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alarmingrick wrote:

And what IG have for defense?

Remember that the WH codex still has Allies rules, and IG can still take a WH Inq Lord with Hood for total table coverage psy def.

It's not a great option, but if psydef becomes "necessary" IG do have options.

sourclams wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

And what IG have for defense?

Remember that the WH codex still has Allies rules, and IG can still take a WH Inq Lord with Hood for total table coverage psy def.

It's not a great option, but if psydef becomes "necessary" IG do have options.

Ah, but for how long? i really feel they had a chance to address that problem when they released the Codex.
all they had to do was give the Primaris access to a Psychic hood and problem solved, imho. okay maybe not solved,
but better than nothing.

my opinion of the GK biggest weekness is low model count.

But most of the GK power's don't mean anything to guard. S5 storm bolters, I'm all AV 12 on the front. Warpquake, we don't deepstrike (not usually anyways). Astral Aim, it's ok but not game changing. All insta death, overkill against guard.

Most of the most henouis psychic powers, in all armies, just don't work against mech. Chimeras are their own form of psychic defense.

And what IG have for defense?

IG have WH Inquisitors that are perfectly legal. Additionally, armies like mech IG couldn't care less if the Marines they're facing this time have force weapons or not. It's just another day in the life of a leafblower.

I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.

Purifiers are crazy good against pretty much everything in close combat, but that's about it. Crowe lists that go all out with Purifiers will then serve as hard counters to some types of lists but they'll have plenty of hard counters themselves. On/off armies like that generally don't do well at tournaments.

Time will tell if purifiers will be as deadly and well played as they could be, no doubt.

I think this codex, from what I have seen, kicks Tyranids and Orks in the head. It outclasses other marines with the exception of Space Wolves, so they'll have to fight an uphill battle to win.

Guard and Dark Eldar should do well against them. Not sure about Eldar.

Chaos never had anything good anyways.

I think that the new GK codex is very balenced and that if played well they can overcome their weaknesses, but as far as i can tell the weaknesses of the grey knights are:

They are marines. Anything that kills marines will kill grey knights. Power weapons, plasma, missile launchers, whatever.

Cost. Basic grey knights cost something like 25% more than regular marines. This means there will be less of them then in most other armies.

No meltaguns that are not on vehicles or BS3. Warrior acolytes are definitely competitive, but not having meltaguns on greyknghts means they have to rely on psycannons to destroy vehciles. This works agaisnt transports, but is annoying against AV 13-14.

They are all psykers. Anything that is good against psykers will be good against them. Grey Knights VS. Grey Knights games should be really gruesome, but other armies also have some psychic defence. 1 rune priest or librarian within 24" inches of the them will shut down half their powers, which should help.

What this means:

In general, when fighting Grey Knights:

Avoid assaulting them. Yeah...they all have nemesis force weapons. Stay away from those.

Shoot them to death. Once they get to you, unless you are a super close combat unit like TH/SS termies, you probably die. So, shoot them a lot. The good armies like Guard, Marines and Dark Eldar can all do this fine. Tyranids are probably doomed (THANK GOD for shadow in the warp...but still), and so are green tide style orks, but that orks are a weak army anyway. Tau will probably lose about as much VS grey knights as they do other armies since they already fold in CC, and necrons suck until their new book comes out, so they don't matter right now. When they do come out i'm sure they'll shoot GKs to death just fine. Eldar and CSM are pretty weak against good marine lists anyway, so not much has changed there either (Nurgle armies are extra screwed, though, lol). Funnily enough, Chaos Daemons are not that bad off unless the GK player takes a lot of the specifically anti-daemon items. Rerolls to hit suck, but internal warrior and inv saves avoid most of the nemesis weapon effects, and LD 10 makes instant death somewhat rare.

Avoid using rock units against them. This is part of the whole not assaulting thing, but GKs are going to be especially good against units like Nob bikers and TWC because of their nemesis weapons instant killing models if they pass their LD test. Wound allocation is great fun until your models start dying from the first failed invul save. TT/SS terminators probably be about as useful as they are now, since they only have 1 wounds anyway, and inv saves are all you get against them anyway...

Make sure your units are in transports. If you haven't figured out by now that mech is the way to go, you will want to mech up now, as you want as much mobility and protection as possible, especially since grey knights are weaker vs vehicles than other armies.

Bring psychic Defense. This is a good idea most of the time anyway, but rune priests and librarians will be very useful against grey knights.

If haf of what you say here is true then it is just lovley. They will bend/break the "basic rules of the game" the same way dark eldar and deamons do. Playing a game with one of those armies just feels like a diferent playstyle then all the rest. If the greyknights show up with 25% less marines on the table they really have to work overtime.

I can't wait to se what they will do with the necron codex. :-)

Grey knights are going to be a medium range assault army. They want to stay in 24" of you to shoot you, and taunt you into assaulting their force weapons.

I am looking forward to shooting them to death with my Space Wolves. Missile launchers, las/plas and melta will kill them just as easily as they kill everything else. The only real difference is that I won't be able to live very long in assaults, which sucks, but we'll see how it goes. I personally cannot wait.

DakkaDakka wrote:

It's the same old song every time a new book comes out.

Wait and see how it plays out on the reality of the table top before making any snap judgments. I bet it's not nearly as bad as people think.

I look forward to another powerful army in the game, it will mix things up.

BA should do well against this codex, furisoso and dcompany dreads will eat most choices or tie them up forever, and anything charging in with a lot of attacks, like dcompany, lc termies. 10 man assualt squads and whatnot will beat knights in combat. Even going simultaneous it will be a tonne of attacks and speed seems to be a weakness in the GK codex, Eldar with their runes of course hamstring all the neat little psy abilities quite well.

Cerebrium wrote:As much as people would like you to believe "NOTHING CAN BEAT THEM I'M GOING TO QUIT 40K BECAUSE OF THIS WAAAAAAAAARD", they've got the same weaknesses as a normal space mairne army, and then some. They really won't hold up against hordes, there's only so much they can do in one turn, which is significantly less than, say, Tyranids or Orks. Also, anything with AP3 or less will sweep the board of power armour.

WOW, where do you get your information from, becuase i would like to know where the BS that you are being fed.


Players of 40k, if you know anything about the gaming enviroment you know that it would at less take about 3 months before the we really would know the in's and out's of the GK Codex. This was the same for the other codex, BA.SW and DE. Players are still crying over how OP the SW codex, and every other codex that seems to be broken. Rememebr that its not only the Codex, but the player behind it.

I'm not too afraid. A little Defiler Battlecannon here and there, shoot 'em up with my Vindicators, while marines can clean up remains. Mark of Slaanesh on Lightening Claw Terminators or power weapon Chosen? OP as hell. Remember the scare when Dark Eldar was coming out? Rinse and repeat.

doubled wrote:BA should do well against this codex, furisoso and dcompany dreads will eat most choices or tie them up forever, and anything charging in with a lot of attacks, like dcompany, lc termies. 10 man assualt squads and whatnot will beat knights in combat. Even going simultaneous it will be a tonne of attacks and speed seems to be a weakness in the GK codex, Eldar with their runes of course hamstring all the neat little psy abilities quite well.

Don't rely too much on furious charge. GK's can take nemesis force halberds which give them +2 I. It's free on terminators but cost 5pts on regular PAGK's.

Eldar is probably one of the few armies which has a strong advantage over the knights with their Runes of Warding and Wave Serpents ignoring rending.

Justus wrote:I'm not too afraid. A little Defiler Battlecannon here and there, shoot 'em up with my Vindicators, while marines can clean up remains. Mark of Slaanesh on Lightening Claw Terminators or power weapon Chosen? OP as hell. Remember the scare when Dark Eldar was coming out? Rinse and repeat.

A lot of GK squads are going to be striking at I6 (or even 10), so if you're bringing those units up as counters you probably ought to re-think your "usual" counters.

jcd386 wrote:I think that the new GK codex is very balenced and that if played well they can overcome their weaknesses, but as far as i can tell the weaknesses of the grey knights are:

They are marines. Anything that kills marines will kill grey knights. Power weapons, plasma, missile launchers, whatever.

Cost. Basic grey knights cost something like 25% more than regular marines. This means there will be less of them then in most other armies.

No meltaguns that are not on vehicles or BS3. Warrior acolytes are definitely competitive, but not having meltaguns on greyknghts means they have to rely on psycannons to destroy vehciles. This works agaisnt transports, but is annoying against AV 13-14.

They are all psykers. Anything that is good against psykers will be good against them. Grey Knights VS. Grey Knights games should be really gruesome, but other armies also have some psychic defence. 1 rune priest or librarian within 24" inches of the them will shut down half their powers, which should help.

What this means:

In general, when fighting Grey Knights:

Avoid assaulting them. Yeah...they all have nemesis force weapons. Stay away from those.

Shoot them to death. Once they get to you, unless you are a super close combat unit like TH/SS termies, you probably die. So, shoot them a lot. The good armies like Guard, Marines and Dark Eldar can all do this fine. Tyranids are probably doomed (THANK GOD for shadow in the warp...but still), and so are green tide style orks, but that orks are a weak army anyway. Tau will probably lose about as much VS grey knights as they do other armies since they already fold in CC, and necrons suck until their new book comes out, so they don't matter right now. When they do come out i'm sure they'll shoot GKs to death just fine. Eldar and CSM are pretty weak against good marine lists anyway, so not much has changed there either (Nurgle armies are extra screwed, though, lol). Funnily enough, Chaos Daemons are not that bad off unless the GK player takes a lot of the specifically anti-daemon items. Rerolls to hit suck, but internal warrior and inv saves avoid most of the nemesis weapon effects, and LD 10 makes instant death somewhat rare.

Avoid using rock units against them. This is part of the whole not assaulting thing, but GKs are going to be especially good against units like Nob bikers and TWC because of their nemesis weapons instant killing models if they pass their LD test. Wound allocation is great fun until your models start dying from the first failed invul save. TT/SS terminators probably be about as useful as they are now, since they only have 1 wounds anyway, and inv saves are all you get against them anyway...

Make sure your units are in transports. If you haven't figured out by now that mech is the way to go, you will want to mech up now, as you want as much mobility and protection as possible, especially since grey knights are weaker vs vehicles than other armies.

Bring psychic Defense. This is a good idea most of the time anyway, but rune priests and librarians will be very useful against grey knights.

They're scary, but every single GK that goes down is going to make them die on the inside.

Justus wrote:I'm not too afraid. A little Defiler Battlecannon here and there, shoot 'em up with my Vindicators, while marines can clean up remains. Mark of Slaanesh on Lightening Claw Terminators or power weapon Chosen? OP as hell. Remember the scare when Dark Eldar was coming out? Rinse and repeat.

And you shouldn't be. Lash and oblits will still work wonders on any MEQ build.

You do, however, have to watch out for Nemesis force halberds, which give the knights I6. Also, watch out for psyk-grenades, which reduces daemons and psykers to I1 in assault.

Similarly, I'm not that afraid. Massed lascannons to take down Dreadknights and Terminators from far away, battlecannons to shred PAGKK squads....my only worries will be about them getting too close to my firing line, and I have blob squads for tarpitting purpouses. I'm much more worried about possible Inquisition meching though...

Reecius wrote:I look forward to another powerful army in the game, it will mix things up.

Excellent observation and I completely agree.

I think that the best defense for chaos will be oblits and to a lesser extent plasma armed marines doing rhino drivebys. I would just rely on killing as much as possible with plasma at range and asssault only if needed.

Gavo wrote: Daemons are essentially screwed against them

Imagine that...

Which in all honesty is my biggest complaint about the Grey Knights as a whole...they are a hard counter to another army. I liked them better as a special add on unit you could get that was particularly good at fighting daemons. I think a better way to do Grey Knigths would be to make them basically an Imperial equivalent of Eldar Harlequins....ah well, that's just my thoughts. I'll stop dragging the thread OT now.

Ok, it's been 2 pages and nobody's said it.

The weakness of the Grey Knights codex is Matt Ward's fluff. BAM!

I reserve judgment until I play them on the tabletop. There is paperhammer 40k and Warhammer 40k.

What do you expect from Mat Ward? Something Balanced?

I read that codex page for page and I did not like it one bit. Already there are people making those "lists" that I simply dread.

Now what people are completely forgetting is the amount of terrain on the game board.

Because of 5th Ed, more often than not there is more that 25% of terrain on a standard gaming board. This means a lot of +4 cover saves against those so called +3AP or better attacks. A smart player uses cover to their advantage, and I certainly believe that many experienced players building the GK army have already thought about how to deal with shooty armies.

Be sensible with your terrain placement if allowed, if not then Shooty armies are going to need to make sure that they are mobile enough to shoot at that army at all angles.

I will say with some satisfaction, Nids will give them a hard time, secondly DE should as well.

My ork army is not built like some the rest that is posted on this site.

I have 45 lootas in 3 battle wagons with lobbas for starters, but that is way down my list of painting.

My pre-heresy SW army comes first and I'll throw that against this GK Army and see what happens.

I'll probably get curbed stomped but heh I have a fluff army, I'm expecting to be owned.

mrfantastical wrote:IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?

I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.

DE have the cruisible of malediction, which could end up killing a whole lot of grey knights, but its one use only and one per army
other than that they have what, TGL on raiders? That will work real well.

I dont feel DE will have much of a problem, but its not like DE have psyker defense.


Wyches do pretty well in assault with the high Int, 4++, Shardnets, and overall low cost.

Disintigrators and DL spam will be great

I think what they lack is still long range firepower, seems like by design as well. They are not expected to hang back in a gunline like Tau or IG, they are expected to rush their enemy and assault.

IG and Tau have no psychic defense. Without any psychic defense that means IG and Tau have no chance of beating Grey Knights in CC. That being said IG and Tau having no psychic defense is completely meaningless with the 1 exception of a power blob army going up against a ton of purifiers.

Grey knights cost more, have less models, and with the lower model count have less firepower than other marine armies. That's good news for IG, Tau, DE, and Mechdar.

Dreadnights would go down fast to a CCS doing bring it down on themselves for 8 TL plasmagun shots at BS4. Fire dragons or wraithguard would also do the trick.

Flashlights, Chimera spam, Pulse rifles, and bladestorm will chew up regular PAGK.

PAGK are no better than tac marines in CC against DE wyches. Both are 1 attack models swinging at a 4+ invo.

So far, I dislike the codex a lot. I hope to be proved wrong after the actual release. It's gimmicky and the fluff is subpar.

Yes, GK are a medium-range army with most of their cooler toys. They also teleport and DS all over the place to suddenly appear in optimal range to unleash torrents of high S fire.

People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot. It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.

If before there was almost no reason to take non-TH/SS termies, now there truly is no reason at all. You might as well glue them together and use them for scenery.