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Sisters can be a Really good army In this edition. Not necessarily that particular list, but recently I played an old associate at 1500 pts, he had sisters I had Mech IG. His list was something like:

Canoness- Inf Pistol Book of St. Lucius,
Retinue-

Multimelta Meltagun Immolater Transport.

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Veteran sister squad 5 models
Multi-melta
Melta
Immolater

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

He tabled me! I was so happy I haven't been tabled in so long before that. After the game I red up on sisters and feel certain game changing mistakes wouldn't have been made. If I get a chance to play again I'm certain that our game would go more favorably for the IG. In-case you were wondering my list was:

CCS- Plasma x4 Chimera

Psyker Battle Squad +4 Chimera

Vets Plasmax3 Chimera

Vets Plasmax3 Chimera

Vets Meltax3 Demo

Vets Meltax3 Demo

Vendetta
Vendetta

manticore
Manticore

JSK-Fox wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Ask him for the codex/army list, as has been said above, and if you think he's lying, and he refuses to show you the list/codex, remember what Kharn does best - Beats the feth outta people. Use his strength while yelling BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and put an end to their snide ideals.

Alternatively just call them on it publicly and refuse to play with them. This in no way means going berserk wouldn't be appreciated. i just need to get some popcorn first.

Ah, mellisia joins the thread

Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm really glad he didn't take chimeras though...He doesn't know about their 5 firing points..

Melissia wrote:

Does anyone else think Witch Hunters are broken?

Noone that actually tries to play the army by the rules does...

"Divine Guidance" makes the weapons AP1 or power weapons in close combat. Not rending. The difference is important when it comes to vehicles (rending is generally better, as rending bolters can actually penetrate light tanks, whereas AP1 bolters are all but useless against vehicles).

Unless you can hit rear armor.

Bolters at S4 can glance rear armor on most tanks on sixes. Two shots each at 12" from 10 Sisters at BS4 translates to 13 hits, which nets you an average 2-3 glances. Glance is -2 on the vehicle damage table, but AP1 is +1, so you can still wreck a tank or at least immobilize/disarm it pretty easily with AP1 bolters.

As good as rending? Hell no. But not completely useless.

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Yes there are only so many times you can do this and there is a roll involved which can be failed. How easy the roll is depends on the circumstances. WH are far from cheesy and broken. The codex is approaching its 7th year in play so the players are feeling the age. Sisters pay for every weapon upgrade unlike Space marines and that includes grenades of all sorts, plus they are only armed with boltguns as basic equipment. A 10 man Space Marine squad costs around the same points that a Sisters squad does if they both use a transport and has better equipment for the price. Sisters need their Faith edge or they would get baked in normal play every time hands down.

Sure sisters have power armor, but I can tell you that most units in the game hit sisters on a 3+ and wound on a 3+. That makes for a lot of saves you will need to make. Also most characters are toughness 3 that means any failed save against STR 6 weapons kills them dead regardless of how many wounds are left. WH will never have the bodies that IG do so our losses hurt more.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:
Unless you can hit rear armor.

Bolters at S4 can glance rear armor on most tanks on sixes. Two shots each at 12" from 10 Sisters at BS4 translates to 13 hits, which nets you an average 2-3 glances. Glance is -2 on the vehicle damage table, but AP1 is +1, so you can still wreck a tank or at least immobilize/disarm it pretty easily with AP1 bolters.

As good as rending? Hell no. But not completely useless.

Since I cannot roll a "wound" on a vehicle they can't be AP1 at all versus vehicle armor. What Sisters can do though is assualt the vehicle and make their strength 5 to maybe even penetrate the vehicle armor assuming they have not bought krak grenades and want to try those instead. Krak grenades are at least a 20 point upgrade to a Battle Sister squad though.

andrewm9 wrote:Since I cannot roll a "wound" on a vehicle they can't be AP1 at all versus vehicle armor. What Sisters can do though is assualt the vehicle and make their strength 5 to maybe even penetrate the vehicle armor assuming they have not bought krak grenades and want to try those instead. Krak grenades are at least a 20 point upgrade to a Battle Sister squad though.

AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

SaintHazard wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:Since I cannot roll a "wound" on a vehicle they can't be AP1 at all versus vehicle armor. What Sisters can do though is assualt the vehicle and make their strength 5 to maybe even penetrate the vehicle armor assuming they have not bought krak grenades and want to try those instead. Krak grenades are at least a 20 point upgrade to a Battle Sister squad though.

AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

Thats true they do add +1 on Vehicle damage, but it says "any rolls which cause a wound on the roll of a 6 count as AP1". Its there in the codex. Simply put Divine Guidance is of no use against vehicles.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
I'm really glad he didn't take chimeras though...He doesn't know about their 5 firing points..

I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.

You can only have one priest attached per squad, and there's a 0-5 limit in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

Which is why Divine Guidance doesn't add AP1 to vehicle damage tables.

You only get AP1 on a to wound roll of 6, not a penetration roll of 6.

Are WH Broken? Yes, but broken like Necrons. Not broken like SW or BA.

svendrex wrote:I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Right. C:WH Chimeras are inferior in almost every way to C:IG Chimeras. Two fire points instead of five, and twenty five points more expensive, no free smoke or searchlights, no free hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

Melissia wrote:

svendrex wrote:I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Right. C:WH Chimeras are inferior in almost every way to C:IG Chimeras. Two fire points instead of five, and twenty five points more expensive, no free smoke or searchlights, no free hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

Not to mention that no other units other than the one you bought the transport for can board them, and that if IST fire out of them, they become open-topped.

Not so, daedalus.

GW Errata'd that.

daedalus wrote:

Melissia wrote:

svendrex wrote:I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Right. C:WH Chimeras are inferior in almost every way to C:IG Chimeras. Two fire points instead of five, and twenty five points more expensive, no free smoke or searchlights, no free hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

Not to mention that no other units other than the one you bought the transport for can board them, and that if IST fire out of them, they become open-topped.

FAQ fixed that a while ago.

Beaten by only 2 seconds

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ah, mellisia joins the thread

Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.

Witch Hunter priests really do have I4 and two attacks, but you can't bring them in units of their own and certainly not 20 of them. And of course if they take Eviscerators they strike last anyway. The only units that can be that size are Battle Sisters, Repentia, and inducted Guard.

Fair enough. You don't really know how quick you made me dash for the Daemonhunters FAQ and how disappointed I got by it though. :(

Yeh it's stupid how they didn't apply the same errata (concerning who can board a transport) to Daemon Hunters.

daedalus wrote:Fair enough. You don't really know how quick you made me dash for the Daemonhunters FAQ and how disappointed I got by it though. :(

Wait, you expect GW to be intelligent?

Also, doooooon't get me started on how crappy Repentia are. So easy to destroy by anyone remotely competent, so ridiculously overpriced and useless.

I just can't wait until Sisters get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Sisters were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

Red_Lives wrote:I just can't wait until Sisters get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Sisters were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

0_0

Melissia wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.

You can only have one priest attached per squad, and there's a 0-5 limit in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

Which is why Divine Guidance doesn't add AP1 to vehicle damage tables.

You only get AP1 on a to wound roll of 6, not a penetration roll of 6.

Gotcha. The way you said it before made it sound like it just plain old made their weapons AP1, regardless of rolls to wound.

First off, take more basic CSM. They're really quite nice. Kharn hits like a Daemon Prince then dies like a Chaos Lord. I had some fun moments with him, but that was really the extent of my use.

Second, Sisters are an army and like any other army they have resources. Make them use them up or die trying. It's really just a matter of adapting your play style.

ummm... more chaos space marines are just more chumps for the sisters to flame.... what you need to do is stop the rhinos. If sisters can't flame you they can't win.

AUGH. It's absolutely painful sometimes, the nonsense that AF posts.

Look, dude, look at the list Samus posted. Do you see a single flamer? DO YOU?!

AUGH.

I repeat!

AUGH.

Red_Lives wrote:I just can't wait until Sisters get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Sisters were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

I just can't wait until Eldar get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Eldar were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.
edit: Above statement is entirely sarcastic.

So anyway back on topic...


The flamers do AP1 on to-wound rolls of six. Still means they have to wound, and still means what, three out of four successful wounds for their heavy flamers (and two out of three for flamers) aren't AP1? I don't have the to-wound chart in front of me at the moment, but that sounds about right. And keep in mind that you don't have that much more than one faith point per squad in all but the smallest of games, so you spend it, hope to pass Divine Guidance, and you get on average ONE phase of this a game.

Melissia wrote:I just can't wait until Eldar get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Eldar were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

*hug*

Not every strong yet unfounded opinion regarding Sisters requires an equally strong yet unfounded response.

It'll be okay.

Actually I was mostly reciprocating it to show how much that statement could be considered trolling I have nothing against Eldar (Actually I considered starting an Eldar army before I settled on Guard for my third army).

So ... yeah. Back on topic?

SaintHazard wrote:AUGH. It's absolutely painful sometimes, the nonsense that AF posts.

Look, dude, look at the list Samus posted. Do you see a single flamer? DO YOU?!

AUGH.

I repeat!

AUGH.

Modquisition on:
BE POLITE PEOPLE

AbaddonFidelis wrote:ummm... more chaos space marines are just more chumps for the sisters to flame.... what you need to do is stop the rhinos. If sisters can't flame you they can't win.

Well, yes. That's true. I was worried about those stupid exorcist missiles, so I disembarked both units after the first turn (he exploded one of the rhinos, killing 6 marines!) Otherwise, the rhinos would have been amazing, since he wasn't taking them

Seriously, the dreadnought would have punched serious face if I had destroyed those exorcists. He wasn't taking anything except storm bolters for all of his Sister. The dread could have easily destroyed everything.

Surprisingly, the raptors actually did their job pretty well. I shouldn't have deep-striked them though. They ended up flaming a couple sisters and then dying in assault, which was okay, I guess.

Witch hunters codex can produce two things. Crap and bordering on broken awesome sauce.

The main power of the SOB lists is the ability to spam. Because the basic battle sister is so damn cheep they can afford their slightly more expensive rhinos/immolaters. The big question though is what to spam.

The most competitive lists go all mech and spam sisters and faith. They then use that faith and flamers to crush all opposition. They can get enough melta guns that armor isn't an issue even without using the annoying exorcists.

Its not uncommon to see lists that have 8-10 faith with 3-4 more points generated over time by sacraficing sister superiors. If the sister player knows what they are doing, you will feel lost as bullets bounce off of inv saves and their flamers crush you with AP1.

So whats the trick? 1) remove the transports. With the exception of the exorsists sisters cannot get to you at range. They can get a sick number of heavy bolters, but many don't fear the HB and for good reason. So get those sisters out of their rhinos/immolators and things get much harder. You can somewhat protect yourself from exorsists thanks to cover saves, but AP1 flamers will cook your goose. Priority is stopping their advance. If they are walking, yeah, bust up those exorsists. A DS unit with melta or plasma will pen their weak AV11 side armor. Also a weapon destroyed result is perfect because it knocks out the entire weapon system.

Trick 2) threaten multiple targets simultaneously. Since faith has to be used before your shooting/assault phase, you can force him to spend faith on all threatened units. Then attack the unit that either failed its faith test (each test can only be attempted once) or didn't get protected.