Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ChrisWWII wrote:Note, that reading a physical copy of the Grey Knights codex, the entry for Coteaz says that me makes Inquisitorial Henchmen Troops. Not count as Troops, they are Troops, and they are free from the usual limitations of 2 per Inqusitor.

Without him they are counts as elites but they dont' take a force org slot. If he makes them troops and says nothing more it leaves the wording in a quagmire.


What's the point cost on Cotaez? Need to work out a Ard boys list to prove a point.
HQ=200ish?
120 Sevitors in 40 squads of 3= 120 multi meltas=1200 points
210 Warrior henchmen in 70 squads of 3=210 bolt guns=1050 points
I can cut a few points if Cortez is over 250 points, or add if he is under.

Think more along the lines of HQ: 100ish...

Servitors are awful though. 50% chance to not do anything every turn, BS3, junk armour save and otherwise bad stats. The only good thing with lists like that is that there's 100+ scoring units running towards objectives. Just take Warrior Acolytes with a mix of meltas, plasmas and flamers and go for it.

Coteaz costs 100 points.

What does a list like that do to kill points?

(Or is that not a thing for Hard Boys?)

Table things under a wave of cheap meltas.

Therion wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Note, that reading a physical copy of the Grey Knights codex, the entry for Coteaz says that me makes Inquisitorial Henchmen Troops. Not count as Troops, they are Troops, and they are free from the usual limitations of 2 per Inqusitor.

There's no difference that's why noone paid any attention to that. Just because something is troops doesn't mean that another entirely separate special rule all of a sudden disappears.

Never mind i was thinking you were saying they were elites as well as troops(optionable).

I actually agree with Therion:

Coteaz Changes the 2 Specific bitz; the lack of Selection filling is an entirely different sentence to the one that Coteaz changes. 2 different rules.

Yes they are troops. Because of being troops they are now scoring units. Because of being troops they might be deployed in a certain order in some tournament scenarios. Do they use up one of the six slots on the force organisation chart? No. Why? Because their special rules say so. One thing that has nothing to do with the other. This has been discussed to death in atleast 10 threads both here and on Warseer and there's nothing further to say. It's cut and cry that they don't take any slots as written. If and when GW releases a FAQ/errata about it is anyone's guess. Tournament organisers are already free to house rule and decide anything in any way they see fit.

Sorry i was editing while you were posting; please see my above, edited post.

Specific overules General, so the General Rule here is that 'Inquisitorial Henchmen do not take up slots', the more specific rule here is that 'Coteaz makes Henchmen troops', since Coteaz's rule is more specific, it overules the General rule that Henchmen do not take up slots. With Coteaz, they are Troops choice, and as such you can take a max of 6.

As a Nid player with a penchant for Behemoth Nidzilla lists, the threat of army-wide Force Weapons - even if Shadow will make them forget to finish half their spells - has me very, very worried.

Likewise, the threat of losing half a unit before the assault even begins has my shelf full of unpainted Hormagaunts looking set to remain buried for some time. Rather, the Devilgaunt swarm is looking a little more viable. I've had better fortune with weight of shot than Warp Blasts in forcing MEQs to fail saves.

I'm finding myself considering what to do with my Elite slot that isn't Zoanthropes or Hive Guard.

Ymgarl Genestealers are still unlikely to kill their points worth; they've got a fair crack at wiping out a Term unit (which with Halberds will cripple the Ymgarls in return), which may yield an in-game advantage beyond the points accountancy, but there's too many 'if's and 'maybe's there.

Venomthropes might be worth a look in. Cover to weather the Psybolts, Dangerous Terrain to endanger Incinerator squads? That's in effect inflicting auto Str0 Rending on every member of a squad that charges. Deathleaper might also be an interesting choice, perhaps stymie one of these godlike IC's psypowers. Doomie is out of it, she needs a Spod to make much impact - and even if she did get past the WQ screen, all that S5 small arms is exactly the sort of thing that wipes her out.

If they want to get into a medium range firefight, let's see what a bunch of Screamer Killers with LW Prime can do - with a bunch of Tervigons to shotgun through Onslaught.

I think a Swarmlord with LW Guards is going to be en vogue to act as a Paladin deterrent.

So, I think I might get finishing the models I need for that Termagant Farm list with Swarmlord and Behemoth brood I've been promising myself this past year...

ChrisWWII wrote:Specific overules General, so the General Rule here is that 'Inquisitorial Henchmen do not take up slots', the more specific rule here is that 'Coteaz makes Henchmen troops', since Coteaz's rule is more specific, it overules the General rule that Henchmen do not take up slots. With Coteaz, they are Troops choice, and as such you can take a max of 6.

No the general rule being overriden by Coteaz is 'Inquisitorial Henchmen are elites'.

It's both. It makes Inquisitorial Henchmen 'Troops', and has no other caveats. In the absence of other caveats, you are limited to 6 Troops choices in a standard FOC.

Therion wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Specific overules General, so the General Rule here is that 'Inquisitorial Henchmen do not take up slots', the more specific rule here is that 'Coteaz makes Henchmen troops', since Coteaz's rule is more specific, it overules the General rule that Henchmen do not take up slots. With Coteaz, they are Troops choice, and as such you can take a max of 6.

No the general rule being overriden by Coteaz is 'Inquisitorial Henchmen are elites'.

Ard boys

Coteaz 100 points
120 MM Servitors in 40 squads=1200 points
240 bolt gun henchmen in 40 squads=1200 points

2,500 on the dot.

Sure half the servitors will lock per turn, but the list should still get off 60 BS3 MM shots/turn for 30 MM hits per turn.

Everything is a scoring unit but Coteaz.

Chris there are 2 Specific Rules inherent to the Henchmen:
That they can only be taken 1/Inquisitor.
That they do not take up a Slot.

There are 2 Specific Rules from Coteaz:
Henchman no longer require inquisitors.
Henchman are now troops.

The Lack of Slot filling is not discussed in Coteaz's special rule; the lack of Slot Filling is not specific to Elite.

Assuming that the Henchman availability Rule was not changed in the print copy it says this: "This unit does not use up a Force organization Slot."

Now had that said: "This unit does not use up an Elite Slot", you would be correct; but it does not. by virtue of being henchmen they do not use up Slots of any sort.

Well if that isn't the cheesiest piece of gak...

I guess you're right, but I still think it's ridiculous. I will cry if our local TFG decided to do infinite Chimera/Rhino/Razorback spam.

Just bring Anti-tank weapons and Thank him for the free Kill points

Its not like the infinite Transport list is going to have many models in each of those transports anyways; probably 3 models/transport, half of whom are likely to die in any Explosion results, the remainder of which with die to the smallest of arms fire.

So with Cortez, the first 6 hench units fill troop slots (which means they score), the 7th+ can be taken as non-slot-filling elites (but they can't score and are deployed like Elites), right?

Doctor Optimal wrote:So with Cortez, the first 6 hench units fill troop slots (which means they score), the 7th+ can be taken as non-slot-filling elites (but they can't score and are deployed like Elites), right?

From what people are saying is they don't take troop slots and they all count as troops.

Doctor Optimal wrote:So with Cortez, the first 6 hench units fill troop slots (which means they score), the 7th+ can be taken as non-slot-filling elites (but they can't score and are deployed like Elites), right?

RAW, with Coteaz you can take unlimited numbers of Henchmen squads as troops.

If you think people are actually going to allow 17 Razorback/Chimera armies, you're crazy.

Fetterkey wrote:If you think people are actually going to allow 17 Razorback/Chimera armies, you're crazy.

Because IG totally can't field 17 chimeras

I'm not a YMDC guy, but "are Troops choices" would seem to mean that they take up a choice-slot, modifying their normal status of not taking up a choice-slot. I read "are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army" to mean that you can take an unlimited number [modifying their usual limitation of only being able to take as many as you have Inquisitors], but "are troops choices" means only the first 6 are troops, the 7th+ are elites choices but don't fill up a slot (so can't be troops, so can't claim objectives).

Like I said, I'm not a YMDC guy, and if the enemy wants to hand me arbitrarily large numbers of killpoints in the form of MSUs, good for them?

By the way, is "book not even on sale yet, but already needing an FAQ to avoid abuse" a new record for GW?

How is the Grey Knights shooting? I mean, do they have a lot of low AP guns avaliable, besides henchmen? If not armies with FnP will still be very effective and will still outnumber the GKs.

Chris and I just went over this: 8 posts up from yours is why you are wrong; The not taking up slots is an inherent rule to henchmen, and is not altered by Coteaz for a couple reasons(found in that post).

With Coteaz; you can get at Max 27 Chimeras(Or 29 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammunition), with Each carrying 3 Acolytes with Boltguns @ 2000 points(You actually have 10 points left to upgrade *something*; 15 for the razorbacks)

You can get 34 bolter Acolytes in Rhinos, with 30 points left for Upgrades(but why would you?)

Mr. DK wrote:How is the Grey Knights shooting? I mean, do they have a lot of low AP guns avaliable, besides henchmen? If not armies with FnP will still be very effective and will still outnumber the GKs.

Actual GK shooting is pretty limited to AP 4-5 range. This doesn't matter because A: they get a bunch of it, can upgrade autocannons to S8 (double strength = ID )and psycannons are rending, and B: they are all armed with force weapons, which are at the very least PWs, and can also Instant death anything that can be instant deathed. FNP doesn't matter against rends or PWs, and doesn't work against ID either. Most FnP units will be assault units, and they won't be getting their FnP where they need it. GKs are pretty decent in CC, force weapons do that. They only will suffer against high I units that either have a great invul, or can spam enough attacks to wipe the GKs so they don't get hit. Most the units that have these qualities are weak against bolter and pyscannon fire.

FNP units are usually more expensive than GKs (DE pain tokens get around this, but whatever). Hell, nobs can be more expensive than a paladin squad (55 pts base, with 2 wounds termie armor, and FNP as an option). Tradition FNP armies/units aren't effective than GKs, and won't even outnumber too often (and when they do, they are weedy like DE are).

Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.

To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).

Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.

To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).

Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA

Kommissar Kel wrote:Chris and I just went over this: 8 posts up from yours is why you are wrong; The not taking up slots is an inherent rule to henchmen, and is not altered by Coteaz for a couple reasons(found in that post).

With Coteaz; you can get at Max 27 Chimeras(Or 29 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammunition), with Each carrying 3 Acolytes with Boltguns @ 2000 points(You actually have 10 points left to upgrade *something*; 15 for the razorbacks)

You can get 34 bolter Acolytes in Rhinos, with 30 points left for Upgrades(but why would you?)

Yes, I saw that. I don't think it's correct though because "Are troops choices" means just that, that they are (now) troops choices (where they weren't earlier).

Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.

Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?

Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.

To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).

Well, GKs can upgrade I, force halberds IIRC, on strike squads it is a 5 pt per model upgrade. Probably not worth it though. The regular sword works fine. No doubt that DC can be a problem, but they cost a ton, base cost is same as basic PAGK (more attacks, but less gear and not pyskers with decent powers), and upgrades can spike them past GKT quite easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Chris and I just went over this: 8 posts up from yours is why you are wrong; The not taking up slots is an inherent rule to henchmen, and is not altered by Coteaz for a couple reasons(found in that post).

With Coteaz; you can get at Max 27 Chimeras(Or 29 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammunition), with Each carrying 3 Acolytes with Boltguns @ 2000 points(You actually have 10 points left to upgrade *something*; 15 for the razorbacks)

You can get 34 bolter Acolytes in Rhinos, with 30 points left for Upgrades(but why would you?)

Yes, I saw that. I don't think it's correct though because "Are troops choices" means just that, that they are (now) troops choices (where they weren't earlier).

Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.

Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?

Many people here like to play in events where your opponents aren't of your choosing, and if the army is legal, then you can play it. This type of argument isn't meant for narrative or casual players, which can be picky about what is and isn't allowed. Being elitist and calling people names doesn't contribute anything.

My opinion on the matter: It seems like you can do it, but I would advice cation... GW is likely to FAQ this, and that is an awful lot of money to dump into an army that is at the whims of the FAQ (ask nid players what they think abou this...) Also it isn't likely to make many friends, considering the social nature of a hobby like this... Having no opponents to play against at the FLGS or your basement is a lonely way to play.

Doctor Optimal wrote:Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.

Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?

I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?

I never said I would do it; I said the rules supported it, I also presented just how many of the transports in question could possibly be taken in a 2000 point list, that list is quite weak, has 0 anti armor and units that would fold faster than some sort of high-speed automatic folding device.

I actually would Take Coteaz and all henchmen; but only as a Narrative counts-as army representing a rogue trader and his personal forces(and probably not necessarily have the strongest choices in the Henchmen units).

You can say they are troops now so they fill Force slots all you want; the rules say otherwise: Coteaz does not in any way remove or alter the sentence "This unit does not use up a Force organization Slot." Therefore they continue to not use up a force organization slot.