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notabot187 wrote:
Many people here like to play in events where your opponents aren't of your choosing, and if the army is legal, then you can play it. This type of argument isn't meant for narrative or casual players, which can be picky about what is and isn't allowed. Being elitist and calling people names doesn't contribute anything.

My opinion on the matter: It seems like you can do it, but I would advice cation... GW is likely to FAQ this, and that is an awful lot of money to dump into an army that is at the whims of the FAQ (ask nid players what they think abou this...) Also it isn't likely to make many friends, considering the social nature of a hobby like this... Having no opponents to play against at the FLGS or your basement is a lonely way to play.

I will agree that the GK codex certainly does seem "written with tournaments in mind" in every possible pejorative sense of that phrase.

As someone in the Other Place said today, the old DH/WH codices had a "Why would Daemonhunters/Witchhunters fight x army?" section, and playing WH/DH would give you access to (honestly, pretty average stat-wise, but fluffy as hell) Troop and HQ choices. It's unfortunate that GW's former goal of collaborative play seems to have been pretty well replaced with adversarial play, Jervis's "Beer and pretzel" protestations to the contrary.


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Kommissar Kel wrote:
I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?

See what I mean?

Kroot Loops wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.

To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).

Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA

Are they cheap and wide spread? ... great...

Beer and pretzel gaming is still adversarial when there is a winner and loser. Trying to win make the game more fun for both players. Being a goldfish (magic the gathering term for a player that doesn't fight back) isn't fun for either.

Also, isn't this game getting a bit too expensive for "beer and pretzel gaming"? I normally associate that with much cheaper and less complicated games. Also the game for some reason is being marketed to age groups that aren't even legal to drink... and teenagers by nature are pretty competitive after all, at least in the US.


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Mr. DK wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.

To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).

Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA

Are they cheap and wide spread? ... great...

They are 5 pts each on basic troops, but honestly probably won't be that widespread, maybe a couple in each unit points allowing. Certainly not full squads of them.

Coteaz allows you to take more than 1 squad of henchies per inquisitor?

Grey Knight Codex, page 86 wrote:
Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army

Grey Knight Codex, page 90 wrote:
For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force orginization slot.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.

Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?

I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?

I never said I would do it; I said the rules supported it, I also presented just how many of the transports in question could possibly be taken in a 2000 point list, that list is quite weak, has 0 anti armor and units that would fold faster than some sort of high-speed automatic folding device.

I actually would Take Coteaz and all henchmen; but only as a Narrative counts-as army representing a rogue trader and his personal forces(and probably not necessarily have the strongest choices in the Henchmen units).

You can say they are troops now so they fill Force slots all you want; the rules say otherwise: Coteaz does not in any way remove or alter the sentence "This unit does not use up a Force organization Slot." Therefore they continue to not use up a force organization slot.

I think this is the balance. GK player therefore still needs to take two troop choices. Presuming these are kitted out properly there will be limited points left for the chimera spam.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.

Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?

I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?

Some people do get offended when you have opinions about the game. I know my current club hates me because I know how the rules interact.

So...I'm amazed that anyone can honestly think you can take unlimited henchmen squads and don't expect it to be FAQ'd in favor of the 6 henchmen argument.

It is so obvious that RAI (and RAW its sort of a toss up) you can only take 6.

Anything else would be so slowed and broken that its not even funny.

ruminator wrote:I think this is the balance. GK player therefore still needs to take two troop choices. Presuming these are kitted out properly there will be limited points left for the chimera spam.

This is another often debated point and in a lot of the rumor threads and discussions on the play-test dex I pointed out that we do not currently have an answer.

For my Coteaz-as-rogue trader list i was planning on making 2 diferent lists; 1 with 2 min Strike squads, both differently kitted(as assigned SM adjuncts; likely from 1-2 different Chapters); and 1 with just henchmen. both lists would be mostly made oup of Acolytes with different Wargear in the henchmen squads with maybe 1-4 more specialized members/squad(And acolyte gear reflecting an overall "purpose" to that squad). Between warrior-kit, special members of each unit, each units Ride, and the Strike squads in the one list; I am not terribly likely to have more than 6 troop choices and my HQ, of course there will be wasted points, but I do that often in my Fluffy armies(assign tasks for units, kitting them appropriately, then having large amounts of those points wasted as I rarely encounter every threat the units are assigned to counter in the same game).

I also just wanted to point out once again that Chimera spam is not as scary as everyone is making it out to be. Sure 6-8 Chimera with well-kitted contents and maybe a few upgrades/Chimera can be scary; but at that point Coteaz allowing infinite Henchman is a moot point anyways.

Depending on What Truesilver armor & Warp stabilization field actually do, I don't expect we will see Chimera that cost more than 70-81 points apiece. Jokero will not often be seen with more than 2/unit(maybe 3), 4 limits the advantages available, 5 Locks you in at Having either a 5+ invul, or infinite Rolling, 6+ means that you never start a game you just Roll for what the Jokero give your unit forever.

Depending on What Truesilver armor & Warp stabilization field actually do

Truesilver armor causes damage to Daemons in close combat with the vehicle and Warp Stabilization Field allows the vehicle to be summoned with The Summoning psychic power (otherwise it can't affect vehicles).

Right, So bare-bones, maybe with Storm bolter and Seachlight. 55-61 points.

@ Kommisar Kel - why is this a point for debate? Henchmen do not take up a slot in the force org chart.

Ergo as per RAW if they cannot take up a slot in the force org chart there is no way they could be counted as taking the compulsary slot in that same chart. You would have to take Coteaz + 2 Troops before you start with the infinite henchmen shennanigans.

That being said, its still broken as all get up and if not FAQ'd out the only limiting factor will be people's budget and/or converting skill for getting hold of that many Bolter-equipped guardsmen and MM Servitors

I personally think Eldar will see a rise in competitive use, simply due to Codex: Grey Knights being full of psykers.

15pts for Runes of Warding that makes you perils if you roll over twelve, with unlimited range?

Sweet.

It seems to be a decided point that RAW WAAC guy can presently throw a couple of grand at GW for a broken beyond belief mid-range leafblower that fills the table with Razorbacks and scoring Melta, only to find the whole lot FAQ'd onto eBay six months down the line. Can we move on?

I've been ruminating on a similar idea to Kel; in my case, and Ordo Xenos & Ad Mech army using a Magos as Cortez (that's what my Dad calls him, and he should know) some other Inq as Kryptman, cybernetic Tyranid servitors as Daemonhosts and Ripley in Loader as a Dreadknight :3

To get back to the central point though, I think my mainline army's painting agenda will be placing S8, Rending, Plasma and Devourers on a higher priority.

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about with these Henchmen shenanigans. I didn't really get to read much of the GK codex, but as a guard player, I can tell you that shoving a bunch of low save GEQ's down the enemies throat doesn't work unless they have *amazing* weapons, which they don't, or they're Stubborn, which they can't be. And if they're mechanized, then that'll be a hell of a parking lot. Rhinos and Chimmys aren't hard to kill.

The old GKs where able to ignore the FOC chart and nothing came of that. yes, bad codex, but thats quite an advantage.

notabot187 wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.

To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).

Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA

Are they cheap and wide spread? ... great...

They are 5 pts each on basic troops, but honestly probably won't be that widespread, maybe a couple in each unit points allowing. Certainly not full squads of them.

Expect to see Purifier squads toting halberds on every or almost every model. They will be a basic upgrade, since Purifiers get them at a discount and have 2 attacks base. Massed I6 force weapon attacks is something very few units want to go near, and when coupled with the Cleansing Flame ability, Purifiers are not going to be a unit you want to mess with in close assault.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:@ Kommisar Kel - why is this a point for debate? Henchmen do not take up a slot in the force org chart.

Ergo as per RAW if they cannot take up a slot in the force org chart there is no way they could be counted as taking the compulsary slot in that same chart. You would have to take Coteaz + 2 Troops before you start with the infinite henchmen shennanigans.

That being said, its still broken as all get up and if not FAQ'd out the only limiting factor will be people's budget and/or converting skill for getting hold of that many Bolter-equipped guardsmen and MM Servitors

Neither does the Emperors Champion Take up an HQ slot, yet he can be your 1 mandatory HQ.

For all those that feel the infinite Henchmen is OP, I say this:

Stop.

Take a deep breath.

Think about it.

63 3-Servitor MM Henchmen units means most of them(around half) will suffer from mindlock, and be useless; worse mindlock effects the Whole unit, not just the servitors.

An army comprised entirely of Cheap transports and Bolter armed acolytes cannot deal with AV over 12 at all and will have some difficulty with AV 11-12.

CSM have been able to do it since 4th edition with Summoned Daemons; Are you afraid of CSM? Do they Win every game and every tourney?

Henchman points are going to start adding up very fast; especially in the power "competitive" builds.

notabot187 wrote:
They are 5 pts each on basic troops, but honestly probably won't be that widespread, maybe a couple in each unit points allowing. Certainly not full squads of them.

I see this as being normal for all upgrades, 2 or 3 units in each squad with swords, maybe one or two with "claws" a halbard or two, this allows you to stack up plasma or melta wounds on single models more easily than with normal marines, giving an extra layer of resilience.

Said it once, say it again. I don't care if it is unlimited, I'm taking 6 units of henchmen max. I doubt I'll take even that, with all the strike squad and troopinator goodness.

From a tau standpoint. The only reasonable defense would be a staggered defense. Have each squad 12 inches from another, the grey knights either split up or all focus on one squad. If they all focus on one then the tau army surrounds and pew pew pews their asses back to the golden throne.

Which won't work with interceptors or holy shunting dreadknights.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Neither does the Emperors Champion Take up an HQ slot, yet he can be your 1 mandatory HQ.

I believe he was specifically FAQ'd that way. Most things that don't take up FOC slot don't count towards your compulsary slots.

According to the INAT FAQ, they do. And I don't believe that the GW FAQs rule on it either way.

The current GW FAQ for Black Templars says he does, I can't find anything in the INAT or GW FAQ that says so either way for summoned daemons

INAT FAQ, page 69 wrote:
IG.93A.01/IG.93B.01 – Q: Can Ministorum Priests or
Techpriest Enginseers be taken as the one mandatory
HQ choice in an Imperial Guard army?
A: Yes they can [clarification].

But that is just for guard. I agree it is FAQ'd that way lot now, but as far as I can tell they haven't done it for CSM. Am I missing something in the CSM book that says they cannot count as the minimum troops?

Artificial: the BT FAQ does not state a BT-specific reason, just that he is an HQ choice and therefore fills the Slot; this is why the INAT made the same ruling on Priests/Techpreists: an extension on the BT ruling. INAT will likely make the same ruling on GK Coteaz henchmen, whether GW does or not.

BT FAQ states:

Q. Can I field the Emperorʼs Champion as my one
compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army?
(p31)
A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is
still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ
requirement.

This, while being in an army-specific FAQ, is a wide-reaching answer: A compulsory selection from the Force organization chart satisfies the required Units whether or not the unit purchased fills an available Slot.

An0moly: The tau hedgerow defense tactic with not work agains bog-standard PAGK; Even set up 30" away from the GK line, with 12 FW and 2 Shield drones; First turn on the GK side the GK Advance 6" to within SB range, Fire 20 Shots, 13.333 shots hit, 8.888 shots wound, 4.444 wounds stick; this is enough woulds to force a Morale test. Depending on how the Stagger is set up the next unit back(or Back and to the side) is not likely to be in Range; the Grey knights could very well just stop moving and trade shots with the Tau units; assuming the FW that were shot first turn passed their Ld 8 Morale test, return fire with 8 pulse Rifle shots(Most suits would still be moving to get into range/Position, Broadsides would be dealing with Armour) 8 shots is 4 hits, which is 2.666 wounds, which is .888 dead GK; the ensuing 18 shots from the grey knights equates to 4 more dead Tau, and another morale test. More than half of the FW unit is now dead. Apply this across several units and the Tau Hedge-row is removed as a threat.

huh, GK out-shoot tau, Who knew?

...and that is the exact reasoning as to why Henchmen do not fill slots but satisfy mandatory troops requirements and therefore making an army of let's say Coteaz and 20 squads of Henchmen and nothing else legal.

Therion wrote:...and that is the exact reasoning as to why Henchmen do not fill slots but satisfy mandatory troops requirements and therefore making an army of let's say Coteaz and 20 squads of Henchmen and nothing else legal.

Indeed.

People who think that you can't have henchmen count as mandatory troops with Coteaz never actually read the FOC rules.

People that think you can only have 6 henchmen squads can't read at all.


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Fetterkey wrote:If you think people are actually going to allow 17 Razorback/Chimera armies, you're crazy.

I think people playing by RAW will. This most likely will include the INATFAQ.

GW might rules change it, but that is far down the line.

Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.