though he trades some toughness, speed, and general clunkiness for his 4++ and the chance to do nothing in combat and no force multipliers...the shining beacon is that he's cheaper than Mephy...but other options in the BA dex are cheaper than the rest of the CSM codex...so the seems to balance out...but all this is just first impressions, I'm sure things will be not so crazy when the damn thing is out for everybody to own.

Abaddon isn't cheaper than Meph. Meph is 250.

Lawl, it only makes it worse right?
The only comparable character would be...wait for it, wait for it...Arihman...leader of the renegade dust buckets...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think it's a fair comparison when points are concerned. Mephy doesn't even 'need' a transport...and should he want it, it could be a fast Rhino or Razoback...

I can already tell I'm going to get tired of Mephiston, if he's only 250. Ah well, c'est la 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Halsfield wrote:
Next, replying to a reply without reading what the original (vache glace) replied to leaves you with a poor understanding of what I was talking about. I was not, and the post I replied to was not , comparing units from other codexes.

I did read the original post as well. The fact that havocs might be a reasonable choice in their own codex (I don't think they are, mainly because winning CSM armies don't run them, they run obliterators...)

That is actually quite false.

The guy who took first at the Ard Boyz Preliminaries and Regionals in New England was running them. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that if you know what you're doing they're actually not all that bad.

You’re too kind!

I’m bringing them to Adepticon, too, so hopefully I don’t suck this year.

[quote=Mannahnin

Monster Rain wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Halsfield wrote:
Next, replying to a reply without reading what the original (vache glace) replied to leaves you with a poor understanding of what I was talking about. I was not, and the post I replied to was not , comparing units from other codexes.

I did read the original post as well. The fact that havocs might be a reasonable choice in their own codex (I don't think they are, mainly because winning CSM armies don't run them, they run obliterators...)

That is actually quite false.

The guy who took first at the Ard Boyz Preliminaries and Regionals in New England was running them. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that if you know what you're doing they're actually not all that bad.

You’re too kind!

I’m bringing them to Adepticon, too, so hopefully I don’t suck this year.

Spellbound wrote:Yeah, Abaddon can easily take down any other-OMGIROLLEDAONE


Abaddon is unreliable. When you need him most he'll stab himself in the face. He's also slow and while lash helps, a single lash is counter-able rather easily and he doesn't fit in a mechanized list too well because you'd have to take a Chaos Failraider.

What else would Failbaddon ride in if not a Failraider? Come on now.

With his posse of Failmanators with the Reaper Failocannon...

Uh oh, I think it's time for the 14th Black Failesy!

sourclams wrote:I think Mephiston will begin to make other super characters "weaker" in the meta. Not because he can kill all of them 1v1 (although he can), but because he's so much faster and generally more able to consistently perform in the assault phase versus a Ghaz (2+ Waaagh-only) or Abaddon (Roll a 1). People are simply going to get better at fighting Meph, and therefore anything similar by extension.

Actually, I would disagree we you there.

Mephiston has one HUGE problem; no Invulnerable save. He trades survivability for killiness and mobility, which means that he CAN be more effective, but he'll take significantly more finesse and caution to use well.

Running combat between Ghazghkull and Mephiston, Mephiston takes wounds at a rate of two or three to one for the first two rounds. Why? Because while Mephiston has Ghazghkull beat in damage potential, only 1/6 of his wounds actually go through, while Ghazghkull basically just needs to hit Mephiston to take a wound off. If Ghazghkull gets the charge, the odds are in his favor to run Mephiston into the ground, and they're only barely uneven if Mephiston gets the charge instead.

Abbadon has a 4+ Invulnerable, Ghazghkull has a 5+ which he can turn into 2+ for any two consecutive assault phases of his choice. Mephiston has jack. A few things that can take out Mephiston that wouldn't kill Ghazzy or Abbadon;

1. A unit of Burna Boys. Mephiston takes wounds when confronted with power weapons; Ghazghkull, Abbadon, and similar CC monsters don't. Either Abbadon or Ghazghkull tears through Burnas

2. TH/SS Termies. Now, you wouldn't want either Ghazzy or Abbadon locked in with TH/SS Termies, but they do survive it a lot better than Mephiston.

3. Any Guard unit that can take 4x Plasma and gets orders. 8 TL Plasma shots will do 5 wounds to Mephiston in a single round of fire, on average, but only 2-3 to Abbadon and only 1 to a Waaghing Ghazghkull. Not too wonderful against either Ghazghkull or Abbadon, but since Mephiston gets no save at all. . .


Saves are the single most important factor on a model's statline, IMO. Basically, there are plenty of things, fairly common things, which will kill Mephiston fine but are only half as effective against Abbadon and a sixth as effective against a Waaghing Ghazghkull.

I usually play mech guard or DE, and have never really felt threatened by a chaos army. They have limited ranged fire and few fast threats, so the game usually revolves around destroying some oblits/transports the first turn or two, killing troops slogging around the next two turns, then grabbing objectives.

They have some nice troop selections (plague marines) that are tough to move off of objectives, and a few decent options here and there, but unless your opponent is melee oriented and planning on running at you, chaos is going to have a problem.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Abbadon has a 4+ Invulnerable, Ghazghkull has a 5+ which he can turn into 2+ for any two consecutive assault phases of his choice. Mephiston has jack. A few things that can take out Mephiston that wouldn't kill Ghazzy or Abbadon;

1. A unit of Burna Boys. Mephiston takes wounds when confronted with power weapons; Ghazghkull, Abbadon, and similar CC monsters don't. Either Abbadon or Ghazghkull tears through Burnas

2. TH/SS Termies. Now, you wouldn't want either Ghazzy or Abbadon locked in with TH/SS Termies, but they do survive it a lot better than Mephiston.

3. Any Guard unit that can take 4x Plasma and gets orders. 8 TL Plasma shots will do 5 wounds to Mephiston in a single round of fire, on average, but only 2-3 to Abbadon and only 1 to a Waaghing Ghazghkull. Not too wonderful against either Ghazghkull or Abbadon, but since Mephiston gets no save at all. . .

For one turn, Ghaz is a monster. If Abbie doesn't roll a one or lose his initiative to cover, he's a monster. Meph, whether charging or getting charged, psychic powers or no, is always a monster. A tiny, fast monster.

1. So how did the unit of Burna Boyz actually catch Meph? Yes, in a vacuum, Burnaz will kill Meph. But not in one turn, not even if they charge. If they are all able to get close enough to attack (not that easy against 1 small base), out of 15 Burnaz, 12 get to assault (Meph kills 3 easily) get 36 attacks, hitting 18 times, and wounding ~3. Meph is still alive in the worst case scenario. If he charges the Burnaz and max extra attacks from the +d3 psychic power, he gets 10 attacks rerolling hits and wounds. That's 8 dead Burnaz before they swing. The remaining 7 will get 14 attacks, hit 7 times, and wound once. Then they run away and get swept at I7.

By contrast, WAAAGH Ghaz would take 1.25 if charged or less than one if charging. Non-WAAAGH Ghaz takes 5 wounds and dies if charged, ~2 wounds if not. Abaddon has a much more variable attack characteristic but if he rolls a 3 for his daemon weapon then he takes about 3 wounds if charged and 1 wound if not. If he rolls a '1', he's actually dead.

So for your first comparison, 15 Burna Boyz, T6 is actually a better defense than a 5+ invul and in the worst case scenario Meph does about equal or better than Ghaz and Abbie. In the best-case, Meph is better.

2. TH Terms, I agree, are not something that Meph wants to tangle with. If he charges them with super powers, he'll win combat but only have 1 wound left against 5 Termies. If he gets charged without super powers, he's dead. Ghaz and Abbie will do only very slightly better with super powers (Waagh, '6' for attacks) and still die if getting charged without. I'd say Meph still does about as well as other super characters.

3. IG players are, however, going to have to be able to shoot Meph. Ghaz and Abbs are protected inside units, Meph isn't. That's clear and obvious and in a vacuum Meph simply gets shot 9 times and dies. The advantage that Meph has is that he's a single model that can easily hide behind other vehicles/units, can claim cover to get the equivalent of Abby's 4++ save against most IG weaponry, and Meph doesn't need a transport bought for him the way Abbie and Ghaz do. Abbie + Raider is a 500 point investment. Ghaz and Wagon are a 350 point investment. Their squads can add upwards of another 200 points to that single unit. IG excel against blowing away single big important point-sunk Rock units. Meph is totally self-contained, and you still have 1750 points of army left over.

So what happens when Brother Calistarius faces an enemy with psychic defenses?

You don't care because you still have 1750 points' worth of unaffected army?

sourclams wrote:

For one turn, Ghaz is a monster. If Abbie doesn't roll a one or lose his initiative to cover, he's a monster. Meph, whether charging or getting charged, psychic powers or no, is always a monster. A tiny, fast monster.

Actually, without his psychic powers Mephiston isn't terribly frightening. +d3 attacks and S10 are huge. Preferred Enemy is meh because he's usually hitting at 3+ anyway! That said, in general you're right. Mephiston's average power is higher; that is, he's a little weaker than the other two, but he's at that level all the time while they are only up there some of the time.

1. So how did the unit of Burna Boyz actually catch Meph? Yes, in a vacuum, Burnaz will kill Meph. But not in one turn, not even if they charge. If they are all able to get close enough to attack (not that easy against 1 small base), out of 15 Burnaz, 12 get to assault (Meph kills 3 easily) get 36 attacks, hitting 18 times, and wounding ~3. Meph is still alive in the worst case scenario. If he charges the Burnaz and max extra attacks from the +d3 psychic power, he gets 10 attacks rerolling hits and wounds. That's 8 dead Burnaz before they swing. The remaining 7 will get 14 attacks, hit 7 times, and wound once. Then they run away and get swept at I7.

By contrast, WAAAGH Ghaz would take 1.25 if charged or less than one if charging. Non-WAAAGH Ghaz takes 5 wounds and dies if charged, ~2 wounds if not. Abaddon has a much more variable attack characteristic but if he rolls a 3 for his daemon weapon then he takes about 3 wounds if charged and 1 wound if not. If he rolls a '1', he's actually dead.

So for your first comparison, 15 Burna Boyz, T6 is actually a better defense than a 5+ invul and in the worst case scenario Meph does about equal or better than Ghaz and Abbie. In the best-case, Meph is better.

Um, read what you wrote again. Waaghing Ghazghkull is the clear winner in that scenario; comparing the worst-cases, Ghazghkull takes one wound, and both Mephiston and Abbadon take three.

As to how a unit of Burnas caught Mephiston, perhaps they moved 13" in a Battlewagon, dropped out 2", rolled a 6 for Waagh movement and assaulted 6" more, hitting him from 27" away. That's by no means implausible. Burnas in a Battlewagon are just as fast as Mephiston is.

2. TH Terms, I agree, are not something that Meph wants to tangle with. If he charges them with super powers, he'll win combat but only have 1 wound left against 5 Termies. If he gets charged without super powers, he's dead. Ghaz and Abbie will do only very slightly better with super powers (Waagh, '6' for attacks) and still die if getting charged without. I'd say Meph still does about as well as other super characters.

Just about. In general TH/SS Termies are the hero-killers of 40k, none of the big dogs really want to fight them alone. Mephiston, however, wants to fight them even less than the other two. Ghaz and Abby can at least tie the Termies up for one round.

One thing you're neglecting, at least in the case of Ghazghkull, is that he gets to choose when toa ctivate his super-powers, so they aren't at all unreliable; just limited.

3. IG players are, however, going to have to be able to shoot Meph. Ghaz and Abbs are protected inside units, Meph isn't. That's clear and obvious and in a vacuum Meph simply gets shot 9 times and dies. The advantage that Meph has is that he's a single model that can easily hide behind other vehicles/units, can claim cover to get the equivalent of Abby's 4++ save against most IG weaponry, and Meph doesn't need a transport bought for him the way Abbie and Ghaz do. Abbie + Raider is a 500 point investment. Ghaz and Wagon are a 350 point investment. Their squads can add upwards of another 200 points to that single unit. IG excel against blowing away single big important point-sunk Rock units. Meph is totally self-contained, and you still have 1750 points of army left over.

This is all true, but it highlights the point I was trying to make; Mephiston is in no way, shape or form a win button. He's a fairly tough model, but he's nothing the game hasn't seen before. Both Abbadon and Ghazghkull are as good in combat, or better, for about the same price. Mephiston trades survivability, in the form of high saves and unit-joining ability, for speed and a slight edge in damage-dealing potential, that's all.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Um, read what you wrote again. Waaghing Ghazghkull is the clear winner in that scenario; comparing the worst-cases, Ghazghkull takes one wound, and both Mephiston and Abbadon take three.

And super-powered Mephiston is the clear winner of the best-case scenario.

This is all true, but it highlights the point I was trying to make; Mephiston is in no way, shape or form a win button. He's a fairly tough model, but he's nothing the game hasn't seen before. Both Abbadon and Ghazghkull are as good in combat, or better, for about the same price. Mephiston trades survivability, in the form of high saves and unit-joining ability, for speed and a slight edge in damage-dealing potential, that's all.

Well of course. There are no 'i win buttons' unless you've got a PBS and Callidus Assassin fighting Nob Bikers. Mephiston being about to appear on as many battlefields as 4th edition Eldrad means people are going to get tons of practice at killing off a super character; this by extension shifts the meta slightly against super characters, for one because Meph can kill nearly all of the others in CC, for two because being better at killing Meph is going to make people generally better at killing off anything else like Meph.

BeRzErKeR:

Speaking of Preferred Enemy, doesn't it confer a re-roll in 5th edition, which seems a step up from the 4th edition effect of hitting on 3+ for models like Mephiston who general hit on 3+ anways.

sourclams:

Sure, you do have 1750 of army left, but presumably the enemy also have a 2000pt army. It seems to me that Mephiston will be more situational than Ghazghkull or Abbadon.

Given that Mephiston cannot join units (so I've heard) and has no invulnerable saving throw, how will killing units like him relate to helping people learn to kill units significantly unlike him?

I love how Chaos Space Marines continue to post amazing tournament results (see: recent Gladiator event and others at AdeptiCon), yet people cry that C:CSM is "nerfed" or "lame" compared to the new Loyalist Chapters.

sourclams wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Um, read what you wrote again. Waaghing Ghazghkull is the clear winner in that scenario; comparing the worst-cases, Ghazghkull takes one wound, and both Mephiston and Abbadon take three.

And super-powered Mephiston is the clear winner of the best-case scenario.

This is all true, but it highlights the point I was trying to make; Mephiston is in no way, shape or form a win button. He's a fairly tough model, but he's nothing the game hasn't seen before. Both Abbadon and Ghazghkull are as good in combat, or better, for about the same price. Mephiston trades survivability, in the form of high saves and unit-joining ability, for speed and a slight edge in damage-dealing potential, that's all.

Well of course. There are no 'i win buttons' unless you've got a PBS and Callidus Assassin fighting Nob Bikers. Mephiston being about to appear on as many battlefields as 4th edition Eldrad means people are going to get tons of practice at killing off a super character; this by extension shifts the meta slightly against super characters, for one because Meph can kill nearly all of the others in CC, for two because being better at killing Meph is going to make people generally better at killing off anything else like Meph.

And the Swarmlord eats all of them anyway.

brassangel wrote:I love how Chaos Space Marines continue to post amazing tournament results (see: recent Gladiator event and others at AdeptiCon), yet people cry that C:CSM is "nerfed" or "lame" compared to the new Loyalist Chapters.

Oh, don't even go there. I said as much earlier in the thread, and dismissed this whole thread as the blubbering of whiny little girls, and had people scurrying to the moderators like so many rats.

Terminus wrote:

brassangel wrote:I love how Chaos Space Marines continue to post amazing tournament results (see: recent Gladiator event and others at AdeptiCon), yet people cry that C:CSM is "nerfed" or "lame" compared to the new Loyalist Chapters.

Oh, don't even go there. I said as much earlier in the thread, and dismissed this whole thread as the blubbering of whiny little girls, and had people scurrying to the moderators like so many rats.

The truth shall set you free.

sourclams wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Abbadon has a 4+ Invulnerable, Ghazghkull has a 5+ which he can turn into 2+ for any two consecutive assault phases of his choice. Mephiston has jack. A few things that can take out Mephiston that wouldn't kill Ghazzy or Abbadon;

1. A unit of Burna Boys. Mephiston takes wounds when confronted with power weapons; Ghazghkull, Abbadon, and similar CC monsters don't. Either Abbadon or Ghazghkull tears through Burnas

2. TH/SS Termies. Now, you wouldn't want either Ghazzy or Abbadon locked in with TH/SS Termies, but they do survive it a lot better than Mephiston.

3. Any Guard unit that can take 4x Plasma and gets orders. 8 TL Plasma shots will do 5 wounds to Mephiston in a single round of fire, on average, but only 2-3 to Abbadon and only 1 to a Waaghing Ghazghkull. Not too wonderful against either Ghazghkull or Abbadon, but since Mephiston gets no save at all. . .

For one turn, Ghaz is a monster. If Abbie doesn't roll a one or lose his initiative to cover, he's a monster. Meph, whether charging or getting charged, psychic powers or no, is always a monster. A tiny, fast monster.

1. So how did the unit of Burna Boyz actually catch Meph? Yes, in a vacuum, Burnaz will kill Meph. But not in one turn, not even if they charge. If they are all able to get close enough to attack (not that easy against 1 small base), out of 15 Burnaz, 12 get to assault (Meph kills 3 easily) get 36 attacks, hitting 18 times, and wounding ~3. Meph is still alive in the worst case scenario. If he charges the Burnaz and max extra attacks from the +d3 psychic power, he gets 10 attacks rerolling hits and wounds. That's 8 dead Burnaz before they swing. The remaining 7 will get 14 attacks, hit 7 times, and wound once. Then they run away and get swept at I7.

By contrast, WAAAGH Ghaz would take 1.25 if charged or less than one if charging. Non-WAAAGH Ghaz takes 5 wounds and dies if charged, ~2 wounds if not. Abaddon has a much more variable attack characteristic but if he rolls a 3 for his daemon weapon then he takes about 3 wounds if charged and 1 wound if not. If he rolls a '1', he's actually dead.

So for your first comparison, 15 Burna Boyz, T6 is actually a better defense than a 5+ invul and in the worst case scenario Meph does about equal or better than Ghaz and Abbie. In the best-case, Meph is better.

2. TH Terms, I agree, are not something that Meph wants to tangle with. If he charges them with super powers, he'll win combat but only have 1 wound left against 5 Termies. If he gets charged without super powers, he's dead. Ghaz and Abbie will do only very slightly better with super powers (Waagh, '6' for attacks) and still die if getting charged without. I'd say Meph still does about as well as other super characters.

3. IG players are, however, going to have to be able to shoot Meph. Ghaz and Abbs are protected inside units, Meph isn't. That's clear and obvious and in a vacuum Meph simply gets shot 9 times and dies. The advantage that Meph has is that he's a single model that can easily hide behind other vehicles/units, can claim cover to get the equivalent of Abby's 4++ save against most IG weaponry, and Meph doesn't need a transport bought for him the way Abbie and Ghaz do. Abbie + Raider is a 500 point investment. Ghaz and Wagon are a 350 point investment. Their squads can add upwards of another 200 points to that single unit. IG excel against blowing away single big important point-sunk Rock units. Meph is totally self-contained, and you still have 1750 points of army left over.

your problem is, is that your working with averages. yeah, sure, on one game the burnas might get 36 hits with 20 wounds, another game might see 12 hits with 11 wounds. Hell, ive seen a Landraider get perferated by sniper fire one time, it took 6 penetrating hits from them.

A sniper cannot damage a Landraider. Even if you roll a 6, then 6 for rending, you have a 12 for your penetration roll.

brassangel wrote:I love how Chaos Space Marines continue to post amazing tournament results (see: recent Gladiator event and others at AdeptiCon), yet people cry that C:CSM is "nerfed" or "lame" compared to the new Loyalist Chapters.

This post is not supposed to be about: "QQ my army sux so bade I lose all the time". The OP himself stated that this is not about how bad CSM is, but how good the new codexes are and how that widens the gap. Good/smart players can still win with CSM, but it certainly has become more difficult to win consistently and a lot of new CSM players are struggling. The new codexes have incredible points efficiency, force multipliers galore, balanced force org sections (ie reasonably good choices for elite/fast attack/etc), non-suck special characters that blend with/improve army types, solid offensive and defensive psyker abilities, etc. YTTH could barely make an ard boyz CSM army list because of how poorly CSM scales in comparison to other armies.

Personally, I care less about how we are doing in tournaments(list/tactics whoring is not what this game is about in my eyes) and more about our current codex being almost completely devoid of fluff and the things that made playing CSM fun in 3rd edition. They essentially cut out 8 space marine legions (although the chaos-cult legions:death guard, world eaters, thousand sons, emperor's children still have designated troop choices and can field a decently fluffy army). Just imagine the QQing if they cut out ultramarines, blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, raven guard, salamanders, iron hands, and imperial fists(If you're asking yourself why I left out white scars read the post again). That is what they did to CSM and people wonder why we hate the 4th edition codex.

Correction: Some people don't like the 4th edition Codex. Personally I really like it, and it got me back into Warhammer 40k.

Further correction: YTTH is populated by idiots and their inability to compose a competitive army for Adepticon merely speaks to their ineptitude.

The fact is that if the Chaos Space Marines are winning tournaments, then not being able to come up with a good Chaos Space Marine list you have confidence in using means that you suck as a player.

Nurglitch wrote:Correction: Some people don't like the 4th edition Codex. Personally I really like it, and it got me back into Warhammer 40k.

Further correction: YTTH is populated by idiots and their inability to compose a competitive army for Adepticon merely speaks to their ineptitude.

The fact is that if the Chaos Space Marines are winning tournaments, then not being able to come up with a good Chaos Space Marine list you have confidence in using means that you suck as a player.

Your opinions are not more or less correct than anyone elses.

I dont think you guys are looking at this right. If CSM are winning events, then they work for those people. But the game doesnt exist in a vacuum, you also have the player to account for. And some players simply wont play the way chaos requires, they might be better off with eldar or nids or something.

Nurglitch wrote:Correction: Some people don't like the 4th edition Codex. Personally I really like it, and it got me back into Warhammer 40k.

Further correction: YTTH is populated by idiots and their inability to compose a competitive army for Adepticon merely speaks to their ineptitude.

The fact is that if the Chaos Space Marines are winning tournaments, then not being able to come up with a good Chaos Space Marine list you have confidence in using means that you suck as a player.

I really don't like the 4th ed Chaos Codex. It's a very competitive codex that is anything but 2nd tier, but it's Codex Black Legion, not Codex Chaos
We've got solid troops, and good HQ/Heavy support that provide multiple ways to build a winning list, but it lacks variety.
No bike lists, no jump pack lists, no mono deity lists, no Alpha legion cultists, the list goes on and on.
I got back into the game about a year ago and had to completely redo my list that was Alpha legion infiltrators + cultists.
Chaos is still a top tier competitive army, but it's just not as much fun as it once was.
I'm looking forward to a new codex so I can have a greater variety in my lists, until then my list is competitive enough.

If people have a problem winning the problem is with the player, not the codex.
I got best general for the 3rd time in a row at the local rogue trader today.
I tried a double lash list for the 1st time in a RT today, in the past I ran a lash and a Warptime prince.
I didn't get a single lash off in the 1st game, and only got a single lash of in the 2nd game (Tabeled space puppies in the 2nd game)
3rd game my lash princes ran crazy against nids dancing outside the range of in the shadow of the warp.
My point is in 2/3 of the games lash had no significant effect on the outcome of the game.
It was my troops (2PM, 1TS, 1 NM, 1 Vanilla) that carried the day.
I don't run oblits either, just a defiler and a single missile havoc squad.
The chaos codex is solid enough it can run with just about any mix of troops and heavy support, the problem is all of the lists are basically a mechanized CSM list.
It wins games, but they all play a bit similar.

With that in mind I'm starting work on my mono Khorne army today, and I'm going to use the blood angel codex so my troops can have access to melta pistols.
Slap a lot of jump packs on a lot of zerkers, pass up librarians for chaplains to keep they army free of psychers in the name of the blood god, and call it a day.
There is a reason GW sells a dozen zerkers for $30, and that reason is nobody uses them in a competitive list.
A lot of the stuff in our codex is undeniably awesome such as lash and plague marines, or total crap like zerkers and raptors.
I don't see my new BA being any more or less competitive than my chaos list, but I think it will be fun and will play differently.
In the end it all depends first and foremost on who is the better player, with luck being the tie breaker.

Mephiston is very powerful and even MORE powerful in the hands of a skilled player

Abbaddon needs a land raider and no matter your skill sucks on a roll of a 1. Sorry so many long posts detailing things we already know! Figure if Im gonna do that, I may as well make it a short post and to the point

Have to comment on this

your problem is, is that your working with averages. yeah, sure, on one game the burnas might get 36 hits with 20 wounds, another game might see 12 hits with 11 wounds. Hell, ive seen a Landraider get perferated by sniper fire one time, it took 6 penetrating hits from them.

I suppose anything is possible in fantasy land when 3 + 6 + 3 = 15.. even in last edition snipers only had 2d6. This one time.. I SWEAR TO YOU OH MY GOD.. I shot a TL autocannon from my dreadnought and it killed THREE monoliths because when you roll a PENETRATING hit and blow up the vehicle the shot just keeps on going!! Man I love fantasy land

Halsfield wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Correction: Some people don't like the 4th edition Codex. Personally I really like it, and it got me back into Warhammer 40k.

Further correction: YTTH is populated by idiots and their inability to compose a competitive army for Adepticon merely speaks to their ineptitude.

The fact is that if the Chaos Space Marines are winning tournaments, then not being able to come up with a good Chaos Space Marine list you have confidence in using means that you suck as a player.

Your opinions are not more or less correct than anyone elses.

I dunno...

Nurglitch seems to be making perfect sense to me. I wouldn't even say that he's stating his opinion but citing facts. Chaos does win a lot of tournaments, so there are obviously some people out there that don't have the problem that those who complain about Chaos being a second tier army do.

The current chaos dex is definitely still playable and competitive...a while ago a combined kharn, khornate daemon prince, plague marine and oblit list pushed my 7th Galen IG to the limit (it was a 2000 pt game). Great game.

It is the fluff that's missing in the current codex...and it feels bland, but definitely it can fight in the hands of a skilled player...

freddieyu1 wrote:The current chaos dex is definitely still playable and competitive...a while ago a combined kharn, khornate daemon prince, plague marine and oblit list pushed my 7th Galen IG to the limit (it was a 2000 pt game). Great game.

It is the fluff that's missing in the current codex...and it feels bland, but definitely it can fight in the hands of a skilled player...

You said it "pushed you to the limit."

Who won?