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AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

Sisters are a pretty solid codex, there are just a couple of reasons they're seen in such contradictory lights.

First, they have a huge set of fiddly rules. For new players, this is intimidating, and can lead them to keep saying "wait, you get to do what now?" Similar to Necron We'll Be Back, faith powers operate in a way nothing else in 40k works. Couple this with a few sisters players that either don't themselves always know how to play them, or outright cheat, and among newer and weaker players it's easy to see sisters as a "broken" army.

Secondly, sisters simply have a giant weak spot competitively: long range shooting. Yes, the exorcist is nice, but it's a single weapon on AV13 and not that hard to silence. Outside of that, the army is really restricted to an effective range of 12". Nearly every high powered tournament army out there can pick them apart at range, and then wipe out the survivors at will. Long fangs, leafblower IG, lootas... all very capable at shutting down the Sisters advance.

Sisters occupy a strange place with Dark Eldar in the competitive totem pole. they're very good, and can win plenty of smaller events, as long as they don't run into the rock to their scissors, which, in larger events, is simply too likely.

Melissia wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

Good becuase I think he's just baiting us. I started to type this long post and saw myself explaining the intricacies of using Faith at every turn. Suffice to say its not as easy as AbaddonFidelis thinks it is, as it take skill to use in the appriopriate circumstances. I'm sure you know all of this. Faith can be totally random and absolutely fail you at times or be so awesome as to defy description.

The way he makes it sound Faith always works and it makes Sisters the uberz! If that were true you (along with alot of others including myself) wouldn't be clamoring for a new Dex like you do.

Forum rule breaching post removed.

Just for fun!

Keeping in mind the rules for Acts of Faith, we'll go ahead and assume that the cannoness has used Spirit of the Martyr (and 1 faith point) and gets the charge. Basically we're doing ideal circumstances for the Witchhunter player here.

She charges:

I5, the Bloodthirster goes. WS10 vs. WS4: 3s to hit. 2s to wound for S7 vs T3 which will also instakill on the second unsaved wound as the Mantle only protects against the first Insta-Death.

5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds

I1 the cannoness goes. WS4 vs. WS10: 5s to hit. 4s to wound for S6 vs T6.

4 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .33... wounds


She will, even with the charge, inflict less overall wounds than the Bloodthirster. In subsequent rounds, her wounds drops even more, as she loses the attack for charging:

3 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .25 wounds, nearly half of what the 'Thirster is getting.


There are several caveats to this:

1: She's burning a Faith Point and making a Leadership test every single assault phase. If she fails, or runs out of Faith Points, she's dog meat for the 'Thirster. Even still, every point she burns is one less available for another squad to do something with.

2: The Cannoness effectively has half the wounds of the 'Thirster. He's got 4, she's got 3, but dies on the second Insta death meaning in this case she has effectively 2 wounds. She's less skilled, weaker, squishier, slower and isn't Fearless (so can be broken in CC and killed via Sweeping Advance) but she is a bit cheaper than a Thirster.

3: Support. At T3, the cannoness can be squished by any of the 'Thirster's allies that might be around. At T6, other sister's will have a hell of a time trying to wound the Thirster (especially when they have to hit on 5's also and the Thirster is getting a 3+ thanks to Iron Hide).

EDIT! 4: Instrument of Chaos! For 5 measley points, the Bloodthirster can win all draws! This gives it (an admittedly small) chance of killing the Cannoness via Sweeping Advance during any draws.

I can go into the Tyrant if you'd like, but a correctly kitted out CC Tyrant comes in a bit higher in points than the Cannoness, and that's before you add Tyrant Guard.

Melissia wrote:I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

Sisters aren't dominating largescale tournaments because the 3 best armies all have built in defenses.
Guard have enough lascannons to shoot down the rhinos. If sisters can't flame them they can't win.

Blood Angels have feel no pain and consequently *only* the rending attacks are a threat to them. Combined with wound allocation this
prevents the blood angels squads from being completely annihilated as a codex marine squad would be.

Space Wolves' main hammer unit is A) toughness 5 B) too small to let the sisters player get the best use out of their flamer, and C) on too large a base to, again, let the flame thrower do what it does effectively. Because they are toughness 5 they do not suffer instant death from exorcist missiles, allowing the space wolves player to take wounds on the lord or on the storm shield guy without fear.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

Sisters aren't dominating largescale tournaments because the 3 best armies all have built in defenses.
Guard have enough lascannons to shoot down the rhinos. If sisters can't flame them they can't win.

Blood Angels have feel no pain and consequently *only* the rending attacks are a threat to them. Combined with wound allocation this
prevents the blood angels squads from being completely annihilated as a codex marine squad would be.

Space Wolves' main hammer unit is A) toughness 5 B) too small to let the sisters player get the best use out of their flamer, and C) on too large a base to, again, let the flame thrower do what it does effectively. Because they are toughness 5 they do not suffer instant death from exorcist missiles, allowing the space wolves player to take wounds on the lord or on the storm shield guy without fear.
AF

Then I guess Sisters aren't as broken as you seem to think.

they are manageable if you're playing 1 of those 3 armies.

Or if you don't suck and are playing a different army?

The "top 3 armies" aren't the only ones that win tournaments.

Just the most common

Sorry Melissa, I'm confused. Do you have a counter point to make or do you just want to trade insults?
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw I dont know why you all are quoting me as saying "same old crap he's been posting all thread." That sounds like hazard to me. I don't post stuff like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Steamdragon
don't have a sisters codex around but I believe she can use power of the emperor or whatever to make herself str 5, hence str 10 with an eviscerator. ie she wounds on a 2. just saying.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sorry Melissa, I'm confused. Do you have a counter point to make or do you just want to trade insults?
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw I dont know why you all are quoting me as saying "same old crap he's been posting all thread." That sounds like hazard to me. I don't post stuff like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Steamdragon
don't have a sisters codex around but I believe she can use power of the emperor or whatever to make herself str 5, hence str 10 with an eviscerator. ie she wounds on a 2. just saying.
AF

Only if the cannoness rolls under her current squad size, that is 1 in your examples as you have her dueling other HQ choices, on 2 dice.Which is Impossible.

EDIT: darn spelling.

ICs take tests in a different way. At least for the invulnerable save power they do. I dont have a copy of the book so I can't look into it myself, sorry.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:ICs take tests in a different way. At least for the invulnerable save power they do. I dont have a copy of the book so I can't look into it myself, sorry.
AF

Ah, thats true. Sorry, i didn't see that IC section at the bottom of the acts of faith page.

Still, you have to admit that it's hardly a certain thing, even LD10 models fail leadership tests sometimes

yes.... sometimes they do... and the blood thirster has a 4++ which is definitely good. sisters do fail their faith powers from time to time......


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should have said str 8. I forgot strength bonuses are applied after the doubling effect of power fists and eviscerators.

S8 or S10 vs T6 doesn't really matter, you're still wounding on 2s either way. That would also require her to burn another faith point though, which means each round you're burning 2 points to kill 1 single model. It also doesn't change the math too much:

She charges:

I5, the Bloodthirster goes. WS10 vs. WS4: 3s to hit. 2s to wound for S7 vs T3 which will also instakill on the second unsaved wound as the Mantle only protects against the first Insta-Death.

5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds

I1 the cannoness goes. WS4 vs. WS10: 5s to hit. 2s to wound for S8 vs T6.

4 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 4++ save = .55... wounds


So in the charging round, she has a slight edge over the 'Thirster. Not a huge deal, as like I said the Thirster has effectively twice as many wounds. After the charge:

3 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 4++ save = .416... wounds, still less than the 'Thirster is getting.


Also keep in mind that I haven't factored in the Ld test for either Spirit of the Martyr or for Hand of the Emperor. You're also burning through 2 Faith Points every assault Phase to do that. With the timing on when they have to be used, you're almost invariably wasting some of them. The 'Thirster might completely whiff his attacks making Spirit of the Martyr pointless (unlikely), or you might completely whiff making Hand of the Emperor (which has to be used before you roll to hit) completely pointless (much more likely with only 3 attacks that hit on 5s).


Just for fun I test rolled this a few times with a friend. It didn't go well for me at all. (I am completely aware that test rolling is not really a valid diagnostic tool, especially with my luck )

Just had a guy help win an apocalypse game with sisters only.
Not broken. You just need to learn how to USE IT CORRECTLY. and then its fine.

Doctadeth wrote:Just had a guy help win an apocalypse game with sisters only.
Not broken. You just need to learn how to USE IT CORRECTLY. and then its fine.

An evil way to use Sisters in Apoc is if you can can combine Flank March and Careful Planning. With some freely spent Divine guidance and coming on first turn right on top of the enemy, they don't really stand much of chance unless you have some bad tolls. Combining 2 assets like that though is a bit of stretch in a "normal" Apoc game since there are no formations which grant extras to the Sisters unlike Space Marines and IG.

Sisters currently take a bit of finesse and skill to make them successful.

Melissia wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

Agreed 100 %



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Doctadeth wrote:Just had a guy help win an apocalypse game with sisters only.
Not broken. You just need to learn how to USE IT CORRECTLY. and then its fine.

Also agreed 110 %

dragon
even if she only stands her ground and breaks even, she costs half what the blood thirster does. she's doing pretty good. I think we both know that hand of the martyr and armor of faith will almost certainly go off..... if you factor them in the odds for the sister go down a little, but not much.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:even if she only stands her ground and breaks even

She doesn't.

Two wounds and she's dead. Two failed 2++ rolls and she's dead. Just ask any Space Marine player who uses Terminators how often their 2+ saves fail.

Steamdragon did the math. He wrote:
5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds

This is with the cannoness charging. Less than a 50/50 shot of failing even once. And I have to do get past it twice? With a model that's twice as expensive?

Come on Melissa....

And your point is? Oh wait you don't have one. I will repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:Two failed 2++ rolls and she's dead. Just ask any Space Marine player who uses Terminators how often their 2+ saves fail.

Sisters are not broken, but they do have cheesy convoluted and simply out-dated rules that allow many who play them to exploit their opponents ignorance of said rules. Both in legal and illegal ways.

The Sisters are out of date and due for a new codex in the next year or so(I bet before x-mas 2011). As to what will happen with the next codex?
My money is that whatever the rules, no matter how good, people in Houston will be able to hear Mellissa up in Dallas howling in fury over how GW ruined the fluff. That is even including that they make Sister seperate from the =I= like "M" wants.

@OP-Several posters in the thread have given you good advice and you seem to no longer feel that the WH are OP. Perhaps the thread has served its purpose.

Melissia wrote: I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

If you want to continue this conversation, Melissa, why don't you go back to the post I wrote the other day and we can pick up from there? Otherwise you're better off sticking to your resolution, than just ducking back in to throw out cheap jibes and insults.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Less than a 50/50 shot of failing even once. And I have to do get past it twice? With a model that's twice as expensive?

That's less than a 50% chance of failing once in the first Assault phase, if she charges. Then, in the Bloodthirster's turn she has to burn another two faith points, and the Bloodthirster gets another 50% chance. Once she stops spending faith points, either because she runs out or because the rest of the army is going without, the Bloodthirster kills her in a single assault phase.

yes. if she drops her armor of faith or whatever she dies.

sisters have enough faith points to keep it up though. If you play 5 sister squads + 2 cannonness + 1 seraphim squad + 3 exorcists they have 10 faith points, adn they get them back every time something dies. Assume they take 50% casualties, they have 15 faith points to spend over the course of the game. Yes they have to keep using them but sowhat? It's a combat with a blood thirster it's important, and they have plenty of them. As for hand of the emperor or whatever she doesn't actually have to use it; it helps but it isn't crucial.

the 50/50 chance is only to inflict a single wound. The combat could potentially last 3-4 turns, the majority of the game. If a 150 point sister ties up a 250 point blood thirster in close combat for the majority of the game, who wins?
AF

What's the point of spending so much faith points on a bloodthirster when you could just kill it with Exorcists? That's a stupid and wasteful tactic.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:The combat could potentially last 3-4 turns, the majority of the game.

Don't base your argument on what might potentially happen, look at what is likely to happen. If on average the Bloodthirster causes 0.46 wounds per Assault phase, it will take an average of 4-5 Assault phases for it to kill her: 2 Daemon Assault phases and 2-3 Sisters Assault phases.

Also, it's really 3-4 combat phases, which means that the Blood Thirster is locked for 1-2 movement phases, hardly most of the game...and there is a decent chance of something else charging into the combat, the army doesn't exist in a vacuum.