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Err, what? "So damn cheap"?

You do realize that ten Battle Sisters in a Rhino actually costs quite similarly to ten Tacticals in a rhino, right?

Melissia wrote:Err, what? "So damn cheap"?

You do realize that ten Battle Sisters in a Rhino actually costs quite similarly to ten Tacticals in a rhino, right?

At 11 points a model, versus Space Marines at 18? Not quite.

10 sisters in a rhino will kill more and be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino.

Two special weapons instead of 1. Faith over nothing. Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling.

Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package. Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around.

Jayden63 wrote:10 sisters in a rhino will kill more and be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino.

Two special weapons instead of 1. Faith over nothing. Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling.

Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package. Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around.

Ok, now compare them to a 10 point firewarrior. Sure he has a big gun, but does he blend?

SaintHazard wrote:

Melissia wrote:Err, what? "So damn cheap"?

You do realize that ten Battle Sisters in a Rhino actually costs quite similarly to ten Tacticals in a rhino, right?

At 11 points a model, versus Space Marines at 18? Not quite.

Space Marines cost 16, not 18. A squad of 10 Space Marines with a flamer, heavy bolter and veteran sergeant in a Rhino cost 205 points. A squad of 10 Sisters of Battle with a flamer, heavy flamer and veteran sister superior in a Rhino costs 192.

Ah, then he was cheating by using a faith point right after I dealt 9 wounds to a single unit with my plamsa cannon? Yes. That entire unit should have died then.

Jayden63 wrote:Some incredibly ludicrous stuff.

HAH!

No.

Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

"Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package."
If Sisters are cheap for what they get, Tacticals are cheaper because they get more for the same price.

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?

"when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."
You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.





And let's not even get started on Chaos Space Marines or Grey Hunters.

Come on, Leave this out of here.....I'm really not in the mood for this.

You're the one that asked whether or not Witch Hunters are "broken"... if you didn't want people to talk about that subject, why would you start the thread?

I don't want people arguing for no reason....*sigh*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want people arguing for no reason....*sigh*

I thought we argued because we enjoyed it. Regardless, this is getting too off-topic, so I'll repeat myself:

The answer is no, undeniably and unequivocally no. The army isn't "broken", in the sense of it breaking the balance of the game.

But you see Samus, Melissa likes to beat people to death, over the head with SoB facts/trivia. If only I loved my Tau as much as she loves her beloved, plastic, bob-hair wearing darlings.
*sigh*

Okay, I guess we can agree that they aren't, you just need to learn how to handle them. Which I think I understand now. More deepstriking raptors with meltas for those exorcists

Actually deep striking is probably a bad idea.

There's two basic easy ways to cripple a Sisters army.

1: light anti-tank plus AP3 or better blasts/templates (mostly dominated by Guard of course)
2: light anti-tank plus highly mobile assault troops (jump, beasts, cavalry, fleet, etc)

By light anti-tank I mean autocannons, psycannons, assault cannons, star cannons, and so on, to get rid of the Rhinos. Once you get rid of their transports, Sisters are vulnerable to AP3 weaponry (which makes them essentially overcosted Guardsmen) or assault (WS3, T3, I3, A1 base means they're not going to do much damage). Even with Acts of Faith, Sisters are going to have a hard time dealing with either of these combinations.

Exorcists are good, but without troops the Sisters army is screwed.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ah, then he was cheating by using a faith point right after I dealt 9 wounds to a single unit with my plamsa cannon? Yes. That entire unit should have died then.

Yes, the power that would have helped must be attempted at the start of the phase. Attempting it after shots have been fired is cheating. It's one of the more subtle ways to get acts of faith wrong to your advantage. A unit that size would have a lot of trouble passing the test to invoke spirit of the martyr too since you have to roll equal to or higher than the number of people in the squad for that one.

Oh, and T3 makes sisters more vulnerable to massed small arms and basic close combat attacks than Marines. Marines fail saves, and so do Sisters.

I don't run sisters, but I've played against it enough times and got my ass roasted.

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Some incredibly ludicrous stuff.

HAH!

No.

Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

What I'm sure you know, but didn't think to mention is that sisters don't get out of their rhinos unless they have to, Sisters don't assault anything. Seriphim do. So that's why sisters need to pop the other guy. They have all the melta and exorists fire needed for such a thing. This is why I said you need to stop the rhinos, because they don't need extra bolter shots when they tankshock a unit into a small ball then lay 2 flamer templates ontop. Toasty city. The only time they get out is when something has to die, or its a dominion squad with 4 meltas or flamers. Marines actually have a bit of an advantage here as they do have long range firepower that can stop sister rhinos at range. But once everyone is out of their rhinos, I'll give the nod to sisters in the shooting match every time. Tacs just can't hold up to divine guidenced flamers and bolter rounds even if they wound the sisters 16% more often.

"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

I'll give you this one since I forgot that exploding vehicles wound based on T now and not just a flat 4+. But even if you have to wait until 50% squad strength (or use the roll 3 choose 2 wargear item) the ability to get and INV save to fend off all that AP3 S6 or better guns means they are sticking around longer than marines getting shot at by the same weapons.

"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

When those special weapons are divine guided. Who cares if they can't get a missile launcher. Flamers are all you need baby. Its also a included limitation of the army. Sisters is an up close and in your face army. Its where they work the best. So its obvious that that is where their tools should work.


"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

With the Book of St. Broken you don't need combat tactics because regardless of how much you lost the combat, you still test at full LD and as such probably don't break, and then don't have to worry about getting run down like other none-ATSKNF armies or suffer fearless wounds. And when you decide to be done with the assault, you just choose not to use it. Stupidly powerful item for only 5 points.

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?

They sure don't when you have a bolter and BS4. Funny how most of the sister units that actually want to get into assault are all WS4, S6 (because of evisorators). The only place where those two stats matter.

"when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."

You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.

I fully understand how faith works. I've had it used against me far too often. Faith isn't too hard to get when you can roll 3 dice and pick two (thankfully a somewhat limited wargear item). Sure the sister squad that sacrifices the superior to maryterdom can no longer use faith or the generated faith point. But the one right next to it sure as hell can.

Clearly we are not playing the same game. 8-9 immolater spam using just sisters, dominion, flamers, and faith is nasty. Just freaken nasty. I'm not saying sisters can't be beat, but common if your as knowledgeable as you sound you have to recognize their strengths and know that sister spam is a stupidly powerful and effective army. Especially if the other guy doesn't quite know what he is in for.

Jayden63 wrote:I don't run sisters, but I've played against it enough times and got my ass roasted.

Maybe you just suck then, or maybe your opponent is cheating.

1: Against a good player with an assault-based army or a long-ranged shooty army, Sisters will be forced to get out of their Rhinos because they're exploded.

2: Marines are less likely to be reduced to half strength to begin with as they're less likely to be wounded.

3: You mention Divine Guidance as if this somehow solves all of the Sisters problems. Hint: It doesn't.

5: Being able to get out of close combat so that you can shoot your bolt pistols and charge again (Sisters don't have Bolt Pistols by the way, despite having them in the fluff) is better than being stuck in close combat being slaughtered.

6: Then learn how to get into assualt. If you think Sisters Repentia are good, I think I'm going to have to go lie down because I'm about to pass out laughing at you.

7: No you don't. The Simaculrum Imperialis is a twenty point upgrade, and it still won't make it easy to use all Acts of Faith at any time. And Acts of Faith themselves only last a single phase-- not turn, a phase. Meaning that if you want to activate Spirit of the Martyr during the shooting phase (activated, by the way, at the BEGINNING of the phase, so the enemy chooses their targets AFTER they know your squad has a 3++ save) it runs out after the shooting phase ends, just in time for the assault phase. Oh, and it only lasts for the first assault phase, if you want to that 3++ save during the next assault phase, guess what? You're going to have to use ANOTHER Faith Point. And this is for every single squad you want to protect.

Immolator spam has its own problems. Five or six member Sisters squads are easy to decimate even IF they use Spirit of the Martyr, and putting them in heavy support slots means you have less room for Exorcists. In the end, Immolators are little more than overcosted razorbacks.

Spirit of the Martyr seems like an easy way to save yourself from assault terminators Well, maybe.

Only if you're able to pull it off, and only if they still decide to assault you after they find out you've used it. Remember, you use it at the BEGINNING of the assault phase. So before anyone declares charges.

A smart player can always try to position his/her units so that they can assault more than one target, just in case the Sisters player attempts to use this.

A smart player can figure out that a unit of fully armed TH/SS terminators are close to assaulting you

Melissia wrote:You're the one that asked whether or not Witch Hunters are "broken"... if you didn't want people to talk about that subject, why would you start the thread?

I thought it was already answered, the reason they were "overpowered" was because the player was cheating.

Yes, forcing you to move away. Which means they're forcing you to react to their movements. Which means they can force you into a no-win situation by making clever movements. Etc etc etc.

People say the movement phase is unimportant to 40k, and they're so very damn wrong...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vene wrote:I thought it was already answered, the reason they were "overpowered" was because the player was cheating.

Yes, but there are people who dispute this.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Actually, a Canoness can buy the Cloak of St. Aspira (artificer armor) for 20 pts. and a 4+ invulnerable for 25, just like every other Imperial character. And she is still only S3, T3, so instant death is much easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Some incredibly ludicrous stuff.

HAH!

No.

Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

"Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package."
If Sisters are cheap for what they get, Tacticals are cheaper because they get more for the same price.

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?

"when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."
You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.

Preach, Sister! Tell 'em like it is. Sisters are a cool army, because they are different and require thought and skill to play. Havind markedly fewer choices in toys that are more expensive than everyone else, ala having to buy grenades, makes them a challenge. Any 12 year old can load up a bunch of gonzo-death-monkey assault troops or TH/SS termies and charge up straight across the table and up your nose.

Meh, people make too big of a deal over the Book of St. Lucius. Yes, it's only five points. But that means Sisters actually have to purchase their special leadership rules. Marines get ATSKNF for free as part of their package. Orks get Mob Rule, 'Nids get Synapse, Guard get Orders, and so on, without paying directly for them, it's included in their playstyle.

You might as well just say the five points is just a five points tax per squad of sisters. A tax for being out of date, when in a fifth edition codex you'd get the BoSL for free as part of the Adepta Sororitas special rule.

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I don't run sisters, but I've played against it enough times and got my ass roasted.

Maybe you just suck then, or maybe your opponent is cheating.

Just because I've lost to them, and lost badly, doesn't mean I haven't beaten them either. Maybe you didn't read my very first post in this thread because many of the following items I've already addressed.

1: Against a good player with an assault-based army or a long-ranged shooty army, Sisters will be forced to get out of their Rhinos because they're exploded.

True of all armies everywhere that use transports. You can't get to the cream filling without breaking the shell. Necessary tactics for all armies whos opposition keeps scoring units inside of vehicles. This is not an exclusive downside of playing sisters.

2: Marines are less likely to be reduced to half strength to begin with as they're less likely to be wounded.

Against small arms fire, you are correct, but even then its only a 16% difference. However, I seem to do most of my marine killing using things like plasma, melta, rending, ion etc. Things that wound both marines and sisters on 2+ or equally as easy.

3: You mention Divine Guidance as if this somehow solves all of the Sisters problems. Hint: It doesn't.

All of the worlds problems, no you are correct. Add to it that against armies like Tau/orks/guard you don't even need it (the AP 5/4 of the bolters/Hflamers are enough, so lets just throw it out all together. Make the lives of the poor SM a little easier. I've played games against sisters where the other guy only used the power to autorally because there was just no benefit from using the other powers. At the end of the game he still had 4 or so faith left (I think that game was a draw).

5: Being able to get out of close combat so that you can shoot your bolt pistols and charge again (Sisters don't have Bolt Pistols by the way, despite having them in the fluff) is better than being stuck in close combat being slaughtered.

Sisters in combat are dead anyway. Why try to save them, its like trying to save your firewarriors. Ever notice how Seriphim have hit and run (using superior old rules to boot). Units in a sisters list that want to be in HTH, have ways of making it work, its not like your throwing gun drones into BA assault terminators.

6: Then learn how to get into assualt. If you think Sisters Repentia are good, I think I'm going to have to go lie down because I'm about to pass out laughing at you.

When did I ever say Repentia were good. No save, no ride, T3, 4+inv, heavy price tag, really cool models. Total suckage on the tabletop. But if your taking things like repentia, arcos, penitant engines, yeah your going to have issues. Also, not everyone runs marines. Since when to Tau/guard ever want to get into assault? For some armies playing the shooting game is the only option. For those times when things are desperate you always can get boosted strength, boosted iniative (but not both at the same time) and a sister with a evisorator which is just as good at killing marines as a marine is with a P-fist (especially now that you can't get bonus attacks from a pistol.)

7: No you don't. The Simaculrum Imperialis is a twenty point upgrade, and it still won't make it easy to use all Acts of Faith at any time. And Acts of Faith themselves only last a single phase-- not turn, a phase. Meaning that if you want to activate Spirit of the Martyr during the shooting phase (activated, by the way, at the BEGINNING of the phase, so the enemy chooses their targets AFTER they know your squad has a 3++ save) it runs out after the shooting phase ends, just in time for the assault phase. Oh, and it only lasts for the first assault phase, if you want to that 3++ save during the next assault phase, guess what? You're going to have to use ANOTHER Faith Point. And this is for every single squad you want to protect.

Again, read my first post on this thread. I covered this.

I think Sisters are incredibly good-- probably better than Space Marines, even with a Codex two editions old. That said, they are a specialist army, absolutely a high-skill army to play, and can be countered by appropriate tactics. I wouldn't say they're broken.

Brettila wrote:Actually, a Canoness can buy the Cloak of St. Aspira (artificer armor) for 20 pts. and a 4+ invulnerable for 25, just like every other Imperial character. And she is still only S3, T3, so instant death is much easier.

Actually, Space Marine Captains and Chaplains get that 4+ invuln save for free!

1: It doesn't matter if it's not exclusive, only that it's there.

2: So? To a T3 army, small arms fire causes more wounds than plasma anyway. If a squad of Sisters is about to be shot at by a squad of Marines, I'm more worried about assault or bolter shock than plasma. Because bolter shock hurts like hell when you aren't T4, even with an armor save.

3: There are other powers, you realize, than Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr?

5: Because it's better to die doing more damage than to die not doing more damage. If Sisters had Combat Tactics, they could regroup and give another burst of rapid fire with whatever is left of the squad, especially if they still have a flamer left. But they don't. So they just die instead. This is a big advantage to Marines.

6: You're the one that mentioned units with WS4 and eviscerators. The ONLY unit that can have all eviscerators is Repentia. All other units just have two models with them at most (a priest and a sister superior). Also, Sisters Repentia do not have a 4++ invulnerable save. They have a 4+ armor save.

Guard don't need any help facing Sisters. In fact, a good Guard player can completely annihilate Sisters armies on a regular basis if they know what they're doing, the only chance the Sisters have is if they come in on the first turn and pop smoke... and even that's no guarantee.

7: Then quit trying to act ilke Acts of Faith are a friggin' panacea. You have no idea how they work if you think they make Sisters "broken awesome sauce". None at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:I think Sisters are incredibly good-- probably better than Space Marines, even with a Codex two editions old. That said, they are a specialist army, absolutely a high-skill army to play, and can be countered by appropriate tactics. I wouldn't say they're broken.

A full sized Mechanized Tactical squad gets MEQ, bolt pistols, frags, kraks, combat tactics combat squads, ATSKNF, and a free heavy and special weapon for the same price as a mechanized Sisters squad once the Sisters have purchased all necessary upgrades to make them not suck (special weapons, veteran superior, book, rhino with smoke). I'd say the Tacticals get the better deal.

Melissia wrote:
7: Then quit trying to act ilke Acts of Faith are a friggin' panacea. You have no idea how they work if you think they make Sisters "broken awesome sauce". None at all.

What do you want me to say? Sisters are the top of the crap heap? Anyone who has ever lost to them needs to turn in their armies and start collecting coins for a hobby because they clearly don't get the game? I've shown how to minimize the effectiveness of a sisters list. I've stated that they can loose, but they sure can win and win big too. Yeah sisters unfortunately fall under the same uni-build umbrella that Tau to. There are not that many effective ways to run a W.H. list, there is a ton of crap in that codex. But there is some gold in there too. Concentrate on the gold, throw in some skill, and you have a 70-80% win ratio army. Throw in experanced/talented skill and that goes up to 90%.

If you think I'm wrong, St.John's win/loss record with his sisters is more than just impressive.

Your being so fast to dismiss all the advantages that sisters bring to the table, yet your the only one in this entire thread doing so? Why is that? Maybe its you who doesn't fully realize how to get the most out of what the codex has to offer.

I'm not trying to troll, but it sure seems like your looking at silver dollars and calling them dimes.

Melissia, for someone who plays Sisters, you don't seem very interested in leveraging your advantages.