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Hulksmash wrote:Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.

As many new book nids players can attest, just don't buy armies until the FAQ... All kidding aside, gimmick builds aren't fun to play long term. They are exposed to the fact that everybody hates them (and thus are FAQ fodder), and their one dimensional play gets old. Also good luck finding pick up games with some of the silly lists people are purposing. Its like playing 50 individual obliterators in apoc, or an apoc army of 1 character and all orbital bombardments, it may be legal, doesn't mean anybody will play you (sad I had to go to apoc to find anything crazy enough to even compare to this lol)

notabot187 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.

As many new book nids players can attest, just don't buy armies until the FAQ... All kidding aside, gimmick builds aren't fun to play long term. They are exposed to the fact that everybody hates them (and thus are FAQ fodder), and their one dimensional play gets old. Also good luck finding pick up games with some of the silly lists people are purposing. Its like playing 50 individual obliterators in apoc, or an apoc army of 1 character and all orbital bombardments, it may be legal, doesn't mean anybody will play you (sad I had to go to apoc to find anything crazy enough to even compare to this lol)

Agreed.
Anyone who takes an MSU spam henchman army by abusing a rule, that frankly IMO, should be FAQ'd is only going to get one game in. That game being the first, after that everyone in my local area will flat-out refuse to play that army.
Although... Necrons running multiple monoliths would have a field day hitting all those units with D6 shots each.

dayve110 wrote:Necrons running multiple monoliths would have a field day hitting all those units with D6 shots each.

I'm now wishing my Doom of Malan'tai didn't have a cap on the number of W it could store

As many have mentioned, they are still just a marine army, albeit with some powerful rules
What I'm most excited about is how cool my next chaos codex might be potentially because of it
S5 thousand sons bolters? Probably
Awesome chainaxes and power weapons on berserkers? Yup
Cheaper elite models? Yes
Ahriman game breakingly powerful? Definitely
On the note of grey knights however, I think the thing that scares me most is that their models with power weapons and s5 stormbolters cost the same as my berserkers, potentially cheaper since they aren't paying for the expensive champ and fist

Darien13 wrote:As many have mentioned, they are still just a marine army, albeit with some powerful rules
What I'm most excited about is how cool my next chaos codex might be potentially because of it
S5 thousand sons bolters? Probably
Awesome chainaxes and power weapons on berserkers? Yup
Cheaper elite models? Yes
Ahriman game breakingly powerful? Definitely
On the note of grey knights however, I think the thing that scares me most is that their models with power weapons and s5 stormbolters cost the same as my berserkers, potentially cheaper since they aren't paying for the expensive champ and fist

Speaking as a CSM playes that would benefit if Berserkers became Death Company minus the rage rule in the next 'dex, I'd rather they didn't go overboard. If they follow the same rules mentality they have shown in the recent Dark Eldar and Nid codices, I'll be happy enough: varied armies, units that are great at what they are supposed to do but not universal answers to most or all all tactical issue or severely outperform specialized units on other armies.

I mostly play with a large circle of steady friends. I'm not out to annoy them by fielding tricky armies. Give me a tall chain-axe and and a loyalist to swing it at, and I'll be set!

I already don't want to play against this new army

Devilduckii wrote:I already don't want to play against this new army

Then you're overreacting. Take a little bit of Plasma and a Lascannon or two, and the Grey Knights are all ready gaking themselves in terror.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:@ Kommisar Kel - why is this a point for debate? Henchmen do not take up a slot in the force org chart.

Ergo as per RAW if they cannot take up a slot in the force org chart there is no way they could be counted as taking the compulsary slot in that same chart. You would have to take Coteaz + 2 Troops before you start with the infinite henchmen shennanigans.

That being said, its still broken as all get up and if not FAQ'd out the only limiting factor will be people's budget and/or converting skill for getting hold of that many Bolter-equipped guardsmen and MM Servitors

Neither does the Emperors Champion Take up an HQ slot, yet he can be your 1 mandatory HQ.

For all those that feel the infinite Henchmen is OP, I say this:

Stop.

Take a deep breath.

Think about it.

63 3-Servitor MM Henchmen units means most of them(around half) will suffer from mindlock, and be useless; worse mindlock effects the Whole unit, not just the servitors.

An army comprised entirely of Cheap transports and Bolter armed acolytes cannot deal with AV over 12 at all and will have some difficulty with AV 11-12.

CSM have been able to do it since 4th edition with Summoned Daemons; Are you afraid of CSM? Do they Win every game and every tourney?

Henchman points are going to start adding up very fast; especially in the power "competitive" builds.

Math hammer.

60MM servitors have a 50% chance of mindlock. Average of 30 will mindlocks, of those 30 servitors 15 of their shots will hit.

For a slight increase in cost a metla armed acolyte costs 4 more points than a servitor. For the same cost of 60 servitors one could buy 27 MM armed acolytes (9 MSU) and 21 servitors (7 MSU) for under 600 points.

MSU 3 plasma gun acolyte squads cost 42 for 3 plasma guns, or 420 for 30 plasma guns.

Multi Melta vehicle bits go for as little as 2 for $1 on ebay, and GW sells metal melta guns at $1.60 (5 for $8)

Bolters go for about 10 for $1 on ebay

Offhand as a conversion project if I were to model the army as a grot rebellion by converting lobotomized orks into servitors and night goblins into acolytes it would look like this.

Cortez= Big mek, or little mek if I convert a grot
30 MM Servitors (10 MSU) (converted orks) cost=$15 minimum for ebayed MM parts
30 melta acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$48 fixed buying parts straight from GW
30 Plasma acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$49.50 fixed buying parts straight from GW
108 Bolt gun acolytes (36 MSU) converted night goblins cost= $10.80

Total cost to convert my orks and night goblins right now would be about $124 rounded up with about $24 of those dollars being from ebay so if we triple the ebay costs to $75 for "shipping" the total cost is still only $175.

1740 point army with 30 MM servitors (only 15 will mindlock per turn) 30 melta acolytes, 30 plasma acolytes, and 108 bolt gun acolytes. Model count of 199, 77 MSU

Cost just isn't a factor. Also note if it's being done as a grot rebellion night gobbos the are incredibly cheap to convert.

It's only going to be a net list, because if it actually pops up it's going to be FAQ'd into the realm of the lost and the damned.

schadenfreude wrote:Math hammer.

60MM servitors have a 50% chance of mindlock. Average of 30 will mindlocks, of those 30 servitors 15 of their shots will hit.

For a slight increase in cost a metla armed acolyte costs 4 more points than a servitor. For the same cost of 60 servitors one could buy 27 MM armed acolytes (9 MSU) and 21 servitors (7 MSU) for under 600 points.

MSU 3 plasma gun acolyte squads cost 42 for 3 plasma guns, or 420 for 30 plasma guns.

Multi Melta vehicle bits go for as little as 2 for $1 on ebay, and GW sells metal melta guns at $1.60 (5 for $8)

Bolters go for about 10 for $1 on ebay

Offhand as a conversion project if I were to model the army as a grot rebellion by converting lobotomized orks into servitors and night goblins into acolytes it would look like this.

Cortez= Big mek, or little mek if I convert a grot
30 MM Servitors (10 MSU) (converted orks) cost=$15 minimum for ebayed MM parts
30 melta acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$48 fixed buying parts straight from GW
30 Plasma acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$49.50 fixed buying parts straight from GW
108 Bolt gun acolytes (36 MSU) converted night goblins cost= $10.80

Total cost to convert my orks and night goblins right now would be about $124 rounded up with about $24 of those dollars being from ebay so if we triple the ebay costs to $75 for "shipping" the total cost is still only $175.

1740 point army with 30 MM servitors (only 15 will mindlock per turn) 30 melta acolytes, 30 plasma acolytes, and 108 bolt gun acolytes. Model count of 199, 77 MSU

Cost just isn't a factor. Also note if it's being done as a grot rebellion night gobbos the are incredibly cheap to convert.

It's only going to be a net list, because if it actually pops up it's going to be FAQ'd into the realm of the lost and the damned.

How can it be faq'ed into oblivion? You could still take a ton of mm servitors and plasma acolytes and still do pretty well.

couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff

I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?

alphaomega4ever wrote:couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff

I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?

It's an ancient prerelease codex that has gone through several changes.

We already have a much new version.

Fafnir wrote:

alphaomega4ever wrote:couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff

I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?

It's an ancient prerelease codex that has gone through several changes.

We already have a much new version.

The version he was showing was one of a guy literally having photos of him holding the codex, it was the new one, not the old PDF that got leaked earlier in the month.

Gavo wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

alphaomega4ever wrote:couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff

I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?

It's an ancient prerelease codex that has gone through several changes.

We already have a much new version.

The version he was showing was one of a guy literally having photos of him holding the codex, it was the new one, not the old PDF that got leaked earlier in the month.

That's the one I've been reading. Good quality photos too. The version that alphaomega4ever is talking about, however, sounds a lot like the prerelease codex that we got a while back.

Nah, he had a link up for about a minute before he took it down, he (was) talking about the guy holding a codex.

Please don't post links or information that breaches copyright rules please.

Much obliged.

Well, i'm enjoying this. This is finaly taken the stick off tau!

reds8n wrote: Please don't post links or information that breaches copyright rules please.

Much obliged.

...why i took off the link...thats another debate to be had but i will adhere to rules here...and yes the one i was referencing had full updates (tho some of the edges were blocked off)

Hmmm, harlequins are looking pretty good against the new dex, the shadowseer will keep them safe from nearly all firepower, and they'll be hitting before the halberds, I may have to up the number of squads I run, since I'm gonna be playing against the new GK dex a LOT.

Everyone is talking about shooty list I am sure its due to the metagame, but I like the Grey Knights cc potential anyone else see cc potential?

CKO wrote:Everyone is talking about shooty list I am sure its due to the metagame, but I like the Grey Knights cc potential anyone else see cc potential?

An army full of force weapons and marine stats is always going to have decent CC ability. Their lack of number of attacks is why people are focusing on shooting, so that CC ability will have the volume of attacks to prevail.

imweasel wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Math hammer.

60MM servitors have a 50% chance of mindlock. Average of 30 will mindlocks, of those 30 servitors 15 of their shots will hit.

For a slight increase in cost a metla armed acolyte costs 4 more points than a servitor. For the same cost of 60 servitors one could buy 27 MM armed acolytes (9 MSU) and 21 servitors (7 MSU) for under 600 points.

MSU 3 plasma gun acolyte squads cost 42 for 3 plasma guns, or 420 for 30 plasma guns.

Multi Melta vehicle bits go for as little as 2 for $1 on ebay, and GW sells metal melta guns at $1.60 (5 for $8)

Bolters go for about 10 for $1 on ebay

Offhand as a conversion project if I were to model the army as a grot rebellion by converting lobotomized orks into servitors and night goblins into acolytes it would look like this.

Cortez= Big mek, or little mek if I convert a grot
30 MM Servitors (10 MSU) (converted orks) cost=$15 minimum for ebayed MM parts
30 melta acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$48 fixed buying parts straight from GW
30 Plasma acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$49.50 fixed buying parts straight from GW
108 Bolt gun acolytes (36 MSU) converted night goblins cost= $10.80

Total cost to convert my orks and night goblins right now would be about $124 rounded up with about $24 of those dollars being from ebay so if we triple the ebay costs to $75 for "shipping" the total cost is still only $175.

1740 point army with 30 MM servitors (only 15 will mindlock per turn) 30 melta acolytes, 30 plasma acolytes, and 108 bolt gun acolytes. Model count of 199, 77 MSU

Cost just isn't a factor. Also note if it's being done as a grot rebellion night gobbos the are incredibly cheap to convert.

It's only going to be a net list, because if it actually pops up it's going to be FAQ'd into the realm of the lost and the damned.

How can it be faq'ed into oblivion? You could still take a ton of mm servitors and plasma acolytes and still do pretty well.

The army I listed had 66 troops choices. There is a rules debate of henchmen take a force org when they become troops. If so 66 troops choices are a legal 1750 list, if not a faq can make it an illegal list.

Nobody is going to see it at a flgs, but it might pop up at ard boys or adepticon for 1 of 2 reasons. Somebody just wants to win, or somebody just wants to prove a point and shut down henchmen spam.

Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()

Its all down to how you play

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Just Dave wrote: Actually, I was making a sarcastic comment about all the people screaming about the Codex being broken etc. when it hasn't been released and/or they haven't seen a copy for themselves...

But a lot of people have seen it, you can go into most any store now and see it, most of the more horrifying rumors were true, and some people have already started play testing from it.

I think most armies can still compete against it, but I think it is at the very minimum going to throw a huge wrentch in the meta. Libby's and psychic defense are going to be a must. I think THSS termies will be the GK bane, so they will be even more popular (if that is possible). I think raiders will be hard for builds without inquisitors. Jump heavy blood angels would be good except the whole army has power weapons so you are going to take extreme casualties every time you charge.

I do think it's too early to say it has broken the game, but I think there is more than enough to say this is changing the game.

So... Deathwing/Loganwing/Crusaderwing?

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()

Its all down to how you play

Keep dreaming. Everyone loses.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()

Its all down to how you play

That list sounds considerably mediocre. Most decent players should be able to easily tear through that with little effort.

Fafnir wrote:

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()

Its all down to how you play

That list sounds considerably mediocre. Most decent players should be able to easily tear through that with little effort.

I wouldn't put much credence to his opinion, just read past posts and its pretty clear that he doesn't play much outside his circle of friends.

notabot187 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.

As many new book nids players can attest, just don't buy armies until the FAQ... All kidding aside, gimmick builds aren't fun to play long term. They are exposed to the fact that everybody hates them (and thus are FAQ fodder), and their one dimensional play gets old. Also good luck finding pick up games with some of the silly lists people are purposing. Its like playing 50 individual obliterators in apoc, or an apoc army of 1 character and all orbital bombardments, it may be legal, doesn't mean anybody will play you (sad I had to go to apoc to find anything crazy enough to even compare to this lol)

You mentioned the difference yourself, the new book Tyranid players got shafted by the FAQ..........................eventually. Once they decided to get around the to Blood Angel FAQ anyway. We're Xenos. It's all we get. These guys are more SPESS MUHREENS. They'll get an FAQ in a few hours, and it will say this is legal as well as reducing the points cost and even saying 'oh by the way against Xenos the entire army gets +1 str. Just because'

NINE DREADNOUGHTS!

Mawhahahahahaha!

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()

Its all down to how you play

Oh, okay.