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Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

Sabatine wrote:Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

You misspelled "don't". The use of heavy flamers as an infantry weapon lies outside of the traditional Space Marine doctrine, that's all. It doesn't mean Space Marines are physically incapable of carrying them, no more than their failure to use lasguns is indicative that that weapon is too heavy for a Space Marine to carry.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:That they are even comparable shows a gameplay imbalance, since the canonness is so much less expensive.

They're not comparable. The Canoness stands zero chance against the Bloodthirster in all regards. Better example could perhaps be Avatar?

EF
it was before the whole blood thirster conversation. Scroll up.
Terminators don't have a 2++ they have a 2+
AF

Termies can have 2+/3++. DE Archon can have a 2++ that stays there until he fails. You seem to be forgetting that the canoness doesn't have this 2++ as a permanent feature.

Oscar
yes that's all I'm saying. It's over the top. And free :|

*le sigh*

Sabatine wrote:Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

Also, if normal humans can carry heavy flamers, why shouldn't she?

Sabatine wrote:... they're unics.

Eunuchs or Unique? I'm confused here.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sabatine wrote:... they're unics.

Eunuchs or Unique? I'm confused here.

I'm not certain beung eunuchs would help them heft a heavy flamer... though I suppose less concern for their dangly bits might make them a bit braver?

I think he was trying to say that Sternguard are unique among Space Marines. Maybe they're unique because they're secretly eunuchs?

Unique eunuchs?

Perhaps even unique eunuchs from New York?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:That they are even comparable shows a gameplay imbalance, since the canonness is so much less expensive.

They're not comparable. The Canoness stands zero chance against the Bloodthirster in all regards.

Look at steam dragon's math. You're very clearly mistaken.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Look at steam dragon's math. You're very clearly mistaken.

Look, it's incredibly simple:
The Canoness dies after two wounds.
The Bloodthirster dies after four wounds.
Therefore, even if she can cause wounds on the Bloodthirster almost as quickly as the Bloodthirster can cause wounds on her, she still loses.

Some people have trouble with simple math.

StReamdragon! There's an R!



I'm not sure they're the ones misunderstanding my math AF. Even with the charge, and burning 2 Faith Points per player turn (i.e., 4 per game turn), the Canoness comes out behind in the long run. Sure, she's a ~130ish model holding up a 250 point model, but again that's only if you decide not to support your 'Thirster with another unit. The canonness isn't the only unit capable of tarpitting a 'Thirster for a fraction of the cost, after all. And the chance of failure for a Ld10 Canoness on a Ld test is ~8.33...%.

And you can go ahead and say that "well, she might hold it up for 4 or 5 turns", but the math doesn't really have your back on this one. Keep in mind also that the math swings the 'Thirsters way if he gets the charge (and thus the extra attack). Remember, my math was ideal circumstances for the Witchhunter and ignored the Ld tests, and she still lost in the long run. (And by long run I mean 1-2 player turns).


I'm forgetting who made the other points I'm responding to though:

Cost of Faith points is factored into the Veteran Sister Upgrade. Sure, you get other stat bonuses for the upgrade, but remember a unit that loses it's Veteran for whatever reason (much easier in 5th edition mind you) is no longer Faithful, and thus incapable of using Acts of Faith. Having gobs of Faith Points doesn't help when you can't actually use them at all. A Space Marine unit doesn't lose ATSKNF because its sergeant gets killed, Orks can still use the Mob Rule if the Nob is gone, Chaos Book Marines are still Fearless if the Aspiring Champion, and IG units can still receive orders if their unit commander is dead.

Adding another 120 points worth of Sisters accomplishes little if anything. It actually makes things harder for the sisters in the end. 120 points gets you another 10 sisters with a Veteran to make them faithful. That with the cannoness adds up to the value of the 'Thirster:

1. You're now burning minimum 2 faith points per turn. If you don't use Spirit of the Martyr on both units, the Thirster directs his attacks against the non-invulnerable save group and simply slaughters them. Also keep in mind that Spirit requires you to roll equal to or OVER the squad size. Good luck with either 10 sisters or 10 + Canoness.

2. The regular sisters can barely hit/hurt the Thirster. They get 1 piddly attack that hits on 5s, wounds on 6s, and the 'Thirster gets his 3+ armor. Again, you could use Hand of the Emperor to get the +2 str, but you're now burning 4 points per turn for minimal gain.



2++ saves are not a panacea making a character unkillable. I can't begin to detail how many times I've seen a Shadow Field (2+ Inv. until first failure) shut down on the first shot. I have never once seen one last an entire battle.


Anyone claiming Acts of Faith are truly game-changing has probably never actually fielded sisters. I'm not saying that to be accusative, mind you, they just look better on paper than they actually end up being. Spirit of the Martyr sounds awesome, until you realize you're mostly using it to protect small units or spending an extra 20 points to hopefully get it off on a slightly larger unit. When you truly need it (when your units are full strength) it's almost never actually going to be there. Plus almost every example in this thread so far looks at a single unit in isolation to the rest of the army. Sure, a canoness with a 2++ save is awesome, but when you're staring down groups of enemies with AP3 or better weapons, or maybe in charge range with power weapons, you'll start seeing that there really aren't enough to go around. They may save a unit for a little while, but they certainly won't save your army if you play badly.



... I just realized we have Multi-quote, but I'm not going back after typing all that up

streamdragon wrote:

She charges:
I5, the Bloodthirster goes. WS10 vs. WS4: 3s to hit. 2s to wound for S7 vs T3 which will also instakill on the second unsaved wound as the Mantle only protects against the first Insta-Death.
5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds
I1 the cannoness goes. WS4 vs. WS10: 5s to hit. 4s to wound for S6 vs T6.
4 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .33... wounds


She will, even with the charge, inflict less overall wounds than the Bloodthirster. In subsequent rounds, her wounds drops even more, as she loses the attack for charging:
3 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .25 wounds, nearly half of what the 'Thirster is getting.

Emperors Faithful wrote:They're not comparable. The Canoness stands zero chance against the Bloodthirster in all regards.

Does anyone else see a mismatch here?

She should be strength 8. hand of faith or whatever.
so 1/3 x5/6 x1/2 = 5/36 x4 attacks = 0.55
like I said her effectiveness is comparable but their point cost is not

Emperors Faithful: your problem isnt with me. it's with the math. just look.
Bookwrack: yeah. I'll say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

streamdragon wrote:Even with the charge, and burning 2 Faith Points ... I just realized we have Multi-quote, but I'm not going back after typing all that up

your math reflexts 2 faith points per player turn. mine reflects 4. remember you get faith points back. If you start with 10 and take 50% casualties you have 15 to spend. spending 4 to kill a bloodthirster isn't an issue, although her cost is really better spent tying it up, since the sister player is still neutralizing a much larger target with a smaller one at a paltry cost at faith points. my math reflexts a caononess who wants to win the combat not merely extend it.

Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

So the Canoness will, on average, inflict .55 wounds given the charge AND both Acts of Faith. The 'Thirster will inflict ~.46 wounds per round regardless (more if he gets the charge, actually). Over all, the canoness winds up losing.

A 30 man ork squad with nob comes it at 190 points. Still less than the 250 cost of the 'Thirster, but will hold it up considerably longer. Hell, a 20 man ork squad with nob comes it at the Canoness's 130 points and would slaughter her mercilessly. Doesn't mean either is overpowered or underpowered. GW has stated numerous times that comparing the points value of a single unit to the points value of another single unit is meaningless. They have to be looked at in the context of the army.

Klawz wrote:

Sabatine wrote:Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

Also, if normal humans can carry heavy flamers, why shouldn't she?

Check the options for a IG COY Command... IG can carry H. Flamers. But only at a company level. This is probably because supplying this size equipment at a section or platoon level doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when this sort of equipment would be brought up from the rear... So yes... the female in PA can heft a heavy flamer.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
your math reflexts 2 faith points per player turn. mine reflects 4. remember you get faith points back. If you start with 10 and take 50% casualties you have 15 to spend. spending 4 to kill a bloodthirster isn't an issue, although her cost is really better spent tying it up, since the sister player is still neutralizing a much larger target with a smaller one at a paltry cost at faith points. my math reflexts a caononess who wants to win the combat not merely extend it.

How are you spending 4 faith points per player turn? And as I have a Sister's army, I'm fully aware of the Martyrdom special rule, but in practice it doesn't work out how you seem to think it does.

What math are you even talking about? The .55 wounds? Because if you check my second post in this thread, you'll see I already worked that out and guess what? The Canoness still loses in the long run.


And frankly, when you describe spending 2 faith points per player turn as "paltry", it really diminishes your argument in my eyes because they really are, in practice, a limited and valuable commodity.

Streamdragon
Ypou said: the canonness isn't the only unit capable of tarpitting a 'Thirster for a fraction of the cost, after all.
thats true. She may be the only flying tarpit.... can't think of a parallel off the top of my head but that's a good point.

you said: And you can go ahead and say that "well, she might hold it up for 4 or 5 turns", but the math doesn't really have your back on this one. Keep in mind also that the math swings the 'Thirsters way if he gets the charge (and thus the extra attack). Remember, my math was ideal circumstances for the Witchhunter and ignored the Ld tests, and she still lost in the long run. (And by long run I mean 1-2 player turns).
ummmm.... I think the math supports my revised statement that they are comparable, but not, as you said, my original statement that she will whip the crap out of a blood thirster. Since I conceeded that point I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. your math definitely does show that they are comparable; if she charges there's a 13/100 difference in the number of wounds they are likely to inflict on each other. That's being comparable. If the blood thirster charges and you add the leadership tests then yes that does favor the blood thirster. If you want to get the most accurate possible picture of the combat there are two other things missing:
1. she has hand of the emperor or whatever
2. you can't multiply out the wounds like you were doing. for instance I have 4 attacks each one has a 0.25 chance of wounding therefor I have a 100% chance of wounding. It doesn't work like that. You never have a 100% chance of wounding.

you said: Adding another 120 points worth of Sisters accomplishes little if anything. It actually makes things harder for the sisters in the end. 120 points gets you another 10 sisters with a Veteran to make them faithful.
or it gets you another canonness, or pretty close. remember we're assuming a naked thirster. give him unholy strength collar of khorne or even deathstrike and it's easily 2 sisters. so if you want to see who'se getting the better deal in the thirster vs. sisters fight go ahead and multiply everything you get for the canonness by 2. But yes another squad of sisters won't make a difference for that particular fight; but 3 flamers + 7 rapid firing bolters will most definitely make a difference in the battle as a whole, since demons have alot of units that are susceptible to flame thrower attacks.


you said: 2++ saves are not a panacea making a character unkillable. I can't begin to detail how many times I've seen a Shadow Field (2+ Inv. until first failure) shut down on the first shot. I have never once seen one last an entire battle.
they're pretty close. the way you deal with a DE archon or a canonness is the same; you jump them with a full squad of taccies and beat the crap out of them, by forcing so many saves they can't cope. My point here is not that a canoness is unkillabke. My point is that she's a much better bargain than is available to other players for their HQ.

you said: Anyone claiming Acts of Faith are truly game-changing has probably never actually fielded sisters. I'm not saying that to be accusative, mind you, they just look better on paper than they actually end up being.
well I can't speak to your experience. I've played good players and bad ones and I can tell you that you do need to make intelligent decisions about army comp and in-game play to make faith powers work. A bad sisters player has no chance at all against any army that I field. None. But if you haven't seen first hand how abusive this stuff is in the hands of a strong opponent then I guess I can't really communicate it. Melissa and some others complain that powers are very limited in their use, and that's really alot of nonsense. The only time you can't use them is when you don't really need to anyway. I've witnessed the bloodthirster vs canonness combat personally many times that's why I brought it up. The canonness has indeed won the majority of the time, but for the sake of the conversation I've agreed to go by the math, since that's all that I can prove. What that math shows is that they are indeed comparable, and that the sister does indeed cost a fraction of what the blood thirster does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

streamdragon wrote:Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

yes stream dragon. I realize that. What I don't understand is why you don't see the same thing there that I do. They are

comparable

right? you see that right?
RIGHT????

streamdragon wrote: A 30 man ork squad with nob comes it at 190 points. Still less than the 250 cost of the 'Thirster, but will hold it up considerably longer. Hell, a 20 man ork squad with nob comes it at the Canoness's 130 points and would slaughter her mercilessly. Doesn't mean either is overpowered or underpowered. GW has stated numerous times that comparing the points value of a single unit to the points value of another single unit is meaningless. They have to be looked at in the context of the army.

Disagree. The orks will take no retreat wounds. The Boyz drop faster than you think. Something like 5 per combat phase, depending on who charges who.
The points cost comparison is indeed meaningful. GW just cant be bothered to maintain play balance.

streamdragon wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
your math reflexts 2 faith points per player turn. mine reflects 4. remember you get faith points back. If you start with 10 and take 50% casualties you have 15 to spend. spending 4 to kill a bloodthirster isn't an issue, although her cost is really better spent tying it up, since the sister player is still neutralizing a much larger target with a smaller one at a paltry cost at faith points. my math reflexts a caononess who wants to win the combat not merely extend it.

How are you spending 4 faith points per player turn? And as I have a Sister's army, I'm fully aware of the Martyrdom special rule, but in practice it doesn't work out how you seem to think it does.

What math are you even talking about? The .55 wounds? Because if you check my second post in this thread, you'll see I already worked that out and guess what? The Canoness still loses in the long run.


And frankly, when you describe spending 2 faith points per player turn as "paltry", it really diminishes your argument in my eyes because they really are, in practice, a limited and valuable commodity.

sorry 4 faith points per game turn.
not sure I understand your 2nd point. What aspect of the martyrdom rule do you think I misunderstand?
if you're running out of faith take more faithful units. they're cheap. and they're troops.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I think it makes the sister with an eviscerator str 8. how do you think it works out?
if you're running out of faith take more faithful units. they're cheap. and they're troops.
AF

Sure they are troops but I think we have established that they are not cheap. Its almost 125 points for a single faith point for just a squad and the Veteran and no special weapons or transport. Sister squads must come in 10 girl units. Actually the cheaper option if we are just looking at Faith points is taking a squad of Celestians which is ~60 points per squad of 5 and no kit and they are all Faithful. So for about 200 points you can get 3 faith points, but those units aren't doing anything for the army at that point except contributing their faith points just like Sisters with no gear and transport. At least not for the first 2 turns since they would really have to move to get closer and then their shooting is 12". My point is that the army doesn't run on Faitha lone. Faith supplements the army and makes it work better.

Its just not generally worth it to make the Canoness go the distance against the Bloodthirster becuase the rest of your army suffers. Normally I can't spend 4 faith points on 1 assault. Thats almost half my starting faith at 2000 points (I'm usually at 10 or 11 depending on my army design). Generally speaking if your troops are constantly martyring themselves for more Faith points you are losing already. Personally I'd shower the Bloodthirster with 1, 2, or 3d6 STR 8 AP1 rockets from my Exorcists depending on what else I am facing. Much more effective by the numbers and less costly in army resources.

See if I spend 4 on a combat and get 4 faith points by martyring I've probably lost 3 or 4 squads. Thats bad.

Assuming you take 75% casualties over the course of the game and you start with 10 faith points (2 per canonness, 6 for various siter squads) you will have 15 or 16 to spend over the course of the game (if I remember the martyrdom rule right - dont have the book on me.) If you say 15 then you're spending less than 1/3 of your total faith alotment. And yes like you say you can just blast it with the exorcist so you really don't need to.

I think that way too much has been made of the blood thirster thing. I was making a larger point here: sisters pay less for units that do more than just about anyone else's basic troop, certainly more than anyone else's basic hq at 130-something points. Don't get me wrong - I'll defend what I said about the thirster because I think I'm right. But really there's more to the discussion than that 1 combat.

Somebody will say "but you have to buy a 50 point rhino so sisters come out to be the same as tacticals" I'm not ignoring that point - I've just already addressed it. Like 3 times. I'm not going to type it out again to save people the effort of scrolling up.
AF

As a Witch Hunter player I don't think they are broken at all. Especially not the foot list shown in the first post which does not use Veteran Superiors with Books of St. Lucius to be stubborn on a 9 or have have Rhinos for mobility for taking objectives.

Exorcists are good but fickle with D6 missles can be awesome if you roll a 6 but not so good if you roll a 1. Running them in multiples does get good with the law of averages. However Exorcists are the Witch hunters only source of ranged anti tank unless you want to ally Imperial Guard for Chimeras and auto cannons.

Sisters do get cheap power armored infantry but they are strength 3 and toughness 3 so they end up losing assaults and can be torrent of fired down.

The list popularized by Stjohn here is the immolator spam list and that is a really tough list going first since everything moves 12 and smokes and then is in your face turn 2 but at the end of the day you have a lot of av11 vehicles and then small 5 man/sister squads with 2 meltas inside and give up a ton of kill points and not going first you just got shot up.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

streamdragon wrote:Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

yes stream dragon. I realize that. What I don't understand is why you don't see the same thing there that I do. They are

comparable

right? you see that right?
RIGHT????

AF

How is dying after Two player turns max comparable? The Canoness stands zero chance at beating the Bloodthirster toe to toe UNLESS you can roll like a god. But I could say the same about a Gretchin versus Marneus Calgar. How in your warped mind does staying alive 1-2 turns = Comparable? Your arguement has no merit here, the Canoness is not over powered! What is so difficult to understand about that?
BTW, if you give the Canoness a Jetpack, that adds more points cost.

Let me remind you guys that necromunda heavies carry heavy bolters, plasma cannons and so forth without power armour.

Gack, a SOB is EASY to imagine carrying heavy flamers/Multi-Meltas.

Emperors Faithful wrote:How is dying after Two player turns max comparable? The Canoness stands zero chance at beating the Bloodthirster toe to toe UNLESS you can roll like a god. But I could say the same about a Gretchin versus Marneus Calgar. How in your warped mind does staying alive 1-2 turns = Comparable? Your arguement has no merit here, the Canoness is not over powered! What is so difficult to understand about that?
BTW, if you give the Canoness a Jetpack, that adds more points cost.

See, you just made his point for him!

A grot can kill Calgar if Calgar rolls constant ones and the grot rolls nothing but sixes!

Grots and Calgar are comparable! Duh!

/sarcasm

well emperors faithful I dont really understand why you think she'll die after two player turns max. can you explain your reasoning instead of just asserting it carte blanche?
AF

Emperors Faithful wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

streamdragon wrote:Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

yes stream dragon. I realize that. What I don't understand is why you don't see the same thing there that I do. They are

comparable

right? you see that right?
RIGHT????

AF

How is dying after Two player turns max comparable? The Canoness stands zero chance at beating the Bloodthirster toe to toe UNLESS you can roll like a god. But I could say the same about a Gretchin versus Marneus Calgar. How in your warped mind does staying alive 1-2 turns = Comparable? Your arguement has no merit here, the Canoness is not over powered! What is so difficult to understand about that?
BTW, if you give the Canoness a Jetpack, that adds more points cost.

Modquisition on. This thread has received multiple reports. Some persons have already been warned.
This is a public warning. From this post forward further posts insulting other posters directly or via slant will be viewed extremely harshly.
As an example the above slight " in your warped mind" if posted after this warning would result in a FIVE DAY SUSPENSION.

Posters on this thread have been warned.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well emperors faithful I dont really understand why you think she'll die after two player turns max. can you explain your reasoning instead of just asserting it carte blanche?

Sisters' first round: Canoness charges. Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.55 wounds.
Total so far: 0.55 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 0.46 wounds on the Canoness.
Daemons' first round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.416 wounds.
Total so far: 0.966 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 0.92 wounds on the Canoness.
Sisters' second round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.416 wounds.
Total so far: 1.382 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 1.38 wounds on the Canoness.
Daemons' second round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.416 wounds.
Total so far: 1.798 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 1.84 wounds on the Canoness.
Sisters' third round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness dies.
Total so far: 1.798 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 2.3 wounds on the Canoness.

Therefore, the Canoness will probably only tie the Bloodthirster up for two Daemon turns, and cause 1-2 wounds out of four before dying.

/thread

yeah Alex the math doesn't work that way. I see this all the time in math hammer discussions. "I have 4 attacks and each has a 1/4 chance of wounding so 4 x 1/4 = 1 I'll definitely get a wound." No that's not true. You have four 25% chances of getting a wound, you do *not* have a 100% chance of getting 1 wound. Even if you had 1000 attacks with a 1/4 chance of wounding you still would not have a 100% chance of wounding even once.

Based on what you've told me that's the reasoning behind the statement "2 player turns and the sister is dead." That's mathematically invalid.
AF

4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

SaintHazard wrote:4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

True, but its just not worth the 8 to 10 faith points to go 4 to 5 rounds of assault with a Bloodthirster just to have a narrow margin of winning the fight if even that.

andrewm9 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

True, but its just not worth the 8 to 10 faith points to go 4 to 5 rounds of assault with a Bloodthirster just to have a narrow margin of winning the fight if even that.

Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

Frazzled wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

True, but its just not worth the 8 to 10 faith points to go 4 to 5 rounds of assault with a Bloodthirster just to have a narrow margin of winning the fight if even that.

Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

With a Canoness?

That's a damned expensive snare...

BT's are also quite expensive and can be difficult to kill.