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You guys don't understand.

Melissia is allergic to satisfaction.

It's a condition, don't make fun!

I thought everyone knew better than to start threads where there was any chance of 'Sisters' being mentioned?

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Could you explain?
<I'm aware that the 3++ has certain restrictions but the 2++ is there pretty much whenever you need it... cannonness is ld 10 I believe.>
AF

Samus
you said: Ah, then he was cheating by using a faith point right after I dealt 9 wounds to a single unit with my plamsa cannon? Yes. That entire unit should have died then.

there are restrictions on when he can use his powers.... be sure to know them, they're different for several powers, the sisters player can get one past you if you're not careful.

Melissa
Wow. I disagree with practically everything you said. Here's why:

Melissia wrote:
Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

A couple things.
1. Do you really think a couple of rhinos can stand up to 3d6 str8 ap1 missiles every turn?
2. Yes in an assault MEQ whip sisters, but since sisters do the same to marines in shooting, it's a question of points cost. 11 vs 16, the sisters are more efficient in this fight. Simply put the sisters can afford to trade like that, the marine player cannot.
3. The sister's player shouldn't be using their faith powers to save their sisters in close combat against marines. The sisters player should just let them eat it sot he marines will be flamer bait next turn.
4. Acts of Faith equip a basic sister for almost every conceivable situation in the game. Getting shot at by plasmaguns? 3++ fighting monstrous Creature? str 5. shooting marines? rending everything. It's stupid how powerful this is on a model that costs 2/3 of what a marine costs.
5. Yes the power *can* fail but the way the acts of faith are set up you are likely to have it *when* you need it. For instance when are you most likely to be at full strength? When you are in a rhino or when you just got out. What are you likely to be doing then? shooting. Great rending works on rolling below squad size. When do I need a 3++? when I'm being shot at by low ap weapons. When am I likely to be taking fire? When I'm out of my rhino and have already burned the crap out of the badguys. The other 7 sisters are just chumps for the 3 with special weapons, but I have to kill all 7 of them before I can reduce the capability of the squad by even a fraction. 3++ works on rolling over the squad size, so again, the "restriction" turns out to only keep you from using the power when you don't really need it anyway.

Melissa wrote:
"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

1. Again, they are more resilient because the majority of the squad's capability is contained in 3 guys, who get more and more difficult to kill as the squad size is reduced. The other 7 just don't matter. You actually kind of want them to die because sisters are dog meat in close combat anyways so no help there, but your 3 flamer guys are alot more likely to survive plasmagun/melta attacks if their buddies aren't around, so they can turn their power on.
2. Acts of faith are limited only in the loosest sense. A properly constructed sisters army starts with something like 10 and gets them back every time the opponent takes out a squad. So if I kill you I help you. Great. I've played a strong sisters opponent on a regular basis for almost a year and I can tell you he hardly *ever* ran out of faith points. He conserved them by simply not using them like a slow; ie. only when actually needed.

Melissa wrote:"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

1. Oh no, can only take meltas and flamers. Nevermind that between those two guns you can take on any target in the game, never mind that the flamers are rending. As a marine player I pay 16 points a man for a 3+ save, and sisters can take it away for nothing. Either sisters should lose rending on their falmers, go dramatically up in price, or my marines should go down in price. As it stands the sisters player can deliver absolutely devestating attacks that I have no way to defend against at a fraction of the cost of the guys she kills.
2. Who takes storm bolters anyways?

Melissa wrote:"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

1. Let me make sure I understand. What balances out rending flamers is.... combat squads? bolt pistols? FRAG AND KRAK GRENADES??? rending flamers are death to any infantry target whatever; krak grenades and bolt pistols are just a perk on a guy who really, at the end of th day, doesn't need either.

Melissa wrote:"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

1. Yes, thankyou for reminding me. Sisters are crazy leadership all the frikkin time because of 1 wargear item. Everyone else has to deal with massive penalties to their leadership when they lose a combat, but sisters are okee-dokee here too. You can't escort a sisters unit off the board once broken (not that they break very often), because once again faith powers save your bacon; oh I'm fearless I regroup YAYYY!!! meanwhile a squad of the most elite soldiers in the galaxy can be chased off the board by a grot. Does this seem right to you? Again I pay alot of poitns to bring ATSKNF on my guys; by anything like a reasonable comparison sisters should be paying 5 points a model, minimum, for their faith points, but they get them for free.

Melissa wrote:"Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package."

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?
If Sisters are cheap for what they get, Tacticals are cheaper because they get more for the same price.

1. We have a slightly better statline, but the stat-line of a sister isn't what makes her good. She could be toughness 2, strength 2, weapon skill 2, and initative 2 and it still wouldn't matter; it's the flame thrower that does the damage, and these things auto hit and rend for nothing.

Melissa wrote:["when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."
You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.

1. If each flame template covers 6 guys and you shoot 3 flame templates, plus 7 rapid firing bolters, you're looking at over 30 shots. You're going to roll some 6's in there. And it's not just the rending; I have to roll saves on the normal stuff too.
2. The limitations on who can use acts of faith are basically this: "you can't use it if it wouldn't be good anyways, and even if you can't use it, it doesn't hurt you" because you're not paying anything to bring it. There's zero opportunity cost." God when sisters players complain about the restrictions on faith it drives me nutz. It's like I gave you a blank check but you're only allowed to cash it on a tuesday, and you whine and say "what about the other 6 days???" Look at the good thing you have and how often it helps you, and how completely devestating it is to your opponents, look at how often it saves your bacon and prevents you from losing when you get outplayed, and look at what you pay for it - zippo - and tell me you're being treated unfairly.


Sisters are the queens of cheese. Even a slow can win with these guys; drive towards them, shoot them out of their transports, flame them, repeat until they're all dead. Cover rules prevent most armies from shooting down enough rhinos to stop them, faith points save them whenever they get outplayed. For god's sake you get an HQ that can whip the crap out of a blood thirster for half of what it costs the demon player to bring it! You're the one who needs to read your own codex and appreciate the ridiculously powerful army you have, not bust on other people for pointing out GW's boneheaded mistakes.
AF

I agree with, AbaddonFidelis sisters can be a really really good army. Mech sisters is the way to go.

Granted everything else is bad. The model line is poor, the rules for anyother build is just plain bad, and lets not forget the overall bad codex design.

yeah. the models kind of suck and there are like 4 playable units in that book.... it's really monotonous. have never understood the rationale for splitting them apart from demon hunters.

Oh this will not end well...

Wow Melissia, you are great! I don't know enough about Sisters to know if I agree with all your points, but I applaud your fearless and spirited defense of the Sisters against the accusation that they are broken in an over powered sense. Certainly you have reasons for believing as you do, and your arguments, are better thought out than some of the trolling that is attaching itself to this thread and making it ugly.

Certainly it is not my personal experience that Sisters are over powered. Locally a player ranked 3rd in this years Rogue Trader in Hawaii with a gorgeous Sisters army, so I know they can be competitive, much to my joy. Anyway, keep up the good work!

--- Frankie

Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

You realize that this can only be done a Leadership Roll if she is by herself and not in a squad and that the first failed 2+ or 2++ roll from an attack S 6 or over and she dies unless I buy yet another piece of wargear for more points which only works for the first time she is wounded bvy such an attack. The fabled jump canoness of doom costs about 160 points plus depending on how you kit her out. That and she is only WS 4, I 4, S 3, T 3. She is nowhere near as good as a SM Captain of comparable points or less. I'm not saying she is not useful by any means. People are throwing stuff about that I feel they have no idea what they are talking about. Sisters are not more point efficient than marines. I can and do beat marines on a regualr basis. I also lose to them as often as I win. It depends on how the marines player builds his army. Storm Shield Terminators are quite nasty to me as is the larger amounts fo long range weaponry that Marines have access to.

I think that Codex Marines are every bit as good as Sisters if not slightly better. I think people need to just get over it. If the Sisters were as awesome as some people think they are then they woudl be winning more tournaments or at last placing more, but they are not. At those highest competetive levels I doubt popularity has any relevance as people bring the hardest armies they can make.

Can we leave the cheap jibes at each other out of it please. Ta.

I have no problem taking advantage of the best my Sisters have to offer. But I am also a realist, and I know their weaknesses. This is an outdated codex. The only way you can argue it's broken is if you argue its lack of internal balance and its externally being weaker than fifth edition codices.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sisters are the queens of cheese.

No.

1: They don't need to. They just need to withstand it long enough to get into close combat. Which means two turns. First turn is withstood because of smoke, second turn it moves and they disembark. And yes, they'd be close enough because Sisters have to get up close themselves to do any damage. If you just stay back your own anti-tank can pound the Sisters silly.

2: Again, a full squad of Sisters does not cost less than a full squad of ten Marines. The codex is outdated, and therefor Sisters pay more points for their rhino, more points for their veteran, more points for their special weapons, and more points for smoke launchers, and so on and so forth. Seeing as so many people don't seem to get this, let me show ya:

Battle Sister Squad w/Meltagun, Heavy Flamer
-- Rhino w/Smoke
-- Veteran Superior w/Book, Bolter or BP+CCW

VERY basic Battle Sister Squad. How much does it cost in total? 204 points. Most people would agree that two meltaguns and a combiflamer would be more effective, however. That would add up to 212 points.

Tactical Marine Squad w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter/Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta
-- Rhino
-- Veteran Sergeant w/BP+CCW or Bolter+BP

A basic tactical squad. How much does it cost in total? 205 points. Add in a power sword or combiweapon and it's 215/220 points, increasing its shooting ability or assault ability. And either way, they all have bolt pistols and frag grenades, so if your other units have enough anti-tank you might just want to drop the meltagun for the free flamer and make it into an assault unit for 215 points which can devastate any Sisters squad left out in the open by their destroyed transport.

Sisters are SO much CHEAPER aren't they?

edit: On another note, Assault Marines are two points cheaper than Seraphim. 210 points for ten assault marines with two flamers, add some more points for the power weapon or power fist. For Blood Angels these troops are even less expensive.

3. In which case their squads, which do NOT outnumber an infantry-based MEQ squad, will quickly be destroyed.

4. No they don't. That 3++ save is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad's size. That Str5 is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad size. Same with the AP1 on to-wound of 6 (not rending). And twelve always fails in the case fo the latter two. And these ACts of Faith are limited to just over one per squad. Don't give me all that crap about the Simaculrum Imperialis, it costs twenty points per squad if you want to use that, and I already proved that Sisters squads are not cheaper than Astartes squads even WITHOUT them. And that's only Tactical squads-- Grey Hunter and Chaos Space Marine squads laugh at the overpriced nature of Sisters and their equipment.

5. It's not rending. And if you've already used a lot of Divine Guidance in shooting you're probably already almost out of Faith points, iff indeed you aren't completely out.

6: The other seven DO matter. Or are you done ranting about Divine Guidance already? Against infantry, the killing capability of Sisters is in flamer and bolter spam. Remove the bolter spam and you've removed a great deal of their ability to provide wounds.

7. No, they're limited in every sense. Limited in number, limited in use, limited in how long they take effect, limited in and so on.

8: Sisters of Battle is a primarily shooty army. Their limitation when it comes to special weapons is not a small hindrance, as it forces them to get up close-- giving shooty armies time to pop their transports and devastate them with superior firepower, and giving assaulty armies time to pop their transports and get into assault.

9: Precisely my point, thank you. One out of three special weapons they have access to they never use because it sucks. The other two are very limited in scope, making them repetitive, predictable, and easy to counter.

10: If you think Bolt Pistols on tactical squads are useless, you are a bad player.

11: LD9 or LD10 stubborn is something the Guard can get easily. Marines can also get Stubborn if they want. The only thing unique about the BoSL is its effect on pinning, and very few armies use pinning anymore anyway.

12: Try "a vastly superior statline", or have you tried playing a non-Marine army in the last... ever?

13: Which means you have no anti-tank, therefor your enemy only needs to destroy your exorcists. not exactly a very difficult thing to do when fire is focused on them.

14: Go read the rules again then. You can always fail your Acts of Faith, and they're very limited in number. One per squad, plus two for your Canoness. Then if plus one for units that are destroyed or lose the ability to use Acts of Faith. Which makes them useless, so they might as well be destroyed. And each of these Acts of Faith are limited as to WHEN they can be activated as well, with Spirit of the Martyr notably giving your opponent the ability to make the act of faith useless by not shooting/assaulting that squad and instead shooting/assaulting a different squad which isn't so protected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

The Cloak of St. Aspira costs twenty points. And yes, a leadership test on an LD10 model. Which whether it passes or fails it uses up more of your limited Faith Points.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I thought everyone knew better than to start threads where there was any chance of 'Sisters' being mentioned?

I thought I'd give it a chance Never again....

Melissia wrote:4. No they don't. That 3++ save is activated based on rolling 2d6 under the squad's size. That Str5 is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad size. Same with the AP1 on to-wound of 6 (not rending). And twelve always fails in the case fo the latter two.

You got those backwards. Big squads are better at the +2 strength and AP1 Acts, little squads are better at the invulnerable save Act.

No, I just typed the wrong word (under instead of over).

There was a lot of text there, and that got through my proofreading

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Could you explain?
<I'm aware that the 3++ has certain restrictions but the 2++ is there pretty much whenever you need it... cannonness is ld 10 I believe.>
AF

It only works 'whenever you need it' if you're spending all your faith points on keeping the cannoness alive and none on the rest of your army, and she's all by her self, which leaves her quite vulnerable to instant death by plasma, autocannons, lootas, and the like, or just being overwhelmed by small arms fire. She also requires a pretty high point investment to get that 2+ save, and is still a T3 3 wound model.

Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

That's what I tried to do..Mid game. It was too late by then.

Well, but at least you're doing the right thing. Getting some advice from Dakka and going back at him for another try.

Most people will shout, "Burn the codex! Burn the codex! His Long Fangs are penetrating my rear end! Golly!"

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

I also think this way. But people like you and I are in the minority, because apparently every time I beat someone with my Sisters it's because Sisters are overpowered (meanwhile, every time I lose it's because "lol women go back to kitchen yo" or some other stupid bull****.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

I also think this way. But people like you and I are in the minority, because apparently every time I beat someone with my Sisters it's because Sisters are overpowered (meanwhile, every time I lose it's because "lol women go back to kitchen yo" or some other stupid bull****.

Some people are in it for the instant gratification, not the challenge, which I don't understand.

Although I do absolutely love the look on the face of our local Space Wolves player when my Tau beat him.

SaintHazard wrote:Well, but at least you're doing the right thing. Getting some advice from Dakka and going back at him for another try.

Most people will shout, "Burn the codex! Burn the codex! His Long Fangs are penetrating my rear end! Golly!"

I'll have to make a couple lists and choose the best one after I start to see a pattern with him...He's pretty simple though, so I should be fine. His next list will be vaguely similar to this one.

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

Not at all. I love throwing my Necrons at the new bandwagon armies and seeing how well they can fair. 2500pt game vs Blood Angels actually didn't go horribly...until Astorath and the Sanguinor showed up =/

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

No you're not. I always come back for more and try to improve my game. If I thought that way, I'd wouldn't be playing. Sisters was my first army and it took quite some time to figure out how to use it as it involves alot of finesse. Anybody who says different is lying or ignorant of how they work IMO. I didn't learn though as I chose daemons as my second army. I had to reevaluate how to play with that army since it is vastly different fromt he norm.

andrewm9 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

You realize that this can only be done a Leadership Roll if she is by herself and not in a squad and that the first failed 2+ or 2++ roll from an attack S 6 or over and she dies unless I buy yet another piece of wargear for more points which only works for the first time she is wounded bvy such an attack. The fabled jump canoness of doom costs about 160 points plus depending on how you kit her out. That and she is only WS 4, I 4, S 3, T 3. She is nowhere near as good as a SM Captain of comparable points or less. I'm not saying she is not useful by any means. People are throwing stuff about that I feel they have no idea what they are talking about. Sisters are not more point efficient than marines. I can and do beat marines on a regualr basis. I also lose to them as often as I win. It depends on how the marines player builds his army. Storm Shield Terminators are quite nasty to me as is the larger amounts fo long range weaponry that Marines have access to.

1. Yes, like you said, she can buy a wargear that protects her from instant death.
2. It's not much of a restriction that it only works the 1st time she fails a save against instant death; str 6 and above weapons aren't cheap to bring, whose going to bother shooting it at her when it's just going to bounce off her mighty invulnerable save? She's immune for all intents and purposes.
3. If you don't think she's as good as a captain try this: outfit the cannoness with: eviscerator, book of no instant death, jump pack, artificer armor, and have her fight against a marine captain as many times as you want. She'll win, I promise you. And she's cheaper. So I don't know how you can say the marine captain is *better*. Marine Captain vs Bloodthirster = dead marine captain. Marine captain vs. Hive Tyrant = dead marine captain. Canonness vs. Bloodthirster = dead blood thirster. Cannoness vs. Hive Tyrant = dead Hive Tyrant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Book
she has a jump pack she can just hide behind a rhino until she's ready to come out, then it's too late. Plasmaguns are short ranged weapons, in order to maneuver it into position I'll have to expose an entire unit to rending flamers. So basically I trade a 200+ unit for a shot at killing a 100+ point cannoness. Not exactly a good trade. Sisters shouldn't be running out of faith points anyway they're so easy for them to get and so easy for them to replace.
AF

I would say that your math is way off if you think that the Cannoness will kill a Bloodthirster in 1vs1. You got 2 faith points and strike last, that means that you got two close combat phases to kill the bloodthrister...3 attacks hitting on 5's and wounding on 4's, followed by a 4+ save means a dead Cannoness.

I'll give you the Hive Tyrant vs. Cannoness. But the Captain isn't far behind as he got the same s6 (with relic blade), isn't instant death'd either and have a permanent 3++ save if you went with the Storm Shield.

The blood thirster eats all three though.

Also the captain has a higher WS.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
she has a jump pack she can just hide behind a rhino until she's ready to come out, then it's too late.

Have you never heard of deep-strikers, outflankers, indirect fire weapons, move and shoot models, anything like that? Hiding behind a rhino doesn't do much if the rhino is targeted by a battle cannon or demolisher with the blast placed so it covers her too. WH probably didn't test to get the inv save either, if she was supposed to be safe back there...

Your argument only works if the WH player's opponent is always an idiot, and is a silly over-generalization more than anything else, just like your initial statement that 'they can get inv saves whenever they want,' which was what I was taking issue with in the first place.

Melissa
you said: This is an outdated codex. The only way you can argue it's broken is if you argue its lack of internal balance and its externally being weaker than fifth edition codices.
It's broken because you pay nothing for faith powers, and they in turn answer nearly everything.

you said: Sisters have to get up close themselves to do any damage. If you just stay back your own anti-tank can pound the Sisters silly.
This is true, but since rhinos are 4+ cover and all you need to make the army work is a bunch of sister squads + exorcists, you can spam a ton of them. It's just not hard for sisters to close. What's the main anti tank weapon right now? Meltaguns. Up close. People don't run lascannons because the 4+ wrecks their efficiency. The only ones who can get past it are guard because they're the only ones who can bring enough lascannons to get past it.

you said: a full squad of Sisters does not cost less than a full squad of ten Marines.
I don't own the sisters book so it's hard for me to look into it. I know your rhinos are 50 points, but that's only a 15 point swing over marines vs. a 50 point swing for the cost of 10 marines vs the cost of 10 sisters. Pretty strait forward comparison here. In addition, marines have to pay alot of points to bring a squad with generalist capabilities that the sisters get for free: plasmaguns and power weapons to cut through armor, power fist to get high strength. If you're going to advocate lascannons as an anwer to rhinos then you've got to include that cost as well, so I think you're going to end up with a very expensive marine squad to get anything like the total capabilities out of it that sisters get for nothing. Even if you don't though, no matter how you run the numbers, the sisters squad is cheaper. While 20-50 points might not seem like alot, if we do that trade 4 times in a game then you got a 80-200 point swing out of it. That is not insignificant at all; you can practically buy another sister squad for that at the outside, and in typical games sister squads do in fact out number marine squads.

you said: No they don't. That 3++ save is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad's size. That Str5 is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad size. Same with the AP1 on to-wound of 6 (not rending). And twelve always fails in the case fo the latter two. And these ACts of Faith are limited to just over one per squad.
No. Wrong. Acts of Faith are just over 2 per squad because you get them back when sister squads die. If a sister squad dumps 1 rending flamer attack on an equivalent points cost squad it's fine, it can die happy; if they get to do it twice you're in great shape. If every sister squad in the force gets to do it twice you win. Like I said acts of faith have restrictions, it's true, but the restrictions are slowed because they only keep you from using the power when you don't need it anyway.

you said: The other seven DO matter. Or are you done ranting about Divine Guidance already? Against infantry, the killing capability of Sisters is in flamer and bolter spam. Remove the bolter spam and you've removed a great deal of their ability to provide wounds.
HOW do they matter? 18 flamer attacks (6 each on average) that AUTO HIT vs 14 bolter shots that ROLL TO HIT. According to the odds it's 18 hits vs. 9 hits, making the 3 flamers 200% more effective than the 7 bolters, divine guidance or no. So again the majority of the squad's capability is contained in those 3 models. If you have to lose a couple of bolter spuds to save those guys with 3++ then it's just not an issue you should worry about, you ought to be hapy to see them go.

I'll stop ranting about divine guidance when they rewrite the frikkin book.

you said: Sisters of Battle is a primarily shooty army. Their limitation when it comes to special weapons is not a small hindrance, as it forces them to get up close-- giving shooty armies time to pop their transports and devastate them with superior firepower, and giving assaulty armies time to pop their transports and get into assault.
If by "shooty armies" you mean "guard" then sure. For everyone else the 4+ cover is debilitating. You just can't bring enough lascannons, you have no cover, your own transports are dog meat because of the exorcist. In a typical game of 40k it takes 2 turns to close with your opponent. If sisters go first that's ONE turn of shooting against FOUR OR MORE rhinos in cover. Do the math on that please, I think you'll find I'm right.

you said: Precisely my point, thank you. One out of three special weapons they have access to they never use because it sucks. The other two are very limited in scope, making them repetitive, predictable, and easy to counter.
lol ok whatever.

you said: if you think bolt pistols on tactical squads are limited you're a bad player.
lol ok whatever.

you said: Marines can also get Stubborn if they want. The only thing unique about the BoSL is its effect on pinning, and very few armies use pinning anymore anyway.
Yes. They can get it. By bringing a 200+ point character. This is what you need to understand: you get for free or next to nothing what everybody else pays *crazy* points for.

Now let's plug in lysander to your earlier statement about sisters being the same cost as marines: I bought lysander, you bought an *entire squad* of sisters, and, according to you, we broke even. How? I don't need Lysander to whip the crap out of sisters in close combat, my tacticals do it just fine. Lysander can't seperate from his squad or else the exorcists will blast him, if he stays in his squad I get no benefit other than stubborn, because the tacticals don't need the help. So you basically netted *an entire squad* of sisters for what it cost me to get what you can have for *next to nothing*

12: Try "a vastly superior statline", or have you tried playing a non-Marine army in the last... ever?
Vastly supeior to what? Half the armies in the game are MEQ. There's just nothing to make a comparison to. If you mean that marines have a vastly superior stat line to sisters you're wrong. They have a better stat line, but the diff. between hitting on 4s and hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s and wounding on 3s for me, and hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s for you, is marginal, not vast. If you were hitting on 6s and I was wounding on 2s *that* would be vast.

you said: Which means you have no anti-tank, therefor your enemy only needs to destroy your exorcists. not exactly a very difficult thing to do when fire is focused on them.
Ok, so should I be shooting rhinos or exorcists with the lascannons? They're both in cover, I have at the most 8 shots. You tell me, it's turn 1, I have to stop at least half of your rhinos to avoid getting burned off the board, I have one maybe two turns to do it; how exactly am I supposed to hit the exorcists? With WHAT? Yes I can get them if the game goes on long enough but frankly once all my rhinos are dead it doesn't matter what happens to the exorcists, they've done their job. It's armor 13 and it only costs 135 points if I remember right, so it's fairly tough to kill and it really doesn't hurt you that much if it dies past turn 2. Compare the firepower of an exorcist vs that of a tri las predator. Their roles are exactly the same, they're pretty much the same effectiveness, but the predator costs 30 more points; if we're running 3 copies of each tank it's a 100 point swing which AGAIN favors the sisters player.

you said: You can always fail your Acts of Faith, and they're very limited in number. One per squad, plus two for your Canoness. Then plus one for units that are destroyed or lose the ability to use Acts of Faith. Which makes them useless, so they might as well be destroyed. And each of these Acts of Faith are limited as to WHEN they can be activated as well, with Spirit of the Martyr notably giving your opponent the ability to make the act of faith useless by not shooting/assaulting that squad and instead shooting/assaulting a different squad which isn't so protected.
Melissa you should not be running out of faith points. Simple....As....That. 2 cannoness 5 sister squads 3 exorcists = 9 faith points, and whenever a squad dies you get them back, so over the course of the game, assuming you take 50% casualties (which is light but whatever) you have 14 faith points. How many times do you need to get rending flamers to win the game? 5? How many times do you need 3++ armor? 4? You don't even need the str. 5 power most of the time because again the frikkin exorcist destroys every other monstrous creature in the game. I just can't understand how it is you think you're going to run out of faith powers. Don't use them like a moron you'll have plenty I promise.
AF




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
she has a jump pack she can just hide behind a rhino until she's ready to come out, then it's too late.

Have you never heard of deep-strikers, outflankers, indirect fire weapons, move and shoot models, anything like that? Hiding behind a rhino doesn't do much if the rhino is targeted by a battle cannon or demolisher with the blast placed so it covers her too. WH probably didn't test to get the inv save either, if she was supposed to be safe back there...

Your argument only works if the WH player's opponent is always an idiot, and is a silly over-generalization more than anything else, just like your initial statement that 'they can get inv saves whenever they want,' which was what I was taking issue with in the first place.

Even in the scenario you outline, if the weapon doesn't scatter off, she can claim a 4++, 3++ if she goes to ground. Yes it's possible to take her out that way, but my comment was specifically in response to your advice about lootas or plasmaguns. Pick your scenario please, it's too hard to follow you when you jump around as needed to suit your arguments.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oscarius wrote:I would say that your math is way off if you think that the Cannoness will kill a Bloodthirster in 1vs1. You got 2 faith points and strike last, that means that you got two close combat phases to kill the bloodthrister...3 attacks hitting on 5's and wounding on 4's, followed by a 4+ save means a dead Cannoness.

I'll give you the Hive Tyrant vs. Cannoness. But the Captain isn't far behind as he got the same s6 (with relic blade), isn't instant death'd either and have a permanent 3++ save if you went with the Storm Shield.

The blood thirster eats all three though.

Just run the combat please. Sister 2++ no instant death str 6 power weapon.
AF