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Sephyr wrote:
So far, I dislike the codex a lot. I hope to be proved wrong after the actual release. It's gimmicky and the fluff is subpar.

Yes, GK are a medium-range army with most of their cooler toys. They also teleport and DS all over the place to suddenly appear in optimal range to unleash torrents of high S fire.

People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot. It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.

If before there was almost no reason to take non-TH/SS termies, now there truly is no reason at all. You might as well glue them together and use them for scenery.

GK don't outgun other marine chapters, they out CC them. The only heavy hitting ranged unit I have seen so far is henchmen with an orangutan, but that unit is going to be either very fragile, very expensive, or both fragile and expensive. Most importantly if all the anti tank melta firepower in a GK army is concentrated in a couple units of non PA henchmen guess who's going to be the bullet magnet?

The army is giong to be at least 20% smaller given all the cool toys they have and expensive cost of everything. That's 20% less firepower and 20% less durability. That would take a 50 model count army down to a 40 model count army. What happens if a gunline can kill 15 models on turn 1, and 10 models on turn 2.

Non GK 50 model count V Gunline
Turn 1 down to 35 models shoot back with 35 models
Turn 2 down to 25 models shoot back with 25 models, and assault next turn.

25 models in the assault, 50 models worth of firepower being returned against the gunline before the assault.

GK 40 model count V Gunline
Turn 1=down to 25 models shoot back with 25 models
Turn 2 down to 15 models, shoot back with 15 models, and assault next turn

15 models in the assault, 35 models worth of firepower being returned against the gunline before the assault.

Final results
GK return 70% of the firepower of a Non GK army by the end of turn 2.
GK have 60% of the number of models ready to assault the gunline, they are higher quality assault units but that doesn't matter against Tau or IG.
GK have 60% the number of remaining wounds left on the battlefield to receive enemy firepower.

Better CC at the cost of less durability and less firepower won't help GK at all against a gunline. GK seem like they are very much at risk of getting tabled by Tau.

I play tested against the book yesterday at 2000. with my Tau. It's not as bad as it looks. Two dreadnights shunted, and got tied up in kroot bubble wrap for a few turns. My block that had 2 krootox in it, dropped a dreadknight in turn two. The other one wiped the kroot just in time to get lit by broadsides.

Those large bases allow to pile on a bunch of attacks with cheap troops.

I ran a hybrid Mech-Gunline list, with a fire base and a mech/battle suit element pulling off to one flank, forcing him to split fire between the two elements. and getting picked apart.

He shunted a squad on the last turn to claim an objective with 2 modesl left in his deployment zone, and promptly went to ground and I couldn't get them off resulting in a draw.

The low target saturation makes markerlights highly effective, but shunt out of their line of sight at the last moment was a very skillful move.

Psychic defenses hurt the army. I see no reason for any army not to take at least a psychic hood now-a-days.
Eldar psychic defenses bone this army. Sure each vehicle can use a psychic power to ignore shakens and stuns, but they also have a 33% to glance themselves.

If the GK are out of vehicles, the Dark Eldar will have a field day with tons of poisoned weapons and enough lances to drop the knights.

Sephyr wrote:People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot.

I disagree. The Possessed CSM, for example, is terrible and never seen on the table. So that comparison is out. The Plague Marine is T5 with FNP, making him four times as resilient as the PAGK to all shooting below S8 and above AP3. That's a big deal.

It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.

The meta game was looking really bleak for Tau last year when BA came out and high model count, FNP, fast jump marine armies started to become a common sight, and an absolute terror against Tau armies. Now with GK coming out things are really starting to look up for Tau.

schadenfreude wrote:The meta game was looking really bleak for Tau last year when BA came out and high model count, FNP, fast jump marine armies started to become a common sight, and an absolute terror against Tau armies. Now with GK coming out things are really starting to look up for Tau.

Yup, Sadly after last 3 books, I think the Railgun is coming off my other hammer head a well. Ion Cannon is just becomming too efficient in the current meta.

sourclams wrote:

Sephyr wrote:People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot.

I disagree. The Possessed CSM, for example, is terrible and never seen on the table. So that comparison is out. The Plague Marine is T5 with FNP, making him four times as resilient as the PAGK to all shooting below S8 and above AP3. That's a big deal.

It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.

The GK army is only going to be 85% of an SM army's size if they are taking, literally, nothing but bare-bones PAGK or it's a mixed force including a lot of inquisition.

There's a lot of places to lose points throughout the codex; expensive HQs, wargear and upgrades, 'big' units like GKTs and DKs... it's going to be a fairly elite army, even by MEQ standards.

I am not worried about GKs too much, as a guard player I think there are a great many counters i could use. Mech up and plasma/melta up, and i have enough low AP and armor to deal with their nasty units. Or just get lots of heavy weapon teams with lascannons, or autocannons, or missile launchers, and just fire them to bits while my mech toys with them. I think they are a very specialized army, and due to that are going to be like normal sm with less models and more nasty stuff in a few areas, such as combat, anti-demon, anti-psyker. If you just focus on making sure their specialization is wasted on cheap guard squads, or shot down, you should be good!

labmouse42 wrote:Psychic defenses hurt the army. I see no reason for any army not to take at least a psychic hood now-a-days.
Eldar psychic defenses bone this army. Sure each vehicle can use a psychic power to ignore shakens and stuns, but they also have a 33% to glance themselves.

I'm pretty sure that your wrong on this. You realize it only glances itself on the roll of a 2 and 12, and that the most likely outcomes on a 2d6 are 7, 6 and 8, and 5 and 9, with 7 being the most likely, 6 and 8 being the next most likely numbers, and then 5 and 9 being again the next most likely numbers. Assuming that the transport is LD10, you will rarely see the power fail.

Footsloggin wrote:I'm pretty sure that your wrong on this. You realize it only glances itself on the roll of a 2 and 12, and that the most likely outcomes on a 2d6 are 7, 6 and 8, and 5 and 9, with 7 being the most likely, 6 and 8 being the next most likely numbers, and then 5 and 9 being again the next most likely numbers. Assuming that the transport is LD10, you will rarely see the power fail.

Eldar have an upgrade for their farseer called "Runes of Warding" This causes enemy psykers to make tests on 3d6, and if a 12 or greater is rolled then they take perils of the warp. See page 26 of the eldar codex.

That is what bones the psyker heavy armies. Mephiston casting 3 powers per turn can kill himself on turn 2 (rare, but it can happen)
http://www.ogmiosproject.org/articles/stattables.html

I did not realize you were referring to the Farseer's runes in that scenerio as well, I apologize.

Therion wrote:

And what IG have for defense?

IG have WH Inquisitors that are perfectly legal. Additionally, armies like mech IG couldn't care less if the Marines they're facing this time have force weapons or not. It's just another day in the life of a leafblower.

The revised WH pdf-dex removes the rules for mixed armies, Inquisitors only join other armies in Apoc games now.

lindsay40k wrote:

Therion wrote:

And what IG have for defense?

IG have WH Inquisitors that are perfectly legal. Additionally, armies like mech IG couldn't care less if the Marines they're facing this time have force weapons or not. It's just another day in the life of a leafblower.

The revised WH pdf-dex removes the rules for mixed armies, Inquisitors only join other armies in Apoc games now.

No the pdf WH copy dosen't have the rules. But, the print copy dose, and as GW says the pdf DOSEN'T replace the print copy in anyway.

Until they actually errata the Witchhunter's Codex, anyone who owns a physical copy can still take an allied WH Inquisitor Lord.

Yes, they omitted the rules from the pdf, but that means nothing for the actual hard copy unless they post an errata.

Oh, naughty. Hmm, might use a WH inq as my Genestealer Magus after all. /threadjack

Yeah, until they either errata it out or print a new codex, its still there.

That being said, It wouldn't surprise me if they took the easy way out and errata'd the WH Codex to coincide with the release of C:GK to remove the Allies rule all together.

I didn't see a single grey knight power that IG or Tau should be scared of. They have some really scary powers, but I didn't see any that would be good against mech IG or mech Tau. What do they need psychic defense from?

What do they need psychic defense from?

Fortitude. Essentially it costs 5 points per Razorback. They can get 17 into 2000 points. Well, they can get a couple more but that would be at the expense of the 51 special weapons.

Im not getting the 'Orks and Tyranids will suffer' thing.

Right now, it looks like the best GK army will be made up mostly of PAGK. You won't see many units of termies and even less Paladins. If you do see a lot, then you're looking at a very low model count army which can be ovecome with numbers.

If you see only PAGK then just swamp them with basic horde troops. It looks like GK will only be a short to medium range army so you'll be able to get relatively close before lots of gunfire hits you. And then it will be the rule of if they have to roll enough saves, power armour or not, they'll take wounds. GK don't have FNP (outside of Paladins), they've lost fearless, lost true grit, have a lower BS rating so they'll be easier to charge into.

Don't get me wrong, no GK player will just stand in one spot and wait to be overcome but don't put points into things like nobs, just get tonnes and tonnes of cheap troops and overwhelm them. Crude, basic, simple. Boring as well, perhaps but valid.

A 10-man GK squad will pump out 20-ish shots(less with Incinerators, more with Psilencers/Psycannons) @ 24" and less; when you get really close the incinerators will eat many of your troops. that is all @ BS 4 so you can expect roughly 13 of those 20 shots to hit and between 1/2 and 2/3 of those to wound, those basic troops will not get an armor save, and are not likely to get very good cover saves(as those in front will be targeted).

For Nids and Green tide, I direct your attention to the Purifiers, who's psychic power will maim many a horde unit. It may only be one unit who has the power, however, I know that I will have at least one in my army...

My response to Grey Knights, I think will be firing line. Prickly Blobs (20~30 man blobs with autocannons/missile launchers, power swords and Commissars), backed up with heavy tanks and lascannons galore. Low model count should mean that I'll hurt them heavily while they're closing on me, and if they get too close for comfort, it's always possible to tarpit with the blobs for a turn or 2.

mrfantastical wrote:IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?

I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.

Except how can 6-10 space marines take down 20-30 ork boyz? Take all those points you put into nobs and put them into boyz in trukks battlewagons anything and throw em at em. That will bog them down indefinitely.

tldr wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?

I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.

Except how can 6-10 space marines take down 20-30 ork boyz? Take all those points you put into nobs and put them into boyz in trukks battlewagons anything and throw em at em. That will bog them down indefinitely.

not against purifiers auto hitting 4+ wound on every model b4 combat? and orks with a 6+? if i remember correctly

20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.

30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.

The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.

Purifiers shouldn't be that big a deal to Nids - considering that Hormaguants have a 24" threat range they can just assault before they can even get a shot off.

Footsloggin wrote:20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.

30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.

The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.

This places the 'Ard boyz 4+ 'eavy armor (or even the Mad Dok's 5++ cybork bodies) armor upgrades in a slightly better light.

labmouse42 wrote:Psychic defenses hurt the army. I see no reason for any army not to take at least a psychic hood now-a-days.
Eldar psychic defenses bone this army. Sure each vehicle can use a psychic power to ignore shakens and stuns, but they also have a 33% to glance themselves.

If the GK are out of vehicles, the Dark Eldar will have a field day with tons of poisoned weapons and enough lances to drop the knights.

Poison weapons does not work well with model with T4 or lower. Reminder one shot with a dark lance or three, its a hit or miss. oh here another thing, everybody states that i bring this and that for this army, but forget about one thing......there are several different armies out there, that will be able to handle your army.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Purifiers shouldn't be that big a deal to Nids - considering that Hormaguants have a 24" threat range they can just assault before they can even get a shot off.

Hormies have a 13-18in threat range, not a 24" threat range, and that leaves them one turn to be blown to *insert diety/non diety here* knows what out of them, and then, if the purifiers are in cover, they not only get their Psychic power, which will kill off almost half of the squad, but will strike first thanks to freaking Robin Cruddace thinking that an assault army doesn't need assault grenades!

Assuming that they fire into the gaunts first:

If no psybolts are taken:

BS: 4
20 Storm bolter shots, 14 hits, 9.8(roughly) wounds, 9.8 dead gaunts... Not too bad, but you just lost at least 1/3 of your unit.

If psybolts are taken:

Bs: 4
20 Storm bolter shots, 14 hits, 12.25 wounds, 12.25 dead gaunts... Worse...

So, while Nids will not be unable to swarm GK, Purifiers will be a pain in the side of those who do play Nid swarm.

Going back to the "GKs will suffer due to having such a low model count" issue:

10x Tactical Marine w/Melta, Multi-Melta, Powerfist SGT w/combi-Melta, Rhino w/EA
270pts

10xGrey Knight w/2xPsycannon, Psybolts, Rhino (with free equialent of Daemonic Possession)
275pts

Different loadouts, yes, but both are troops with a decent bit of added gear. The point difference doesn't clear 3%.

You can refine it further by getting their version of meltavets. Also, their rifleman dreads with psy ammo (4 twin-linked s8 shots) for a steal have been brought to my attention. So maybe they won't even lack ranged anti-mech options.

Another question: is the lesser model count (which I don't see happening just yet unless you go hog-wild on upgrades) going to be more significant than the number of models that usually never see combat because they got killed at range, in exploding tansports, and so on?

Remember that these guys teleport around a lot. Given teleporters, Stormravens, psyker tricks (summoning?) and transports immune to 1/3rd of the damage chart, I'd say a larger percentage of their force will get to be in active range of the enemy than other armies.