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Mephiston is very powerful and even MORE powerful in the hands of a skilled player

It seems to be a lot of this debate about Mephiston is based on the idea that he would even have the +D3 attacks psychic power, which he doesn't. He only has 4 attacks base and three powers: The jump move, S10 and preferred enemy.

and against ICs he has a very good shot at rerolling wounds too.. 5 attacks with preferred enemy is basically 5 hits, thats as good as 8 normal attacks

willydstyle wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:The current chaos dex is definitely still playable and competitive...a while ago a combined kharn, khornate daemon prince, plague marine and oblit list pushed my 7th Galen IG to the limit (it was a 2000 pt game). Great game.

It is the fluff that's missing in the current codex...and it feels bland, but definitely it can fight in the hands of a skilled player...

You said it "pushed you to the limit."

Who won?

It was a draw....

And how many other times have you played the same player with the same army? What were the results?

According to your signature, you have a pretty good W/L/D record with your Guard.

Yeah, but if we're being honest, 5th edition IG is pretty brutal. No one can field as many vehicles, special/heavy weapons, tons of scoring units and uber heavy support all at the same time.

Being able to push a tweaked IG list "to the limit" is a pretty solid accomplishment.

Not if it's only a single time.

Luck plays a large role in this game, so we need a larger sample size to be able to make a real comparison.

Actually we don't. If the person playing the game records the luck that they had, then it's a simple matter to calculate how much their luck deviated from the expected average. Besides, while luck does play a large role in this game the best players know how to manage that luck.

This is easily the most vacuous statement I've seen you make to date.

Would you care to publish your system of quantifying luck, or your luck:redudancy ratios?

sourclams:

My system? I would have thought it would be obvious, even to you, how one could go about "quantifying luck". Suppose someone rolled 6D6 on BS4, for example, and got [1, 2, 2, 2, 6, 6]. That means when we would have reasonably expected 4/6 to hit, only 2/6. You note down the event, the dice rolled, the expected value, the actual value, and continue until you have a record of the game.

While I agree with Nurglitch on using that system to keep track of overall luck (I think fumbbl did something similar for Bloodbowl online), I can't imagine actually recording the results of every roll in an actual game. Maybe something on Vassal could track it for games their, based on who rolled, but it would slow things down way too much on the board.

The point wasn't whether or not it was convenient to quantify "luck", just that it is possible.

About as convenient as writing a battle report, I'd say.

The problem with "quantifying" luck being that it's not necessarily who rolled above or below average more often, but at what key points during the game did each player roll poorly or well. You can be doing well all game, then lose the game due to a single LD10 morale check.

willydstyle:

Sure, but "key points" may flow from other innocuous results earlier in the game. Failing a morale check may seem well within the bounds of what can be expected, but it may actually be out of bounds when you find out who many saving throws were failed earlier in the game to force that morale check. What the key points are should be decided after the data is recorded and analyzed, not before.

willydstyle wrote:And how many other times have you played the same player with the same army? What were the results?

According to your signature, you have a pretty good W/L/D record with your Guard.

Played him twice. Once in the 1500 pt glad cup league (I beat him), then yesterday at 2000 pts it was a draw. The 500 pts made a difference. At that level the CSM can bring more toys when played in synergy can affect a wider area of an IG battleline. Kent is a relatively new 40k player (he used to play mechwarrior but shifted to 40k for about a year and a half now) and by virtue of frequent play he is getting better and better. I'm glad he is trying other lists besides the cookie cutter daemon prince lash spam. The only problem with him is that he has the true chaos mentality. Kill, kill, kill, sometimes to the detriment of not claiming objectives when that is the mission!

@wildstyle - yeah of the 40+ games I've played using the 5th ed IG (The 7th Galen Rockhounds) (and the 7 games as the eldar) I've played around versus chaos space marines around 8-9 times, vs 4 players. I've won them all bar the draw yesterday, but to be fair most of the games were vs new players, except 1 game versus Romy, and in that scenario the objectives were really skewed versus him (The "longest line" mission - all troops start in reserve. At the end of the game, measure the distance travelled from your table edge by all non-vehicle troops choices, add all together, the player with the highest cumulative distance wins. I was playing with mech platoons, he had just 2 troops choices. So you can guess who won..)

Despite that I really see the potential of the CSM book. In the hands of a good player it contains all the tools to fight well, with different "looks" to the army. Unfortunately it is obvious that GW is really pushing it's support towards the newer SM chapters, hence we will see more loyalist MEQ players than the traitor legions.

THIS JUST IN
SPACE WOLVES WIN ADEPTICON CHAMPIONSHIP
CHAOS SPACE MARINES MUST BE OBSOLETE!!!

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:THIS JUST IN
SPACE WOLVES WIN ADEPTICON CHAMPIONSHIP
CHAOS SPACE MARINES MUST BE OBSOLETE!!!

AWWW GAAWWWD WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!

Speaking of, apparently there may be scandal brewing at Adepticon. Cheating and whatnot.

/gossip

Link plox, I'm a stickler for drama.

Der linken.

I checked the GT results on the GW website for January and Feb, and CSM won first only once. It would seem that's not really valid data for arguments anymore.

But throughout my CSM career, my win/draw/loss record comes down mostly to two things:

1) Do they know the ins and outs of lash, and how to counter it?

2) Luck

and the elusive 3) Are they playing Dark Eldar?


If they know how lash works, it opens up a world of possibilities. I've seen Lootas with small 15-man shoota boy mobs interlaced throughout them such that I can only move one or two of the lootas around via lash, because I can't move them through enemy models. I've seen important models/units boxed in with rhinos, such that I can't move them with lash and a battle cannon will either be hitting them in cover [nice, but not ideal] or does very little damage on the slightest scatter (though it does often hit a rhino, which is an acceptable alternative).

Luck comes around wherein people are NOT suited to dealing with lash, but often took a single ray of psychic defense hope (Eldrad, old school Psychic Hood) and are depending on it to save them, or obscure situations cause me to lose the game. I remember one such game where I reduced the enemy khorne army to an aspiring champion, greater daemon, khornate prince, and a defiler by turn 3. He then proceeded to tear my entire army apart with those 4 models in a very embarrassing way.

As for DE, well, if they do raider spam then my army pretty much just falls apart if they're able to stop my vehicles well enough. See #2, luck.

In my opinion, the dex is starting to show its age now. Whilse in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, a player should be able to perform quite well. However in comparison to other dexes, other armies appear to be able to use similar tactics, units and strategies better and cheaper. What appears to give Chaos a little edge are certain key units (Oblits, Prince, Lash, Defiler). However comparing what chaos doesn't have with what they do have and flavour vs bland, I think chaos is a second tier army now. This is coming from me as an avid chaos follower of 10 years. What I also find the current dex to be quiet restrictive and over encourages players to field cookie cutter builds to remain competitive (It is currently hard to find a chaos army without a Lash/prince, plague marines and oblits/defilers)

All this being said, I am still using the current dex quite well and is enjoyable at a casual gaming level. If I were into the tournament scene, I would prefer to run a pre-heresy army using one of the marine dexes (probably the vanilla or blood angels dex if I were to do a pre heresy world eaters army).

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:THIS JUST IN
SPACE WOLVES WIN ADEPTICON CHAMPIONSHIP
CHAOS SPACE MARINES MUST BE OBSOLETE!!!

The best general by the way was a chaos space marine player who fielded abbadon....should quiet a few naysayers I hope...

freddieyu1 wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:THIS JUST IN
SPACE WOLVES WIN ADEPTICON CHAMPIONSHIP
CHAOS SPACE MARINES MUST BE OBSOLETE!!!

The best general by the way was a chaos space marine player who fielded abbadon....should quiet a few naysayers I hope...

Yep. Just because the sports/comp circle jerk ended up with Best Overall being wolves, the fact that Best General was won by CSM pretty much seals the deal.

Chaos players should really be complaining about the lameness of soft scores and the elitist, crybaby antics of a lot of 40k players and not their Codex.

Monster Rain wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:THIS JUST IN
SPACE WOLVES WIN ADEPTICON CHAMPIONSHIP
CHAOS SPACE MARINES MUST BE OBSOLETE!!!

The best general by the way was a chaos space marine player who fielded abbadon....should quiet a few naysayers I hope...

Yep. Just because the sports/comp circle jerk ended up with Best Overall being wolves, the fact that Best General was won by CSM pretty much seals the deal.

Chaos players should really be complaining about the lameness of soft scores and the elitist, crybaby antics of a lot of 40k players and not their Codex.

The panic seen in CSM players is based off the belief that space wolves winning best overall at adepticon scientifically proves that the space wolf codex will improve a player's paint score.

It's science!

willydstyle wrote:The problem with "quantifying" luck being that it's not necessarily who rolled above or below average more often, but at what key points during the game did each player roll poorly or well. You can be doing well all game, then lose the game due to a single LD10 morale check.

Man, I know how that goes. I had several games over the weekend at Adepticon that came down to dice rolls like that which swung the game from a winning prospect to a losing or draw prospect. It does happen.

DarkHound wrote:A sniper cannot damage a Landraider. Even if you roll a 6, then 6 for rending, you have a 12 for your penetration roll.

my apologies, I have been working late lately, and alot of crap seems to happen in my games (my bro's Chimera blows up my dreadnaught with a Warp-Taken multilaser almost every time, a meltagun blows up my monolith at 12" after its shrugged off 5 Lascannons and a couple of Battlecannons) and I just wasnt thinking when I posted that last part.

Kirasu wrote:I suppose anything is possible in fantasy land when 3 + 6 + 3 = 15.. even in last edition snipers only had 2d6. This one time.. I SWEAR TO YOU OH MY GOD.. I shot a TL autocannon from my dreadnought and it killed THREE monoliths because when you roll a PENETRATING hit and blow up the vehicle the shot just keeps on going!! Man I love fantasy land

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

im a Dark Angel Daemon hunter player. My most feared enemy at this time is chaos. I would rather face the new IG or SW codex over a chaos army. I get ROFL stomped everytime i face one.