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All you really need to tie up the thirster is armor of faith; 1 faith point per player turn. If she does that it's still awesome; blood thirsters arent cheap canonnesses are (for an hq)
AF

Draggoon wrote:IG can carry H. Flamers. But only at a company level.

And every single Veteran squad.


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Frazzled wrote:Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

No it won't.

There are other, more important things you want to spend your Faith Points on than a single model which can be shot at by Exorcists. (click here for an explanation of this from a more general standpoint)

either way sisters have the edge.

If the canonness has better things to do than to tie up a unit that costs twice as much as it does then how, again, are sisters a fair and balanced army.......?

The blood thirster vs canonness comparison is just a single illustration. Consider that thousand sons have a slightly better stat line and a very similar set of capabilities, but are slightly more than twice as expensive per squad as a unit of sisters. Or that a space marine tri las predator has about the same capabilities as an exorcist and costs 30 points more, and cannot move and fire to full effect. Or that to give a marine a 3++ save, which again sisters get for free, the SM player pays 15 points *per model* That's just off the top of my head. Many more examples are possible.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:either way sisters have the edge.

Sisters have AN edge.

Just like very other army. But you still have yet to prove all of your theorycrafting is anything more than just that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:either way sisters have the edge.

If the canonness has better things to do than to tie up a unit that costs twice as much as it does then how, again, are sisters a fair and balanced army.......?

so by your logic a unit of gaunts being able to tie up a squad of TH/SS terminators makes 'nids unbalanced?

Inquisitor Hector Rex. In Imperial armour seven he takes on a bloodthirster and wins.

Next.

Technically Hector Rex fought an Apoc verson of a bloodthirster.

Fighting Bloodthirsters in single-handed combat must be all the rage nowadays in the imperium. I blame Sanguinus for starting the fad.

Harrab TH/SS terminators will rip their way through the gaunts. But no that wouldnt show that gaunts were broken. But if you had 4 or 5 more examples of ways in which tyranids were stronger than space marines and could list them all side by side, then the accumulation might.

That list for sisters is:
1. the exorcist tank, which is better than most of its equivalents in other armies and costs less.
2. the canonness, who is stronger than 95% of the HQs in the game and costs less.
3. sisters whose capabilities are out of all proportion to what they cost.
4. army-wide faith powers which cost nothing and make even basic spud sisters superior to most equivalent troop choices.

If you could put together a similar list for any other army in the game (guard say) then yes you could make a case that army was unbalanced. I'd hear you out anyway.
AF

1: No it's not, and it's not. S8 is a much bigger limitation than you realize. Can it, technically speaking, destroy AV14? Yes. And technically speaking a single grot can kill three khornate berzerkers. Furthermore, it only has a single weapon (thus it is heavily effected by any weapon destroyed result), and its shots are random and therefor unreliable. Average is just that-- not a surefire thing. You will find that in many games you roll ones to shoot far more often than feels appropriate, and sixes far less often.

As for its cost, I have already disputed that. with the AC/LC predator example which costs less (with Blood Angels, it costs the same and is a Fast Tank to boot) but does more consistent damage and can harm stronger armor (IE, it can actually penetrate AV14). Four shots, two of which are S7 and two of which are S9, is overall better than an average 3 S8 shots. A SoulGrinder is similarly priced but far more adaptable; a Blood Angels vindicator is ten points more but has a better weapon and is Fast to boot while the standard Vindicator is cheaper; a dakka dread with two TL autocannons is much more reliable against lighter armor, and isn't as vulnerable to assault or side armor shots; an Ironclad Dreadnought is even deadlier, and more survivable; a Battlewagon is cheaper with better armor and it's a transport for twenty boyz which can assault after disembarking. There are plenty of vehicles which are just as useful/deadly/powerful as the Exorcist for a similar cost.

2: You have continually failed to prove this for eight pages. The Canoness needs only fail two 2++ saves to die against an S6 or better attack. This is not an unlikely situation to happen.

3: You have continually failed to prove this for eight pages as well. Sisters are actually OVER priced compared to tacticals, grey hunters, and chaos space marines.

4: Already disproved. Sisters pay for Faith Points via veteran sister superiors-- and the squads which do not have to buy a VSS are non-scoring AND more expensive.



You do not know the army. Your theorycrafting is still, regardless of how much you repeat yourself, just that-- theorycrafting. It is based off of a misconception of the strength of the army, a misunderstanding of the rules, and a lack of real-world knowledge on how Sisters play. And it is entirely inavlid.

Melissia wrote:You do not know the army. Your theorycrafting is still, regardless of how much you repeat yourself, just that-- theorycrafting. It is based off of a misconception of the strength of the army, a misunderstanding of the rules, and a lack of real-world knowledge on how Sisters play. And it is entirely inavlid.

This is so true.

Basically while the Canoness is holding of the Thirster the rest of the army is going to get pounded by the Daemons.


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Doctadeth wrote:Inquisitor Hector Rex. In Imperial armour seven he takes on a bloodthirster and wins.

Next.

Yeah in a story. On the field if Rex gets lucky and actually injures the Blood Thirster he might kill it with his Force Weapon unless the Thirster uses his cheap 2+ save to avoid losing all of his wounds. Rex is also more points than a Blood Thirster and carries Daemon Killing Gear. Its a big difference.

Melissa

1. just do the math. you'll see that I'm right. ap1 makes up for str 8.
2. yes. you have disputed it. and I have answered the point about sisters being lower costed. at least 3 times. just scroll up and look for my responses I'm not going to write it all out again.
3. against a model that only has 5 attacks to begin with it is not as unlikely as you believe. Even going on the (mistaken) math that says 1/6 x6 = 1 so I'll definitely get 1 wound, the blood thirster is not certain to inflict even 1 wound assuming all of its attacks hit and all of its hits wound. You can focus on the blood thirster example if you want. I'm right about it. I'm also right about the tri las predator, thousand sons, and storm shields examples as well, which illustrate the same ponit of sisters getting something for free or at greatly reduced price that other armies, space marines in particular, pay more for.
4. whatever.
5. I dont own a copy of this codex. If the sister superior is optional then thats great, you have the option to not take it. If it is not then you're in the same boat with marines, who also pay for their sergeants, so again no special negative to sisters there.
6. whatever.

Now even I am tired of this thread and this will be the last thing I'll post here.
AF

"Like, whatever, man. I'm right and you're wrong because I say so.

Now I'm going to leave before you can argue against that so that I'll feel like I won."

On S8 AP1 vs S9 AP2: Okay, I'll do the math, just for you.

S8 AP1 vs AV14:
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 6 to glance (16.6~67% of shots that hit glance-- a total of 11.116~67% of shots glance)
Roll 6 for wreck (16.6~67% of shots that glance wreck-- a total of ~1.85% of all shots wreck)
Total percentage: 1.8% of all S8 AP1 shots destroy AV14
S8 AP1 vs AV13
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 6 to penetrate (16.6~67% of all shots that hit penetrate-- a total of 11.11% of all shots penetrate)
Roll 4+ to destroy (50% of all shots that penetrate destroy-- a total of 5.55% destroying)
Roll 5 to glance (16.6~67% of shots that hit glance-- a total of 11.116~67% of shots glance)
Roll 6 for wreck (16.6~67% of shots that glance wreck-- a total of ~1.85% of all shots wreck)
Total percentage: 7.4% of all shots destroy AV13

S9 AP2 vs AV14:
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 6 to penetrate (16.6~67% of all shots that hit penetrate-- a total of 11.116~67% of all shots penetrate)
Roll 5+ to destroy (33.3~34% of all shots that penetrate destroy-- a total of 3.705% of all shots destroy)
Total percentage: 3.7% of all Lascannon shots destroy AV14
S9 AP2 vs AV13:
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 5+ to penetrate (33.3~34% of all shots that hit penetrate-- 22.22% of all shots penetrate)
Roll 5+ to destroy (33.3~34% of all shots that penetrate destroy-- 7.41% of all shots destroy)
Total percentage: 7.4% of all Lascannon shots destroy AV13
I did the math.

Even though both have a low chance of destroying per shot, the S9 AP2 has a better chance of destroying AV14 than the S8 AP1. Against AV13, they have roughly the same chance of destroying (my math had S9 AP2 as 0.01% higher, but that was probably due to rounding).

You are wrong.


On the cost of Sisters: Your answer was nonsensical and flies in the face of reality. You basically just proclaimed "acts of faith!" as if that somehow explained everything as some weird sort of panacea. You are not talking to some random newbie who has never played the army before, nor someone inexperienced in debate. So do not attempt to use such arguments.


On the Canoness: So? Even just looking at mathhammer-- which itself proves little-- it still does not prove you right.


On your fifth point: That you did not own a codex and had no experience in building and using a Sisters army is obvious (that you have at least a vague grasp on the rules is good, but having the codex in front of you is far more valuable than simply facing off against the army). Apparently you don't own the Space Marine codex either, however. Guess what, AF? Tactical Marines get their veteran sergeant for free. Isn't life fun? They also get ATSKNF for free, their flamer for free, a heavy weapon for free, bolt pistols for free, frag grenades for free, krak grenades for free, combat tactics for free, combat squadding for free, and MEQ for free, too! Oh, wait, you're going to say they pay for all of that with their points costs?

Then drop the double standard. I have no respect for such a logically fallacious argument.


On your closing statement: Come back when you have actually played a Sisters army against a competent opponent, while following the rules strictly by the book. Preferably many times, against a variety of different well-built armies and skilled opponents. A person who just looks at a codex (or hell, doesn't even do that much) and screams "OMGWTFBROKEN"-- what you have been doing this entire thread-- does not make rational, factual arguments.

When people first saw deep striking Land Raiders, they screamed OP too. I didn't. Because I had the foresight to realize that deep striking Land Raiders were melta fodder. Now such a viewpoint is accepted as common knowledge. When people saw the Doom of Malan'tai, they screamed broken then too. I foresaw GW's FAQ, and how to deal with the Doom, and didn't cry "broken" with the rest of the crowd. They're no longer seen as broken by the masses, proving me right once again . And so on and so forth down the entire history of fifth edition, oh, and let's not forget the arguments had in fourth edition shall we?

This may sound arrogant, but rather than viewing it that way, try looking at it this way-- instead of complaining about a faction being "too powerful", go find a way to counter it. It's what I've been doing with my third edition codex for almost ten years. You can learn to do it, too.



edit: Geebuz that's a lot of text. And typos and the need to reorganize it a few times. Mutter mutter stupid housemates using sulphuric acid to unclog the drain so now my eyes are sore from the fumes and I have a nasty headache.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Harrab TH/SS terminators will rip their way through the gaunts. But no that wouldnt show that gaunts were broken. But if you had 4 or 5 more examples of ways in which tyranids were stronger than space marines and could list them all side by side, then the accumulation might.

And the Bloodthirster will rip through the cannoness, who would have also burned through almost her army's faith points.My example was in line with yours yet you still think the cannoness is some demi-goddess who will waltz through the battlefeild killing everything in her path. Are we talking about the same army?

@andrew - Actually, quite the opposite. If you actually take a look at the rules, rex is quite a strong opponent Vs vanilla bloodthirsters. I've taken down 3 in a game with him.

@Candy.man - Yes it was in a campaign based storyline, and yes it was a bloodthirster with special rules and even HIGHER stats. which still proves my point.

Cambak wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Always ask to see their list, and ask to see their codex, and if they refuse, ask the store owner to borrow a copy to check on something.

better yet, do not play against people that wont show you their codex.

Melissia wrote:
When people saw the Doom of Malan'tai, they screamed broken then too. I foresaw GW's FAQ, and how to deal with the Doom, and didn't cry "broken" with the rest of the crowd.

Er...I ID'ed him once with a Lucky Lascannon. Is there some sort of tactic people can use against it other than Mech armies? I play guard, and a creature that drops down into my army and forces leadership tests galore is a pain.

Lord Harrab wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Harrab TH/SS terminators will rip their way through the gaunts. But no that wouldnt show that gaunts were broken. But if you had 4 or 5 more examples of ways in which tyranids were stronger than space marines and could list them all side by side, then the accumulation might.

And the Bloodthirster will rip through the cannoness, who would have also burned through almost her army's faith points.My example was in line with yours yet you still think the cannoness is some demi-goddess who will waltz through the battlefeild killing everything in her path. Are we talking about the same army?

I wish. Canoness would rock my socks.

Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

Melissia wrote:Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

Also known as MORE DAKKA!!!

I've yet to encounter any model or group of models that doesn't cease to be a problem if you throw enough shots/attacks at it.

Melissa your math tutorial is off a bit. You forgot to factor in the glance/destroy factor for the S9 weapon. This would add another 1.85% to the destroy total (the glance factor is the same as before since the Strength factor doesn't enter into the formula). So S9 v AV 13 =~9.2% destroying shots.

I don't think this will convince him that Sisters aren't underpriced. He'll just move onto some other outrageous example.

I had a bunch of other stuff, but Melissia basically covered it all. I will say that I've seen a regular 30 man ork squad (with shootas, mind you) take out Lysander and 5 TH/SS terminators, so if you think the Terms will slaughter a group of Hormagaunts, something is very wrong.

Melissia wrote:Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

I've found this works for just about everything, myself.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:Melissa your math tutorial is off a bit. You forgot to factor in the glance/destroy factor for the S9 weapon. This would add another 1.85% to the destroy total (the glance factor is the same as before since the Strength factor doesn't enter into the formula). So S9 v AV 13 =~9.2% destroying shots.

I don't think this will convince him that Sisters aren't underpriced. He'll just move onto some other outrageous example.

With -2 to your damage roll on a glancing hit, you're not going to destroy anything that has weapons / is mobile. I think they were going for 1 shot 1 kill, so the lascannon is still only getting anywhere on a penetrating hit. The Exorcist can do it because the -2 for glancing is reduced to -1 from the AP1, so it can still destroy on a roll of a 6.\

I do enjoy fielding exorcists, whereas I don't own a single predator for my Space Wolves or Salamanders. In a strange way I find the random number of shots fun, but then again, that's why I started up an Ork army and field Skaven in fantasy!

Melissia wrote:

Draggoon wrote:IG can carry H. Flamers. But only at a company level.

And every single Veteran squad.


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Frazzled wrote:Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

No it won't.

There are other, more important things you want to spend your Faith Points on than a single model which can be shot at by Exorcists. (click here for an explanation of this from a more general standpoint)

1. Maybe the exorcists are shooting at the other greater demons, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders which are also in their midst?
2. Maybe the exorcists are already gone from said greater demons, heralds, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders?

streamdragon wrote:I had a bunch of other stuff, but Melissia basically covered it all. I will say that I've seen a regular 30 man ork squad (with shootas, mind you) take out Lysander and 5 TH/SS terminators, so if you think the Terms will slaughter a group of Hormagaunts, something is very wrong.

Melissia wrote:Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

I've found this works for just about everything, myself.

MOAR DAKKA is the solution? Somebody get this thread into the Tactics forum STAT.

MORE DAKKA is always an appropriate solution.

Frazzled wrote:1. Maybe the exorcists are shooting at the other greater demons, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders which are also in their midst?
2. Maybe the exorcists are already gone from said greater demons, heralds, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders?

If there are three Exorcists, and you use them well-- remember, only one heavy weapon, so they can move 6", turn and fire-- I would think they can survive long enough to kill a couple monstrous creatures. The Soul Grinders present a bit of a problem of course, since they're immune to crew shaken/crew stunned while the Exorcists aren't.

SaintHazard wrote:"Like, whatever, man. I'm right and you're wrong because I say so.

Now I'm going to leave before you can argue against that so that I'll feel like I won."

1+

Only time I will ever aim an Exorcist at AV14 is if I rolled a 6 for missiles and Im feeling lucky. Otherwise you're better off shooting just about anything else.

The tank itself is a psychological weapon. The first time you roll a few 4-6 shots on the missiles, anyone on the receiving end will start fearing them and that opens room for mistakes on their part. Once they realize however that any single glancing hits on them has a 5 out of 6 chances of shutting them down for at least a turn, they lose that impact.

On the predator comparison, it takes 3 weapons destroyed to shut one down. The first weapon destroyed result on an exorcist will force you to look for something to tank shock. Just down all three Exorcist and you killed all the long range support sisters have. Most other armies will still have support through their elites or even troop choices.

A canoness should also never be in melee with a monstrous creature. If she is, it's because something went wrong and that creature didnt die before getting to your lines. She exists to support your troops, coming to help when they get tied up in assault or posing a threat to the enemies heavy support. I've even once used a jump canoness to join a unit of 3 sisters (VSS dead) that were falling back so that I could regroup with light of the emperor and subsequently capture a nearby objective.

If a Bloodthirsters gets close enough to your troops that you have to send in a canoness, no amount of assault support will get her out of there alive considering your opponent probably already has support of his own coming and that would be playing into his game. Move your troops away or in position and let her die in his assault phase so you can shoot it down after.

I also do not understand the concept of "faith points being free". I've read both the Space Marine and Imperial Guard codex and neither of them have point costs for orders and ATSKNF.

It could be argued that IG pay for them by having to buy a Company Command or Platoon Command, but rare are going to be the guard players that dont use at least the first one for one of their HQ choices.

For sisters, you could say that the canoness brings in 2 free faith points. Then it can get expensive. Every VSS with a Book is technically 30 points and contributes 1 faith point. If you sacrifice her to get a faith back, you'd better make sure that faith point will be worth a lot of points since you've gutted your squad's efficiency to a fraction of it's original level.

Voldrak wrote:Only time I will ever aim an Exorcist at AV14 is if I rolled a 6 for missiles and Im feeling lucky.

Remember though, you have to pick your target before you roll the number of missles.

You are right. Im not sure how I managed to confound that "after" with a "before" on my last read through (thought I'd been playing them wrong before and was happy about that new found knowledge... sigh).

That only serves to prove how even more unreliable this tank is compared to it's counter parts in other armies.

Samus_aran115 wrote:My list was..

Kharne
Lightning Claws termies (only 200 points, I thought, what the heck.)
Dreadnought with plasma cannon(ended up trying to dodge exorcist missiles the entire game and only killed a couple sisters)
10 marines, 2 plasma, rhino
10 marines, 2 melta, rhino
5 raptors with 2 flamers

I thought it was an okay list. I tried out some things I don't usually do, like dreads and raptors, kharne and lightning terminators....Owait, that's my whole army!

Its not an okay list. Its rather crap. The sister list was meh aswell to be honest. Thats a very tame sisters army. If you could play the game I could see your list beating it soundly.

Though raptors are pants with 2 meltaguns nevermind 2 flamers. Dreadnoughts for chaos ain't remarkable. Defilers are more rewarding though if you go down that route possesed vindicators are even better.

Chaos Terminators ain't got anything on loyalist storm sheild bambots so I'd swap them for obliterators which are exceptionally flexable and unique to the chaos army. Though if you must take a squad get them a land raider. They need to be transported in otherwise they get killed.

Your core is solid though. I have no problem with it.

Your list didn't beat the sisters cause its a piss poor version of a loyalist force. Get some of the hard chaos marine only units and you give yourself a reason not to use the blue book.

You should see the things you can do with the chaos list. You wouldn't complain about anything else once you first play a twin lash army. Frustrating as hell.