Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

Slarg232 wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

OH NOEZ!1! HTAT WAS B0TH OR1G4N0L AN W177Y! AH D0N'T NOE HOW TO C0M3 B4CK T0 TH4T!


anywho....

To answer your questions, sanctjud, I beleive in a form of Fun where you are trying to win, but not trying to bitch your oponenet out of a win.

I suppose a parrallel could be drawn between what alot of the people do is to compare Warhammer 40K to fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter. You divide these people into 3 groups:

group #1: The people who play for fun/to get better. You know the type; they use a variety of moves (or rather, Units). They dont win everytime, but they play to have fun and it doesnt bother them. I would place myself into this category

Group #2: The people who are amazing. You know, they know which attacks to block, which attacks to counter, and when to just back up. Probably play professionally or are just that amazing. Usually will help new players out, and generally good people

Group #3: Bitch group, does whatever it needs to to win, which includes waiting to pick a character that can counter yours, just doing one move, usually a trip, over and over again (or rather, unit), most likely will rub your face in the dirt afterwards. Needs to be purged with fire, IMO. I have no respect for these people, I doubt they have any for themselves

I know fun is subjective, and I know its not my place to tell people what is and is not "fun". But good god, if you don't like what Chaos brings to the table, go play a different army. The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results. If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

A small afterthought: sometimes, spamming 1 unit type is acceptable, Like with me and my brothers, but before anyone says "of course its ok if HE does it", let me explain:

Me and my brothers are building an IG apocolypse army where we are all playing different peices of the puzzle. I have nine basilisks, because I am the artillery division of the whole army; no one else has any. My eldest bro has 9 lemon russ, because he's the tank division. My other bro has millions of foot sloggers, with the one baneblade because it would be to expensive to try to get 3,000pts of just foot troops.

That is totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table.

Mortified Penguin wrote:Speaking for myself here (and probably a good few Chaos players); I don't hate the codex because it sucks (it's pretty solid). I hate it because the Sultan of Bland thinks the Emperor's Bald Screaming Men are just dreamy and that while all MEHREEN variants need their own codexes because they're just sooo SPESHUL, that ALL the renegade and traitor chapters can be represented by ONE incredibly spartan list that leaves the interesting units acting like team killing fethtards half the time.

Also:

The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results.

If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

Slarg232 wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

OH NOEZ!1! HTAT WAS B0TH OR1G4N0L AN W177Y! AH D0N'T NOE HOW TO C0M3 B4CK T0 TH4T!


anywho....

To answer your questions, sanctjud, I beleive in a form of Fun where you are trying to win, but not trying to bitch your oponenet out of a win.

I suppose a parrallel could be drawn between what alot of the people do is to compare Warhammer 40K to fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter. You divide these people into 3 groups:

group #1: The people who play for fun/to get better. You know the type; they use a variety of moves (or rather, Units). They dont win everytime, but they play to have fun and it doesnt bother them. I would place myself into this category

Group #2: The people who are amazing. You know, they know which attacks to block, which attacks to counter, and when to just back up. Probably play professionally or are just that amazing. Usually will help new players out, and generally good people

Group #3: Bitch group, does whatever it needs to to win, which includes waiting to pick a character that can counter yours, just doing one move, usually a trip, over and over again (or rather, unit), most likely will rub your face in the dirt afterwards. Needs to be purged with fire, IMO. I have no respect for these people, I doubt they have any for themselves

I know fun is subjective, and I know its not my place to tell people what is and is not "fun". But good god, if you don't like what Chaos brings to the table, go play a different army. The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results. If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

A small afterthought: sometimes, spamming 1 unit type is acceptable, Like with me and my brothers, but before anyone says "of course its ok if HE does it", let me explain:

Me and my brothers are building an IG apocolypse army where we are all playing different peices of the puzzle. I have nine basilisks, because I am the artillery division of the whole army; no one else has any. My eldest bro has 9 lemon russ, because he's the tank division. My other bro has millions of foot sloggers, with the one baneblade because it would be to expensive to try to get 3,000pts of just foot troops.

That is totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table.

David Sirlin wrote:Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

Partof1 wrote:As a new player, of Chaos and 40k in general, I don't believe that CSM are 2nd tier. I think they can run with the best of 'em, in most settings.

An issue, however, is GW's concern with them, as we have one codex, where the Space Marines have many. Fluff-wise, this is not good, but gameplay-wise, it could be an advantage, in that we can mix all our chapters. We can have the assault prowess of Khorne, and the toughness of PM's.

Another is the mindset of players. On this, and other sites, the agreed upon army list is a DP or 2 with PM spam, when Chaos has much more to offer.

Spamming one aspect leaves you open to the weaknesses of that aspect, with no counter. For example, a Daemon Prince's melee prowess, as mentioned earlier, is wasted when he is all but used solely for lash. Alternatively, a Sorcerer may prove useful in his own right, by not being a fire magnet, with the same psychic potential.

The Plague Marines, while Formidable, have weakness as well. What their armour can't stop, neither can FNP. What games I have played, I have used Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. The Sons have proven incredibly survivable, their invuln save plugging the holes the power armour leaves. Plague marines reinforce what is strong, with the same weakness any MEQ has against tougher weapons.

I suppose my point is that Chaos players have used too much of a good thing, assuming what works best in most scenarios is the best choice for all scenarios. Units like Berzerkers can do a specific thing well, and usaind controlled amounts of niche units in an army can make all the difference that spamming PM's cannot.

Partof1 wrote:I haven't seen the BA codex, but instinct says it isn't the end-all be-all of 40k. Is it even out yet? if so, only for a handful of days. No matter what you play, you haven't had sufficient time to adjust to it. Chances are, there are weaknesses, but less than blatant ones, that will be discovered and exploited in the future.

Sanctjud wrote:
“(“My brothers and I…stuff we have spammed…, then it’s “totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table”)”
There’s obviously no double standard there

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:
“(“My brothers and I…stuff we have spammed…, then it’s “totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table”)”
There’s obviously no double standard there

"It's not handicapped..... stuff is priced more expensive.... has a lack of..... bandwagon"

any quote sounds bad if said like that. read it again, and you will see why its different for us, than one person.

Welp, I guess I am a scrub, but guess what? I would much rather be a social player than someone who thinks that winning a video game gives them "mad skillz" and makes them "Pro"

penguin, go troll somewhere else.

Nurglitch wrote:Oh, I don't know. Maybe Mortified Penguin will move onto losing with the Blood Angels and stop being an embarrassment to the Chaos Space Marines.

Mortified Penguin wrote:
Speaking for myself here (and probably a good few Chaos players); I don't hate the codex because it sucks (it's pretty solid). I hate it because the Sultan of Bland thinks the Emperor's Bald Screaming Men are just dreamy and that while all MEHREEN variants need their own codexes because they're just sooo SPESHUL, that ALL the renegade and traitor chapters can be represented by ONE incredibly spartan list that leaves the interesting units acting like team killing fethtards half the time.

Sanctjud wrote:
It’s not handicapped, it’s just not flexible.
In general, stuff is priced more expensive and has lack of force multipliers…it essentially missed the GW bandwagon that is the SMurf codex.
The idea behind Chaos Being handicapped in a competeitive environment is that it won’t win with similarly experienced players, and hence the victory though sweet won’t be realized in a consistant manner…

Mortified Penguin wrote:As a new player, of Chaos and 40k in general, I don't believe that CSM are 2nd tier. I think they can run with the best of 'em, in most settings.
The over-use of spammy lists is because everything else is crap. Accept it and move on; Codex: Chaos Fail Marines can't compete.

Partof1 wrote:I wish it expounded more on chapters like the alpha legion, or the traitor SW.