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The Iron Warriors have a special relationship with the Obliterators and field more of them than any other legion. (3rd ed codex) so there's no reason why Pertuabo wouldn't have used them. They differed from the other legions in that their 'possessed' were actually normal marines using daemon powered machinery and armour to fight. They would have no problem with possessed vehicles for the same reason, but they don't summon daemons.

Ok, but I thought a limit on them all would be better than just a unit or 2 that has no use anyway. If Crudcakes could change that in thwe OP, or if it isn't there yet, I'll change it before you add it.

I have already added it so I will change it.

Thanks.

Hey, I think we should put a limit on using these Primarchs for those who want to use them in Battle.

Obvioulsy DA, BA and SW can only use their particular Primarch, but I think Codex SM should only be using one at a time. Also, I think we need 2 Dorns. One for Vanilla, and give him Vanilla Rules, and one for BT with their rules.

An idea for Fulgrim's daemonic form.

Deadshot wrote:Thanks.

Hey, I think we should put a limit on using these Primarchs for those who want to use them in Battle.

Obvioulsy DA, BA and SW can only use their particular Primarch, but I think Codex SM should only be using one at a time. Also, I think we need 2 Dorns. One for Vanilla, and give him Vanilla Rules, and one for BT with their rules.

We don't need a Dorn specifically for BT, because I don't think they existed at his time, however, we should probably give him some BT rules, to show where they got it from. (?)

Deadshot wrote:Thanks.

Hey, I think we should put a limit on using these Primarchs for those who want to use them in Battle.

Obvioulsy DA, BA and SW can only use their particular Primarch, but I think Codex SM should only be using one at a time. Also, I think we need 2 Dorns. One for Vanilla, and give him Vanilla Rules, and one for BT with their rules.

Sounds good, what are your ideas on the chaos primarch's because since chaos is unordered I was thinking that take Angron for example he can only be taken in an army with at least 1 squad of khorne berserkers and undivided primarch's don't have any restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:An idea for Fulgrim's daemonic form.

Spoiler:

Daemon Primarch Fulgrim- 900pts
WS- 9/ BS- 6/ S- 6/ T- 6/ W- 5/ I- 10/ A- 4(7)/ Ld- 10/ Sv- 3++

Wargear: Daemon Blades, Wings.

- The Daemon Blades are four poisoned swords which Fulgrim now uses. He gains 3 extra attacks (to 7) for having three additional CCWs rather than one. His attacks ignore armour saves and poison on a 2+

Special Rules: Primarch, Fearless, EW, Monstrous Creature, Fleet.

Avatar of Slaanesh: Fulgrim's Initiative can never be reduced, and he always strikes first in CC. It also grants a 3++ save.

Fuelled by Pain: For every attack against Fulgrim (whether stopped by his Invulnerable Save or not) he gains an attack after all other attacks in the combat against the unit or character which attacked him.

Aura of Pleasure: Units that flee combat from Fulgrim are instantly destroyed as their fear is replaced by daemonic whispers and a blade to the gut.

Dark Prince: Fulgrim is a psyker with the powers Lash of Submission, Warptime and Wind of Chaos. He can use two powers per turn, but must target the same unit if he uses Lash and Wind. He doesn't need to pass a test to use these powers.

Daemon Primarch: Fulgrim is a daemon for the purposes of any unit with advantages against them.

Great rules for fulgrim but he might be too many points for what you've made him. give him some more rules.

Also I don't know if I want to start making daemon primarchs.

Well, I made a thread when I started herer on Dakka, with my custom rules for Primarchs, as if they were all reincarnated.

What I did was, that you must have no psykers and only Berserkers as troops to take Angron, only 1K sobns to take Magnus, only Plague Marines to take Mortarion, and only Noisers to take Fulgrim. For Lorgar he had the option of removing the 0-1 limit on either Summond lesser or Greater Daemons. so you could take 5 squads of Lessers, or 5 Greaters, or whatever, and gave them appropriat retinues.

Mortarion had the Death Wardens. Basically Manreaper armed Plaguemarines with +1 to everything and Termy armour.
Angron, I used the current, official ruleset, so he got Bloodthirsters, but they were compulsary.
Lorgar got the Gla Vorbak. I'll post them here now.

Good Idea.

Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv
Gal Vorbak 5 5 6 5 2 5 3 10 3+
Argel Tal 6 6 6 5 3 6 4 10 2+



Unit Type:Infantry
Unit Composition
4 Gal Vorbak
Argel Tal,The Crimson Lord
Special Rules
The Blessed Sons
Fearless
Feel No Pain
Daemons
The Gal Vorbek are Daemons and are treated as such. They have a 5++.

For all intents and purposes,the Gal Vorbak are treated as Possessed Chaos Space Marines.
The First Heretics
The Gal Vorbak may have two Possessed powers.If you get the same power,you may choose which one
The Crimson Lord(Argel Tal only)
Argel Tal may have 3 Possessed powers.These may be different to the others.Roll your three powers separately

Right so if you wanted to we could start making the special force selection rules for our primarchs and ill update them.

Also i wanted to have the freedom of having more than one or all the primarchs in a force so the selection restrictions are lifted in apoc.

for Magnus
You must have 1 1000 sons squad

For angron
You must have 1 khorne berserker squad and there may be no psykers in the army

and since horus is undivided he does not have any restrictions

They are lifted anyway in Apoc. Gk can ally with Daemons if you want. So you take Sanguinius with your BA force, the Leman Russ makes a one man SW army to ally, then The Lion joins in as a DA army.

Deathshrouds (Mortarion's Retinue) - 320

Infantry

Unit Composition: 2 Deathshrouds

Profile: See Chaos Lord (C:CSM)

Mark Of Nurgle (See C:CSM)

Manreaper: (See Typhus, C:CSM)

Artificer Armour



By the way guys, we need to give Mortarion's Manreaper Typhus's force weapon special rule in addition.

Jaghatai Khan


WS 8
BS6
Str 6
T 6(7)
W 4
Int 6
A 4
Ld 10
Sv 2+ 4++


Wargear

Moonfang
This is a power weapon that inflicts ID on a to wound roll of 6.
Moonfable
This bike gives Khan the ability to run in the shooting phase, as well as being fleet. Furthermore, he may always move 6" faster than normall when assaulting or moving.

Ie, he may move up to 18", but not turbo boosting. He may turbo boost up to 30", getting a 3++ cover. He may assault 12".

Artificer Armour
Iron Halo

Special rules
ATSKNF
Combat Tactics
Chapter Tactics( see Kor'sarro Khan)
Hit and Run
IC
EW
Acute Senses.

Lord of Hunters
The Great Khan is destined to be a hunter.

At the start iof the game, pick one Named Character. If your opponent does not have one, an IC will do, or a UC if you must.

Khan always hits and wounds this model on 2+.

Drive By slashing.

Unlike other units, Khan may move throuigh other units. if he moves through an enemy, he may make D3 CC attacks, and his squad, 1 each, though they hit on 6+, against them, although they may not strike back. if he turbo boosted, he may only hit on 6+, whiole his squad may not attack. If he does so, he may not run or shoot, but may assault that unit.

Awesome 1 more primarch to go and keep the body guard rules coming.

If I ever saw that Leman Russ on a field I'd set him and the person using him on fire.

So over powered, so much crazy add ons for him its unreal.

Well they are primarch's after all.

1 more primarch to go.

Wjhen I said that we need a BT Dorn, with their rules, it is because it isd unfair to say BT are not allowed to have him because they didn't exist back then.


Dorn 700pts

Ws 8
Bs 7
Str 7
T 7
W 5
IOnt 6
A 5
Ld 10
Sv 2+


Wargear

The Fist of Dorn
This is master crafted Thunderr Hamnmer that strikes at Str 10. It adds 1 to the damage chart.
Termanator Armour
Storm Shield
Iron Halo
Bolter
Special Ammo

Special Rules
ATSKNF
Combat Tactics
Chapter Tactics( see Pedro Kantor)
Bolster Defenses
Siege Master
Dorn, and his unit have the Tank Hunters USR. Any uniot in the army can roll an addittional D3 when penetrating armour, but not if they have Melta Weapons, Lance Weapons, Ordnance, or have rending qweapons that rend that turn.
"No remorse, No Pity, No Fear
Any Vanillla Marines gain the Counter Attack, Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy Special Rules, Black Templar gain up to 3 Extra vows. In addition, their faith in their liege is such that they may gain an additonal rules, rolled on a D6 below. Roll for each unit seperatelly. The effects last the battle.


1-Furious Charge
2-FNP
3-Relentless
4-Tank hunters
5-6++ save, or +1 to existing Invulnerable, after all other saves applied.
6-EW and roll again.


"Abhor the Witch, destroy the witch"
An army weith Dorn may not have any psykers, other than Grey Knight Space Marines. Inquisitors, Mystics, and other, non Grey knight psykers may not be included. If an allied army includes a psyker, it will be tolerated, but if they suffer a perils of the Warp, or target an Imperial Fist/Black Templar unit with a powerr, or even scazttering blast markers, then Dorn will charge the enemy. Dorn and his unit will i9mmediately try and shoot and assault them. If this happens, Dorn and his unit can and must run after shooting, and gain fleet.

Great all the primarchs are done so now any suggestions on how we could improve them would be useful.

We should also start making body guard options for all of them as well as force selection rules.

Don't think they all had bodyguards.

Which ones did'nt or at least not have the option to?

Since I was cordially invited to fanboy all over the topic for Corax, I will!


Corax, Primarch of the Raven Guard --- Pts 700?!?!? (recommend 550 or maybe even 500) By Deadshot/OmegaStriker

HQ - Jump Infantry - Independent Character

WS-8 / BS-5 / S-6(7) / T-5(6) / W-4 / I-8 / A-5(6) / Ld-10 / Sv- 2+/3++

Wargear:

The Raven's Talons- These are a pair of master crafted Lightning Claws with the Rending rule. They grant an additional 1 strength. Once per game, Corax may energize his claws, making them Str 9 AP 1 for a turn. Once per each player turn, one roll to hit and one roll to wound may be re-rolled.

Armor of Deliverance - This suit of artificer armor grants a 2+ armor save and a 3+ invulnerable save. Also, Corax's vital signs are controlled and Once per each player turn, one armor save and one invulnerable save may be re-rolled.

Wings of Deliverance - This areo-tech jump harness grants Corax the Lord of Deliverance special rule. If Corax is alone, he may move and assault 12 inches each. When deepstriking, alone or attached to a squad, ignore the scatter results and place the models as if an accurate result was rolled.


Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Hit and Run, Furious Charge, Primarch.

The Lord of Deliverance - All infantry gain the Fleet special rule. All Jump Infantry gain the Fleet special rule, and may roll +1d6 and add that to their fleet rolls, and move the extra distance.

Tactical Genius - Reserves are extremely precise under Corax's command. Instead of rolling for reserves, the player may choose what arrives on each turn, what method it arrives with, and where it arrives. In addition, roll all deep strike rolls twice and choose the result you desire.

Primarch - When Corax is on the field, all Raven Guard units capable of leadership rolls may use his leadership for any leadership tests. When Corax is slain, remove him from the table and place an objective marker where he was. This marker is worth 3 objective points to the enemy but 1 to the Raven Guard.

Furthermore, when alone or attached to a jump infantry squad, and conducting a Death or Glory, may choose to move out of the path of the Tank and re-postion themselves within 12 inches of their original position, using deep strike rules as per Wings of Deliverance.





Okay, so there is the modified ruleset that I took from page one of the thread and tossed in what I thought were decent changes. I made some small tweaks to the statline, as well as a few specific things that I tried to carry over from fluff. I got rid of some rules that don't apply or are replaced by other special rules. Then there were the following things I tried to incorporate:

Tactical Genius: Corax is one, and in the fluff they show him always able to put the troops where they are needed. I tried to implement this in the reserve phase by giving the player the choice to deliver all reserves where they are needed, but did not want deepstrike outside of Corax to be super accurate. Corax himself is spot on with regards to deepstrike, but everyone else just gets "twin-linked" deepstriking.

Wargear: Yeah, it's all Deliverance themed (that's the planet that Corax is from, and it has a small mechanicus forge, so the Raven Guard is exceptionally well equipped). The wargear I gave him reflects this, as well as the fact that guns are never mentioned in the fluff. The only weapons Corax has (IIRC) are his claws. Also, the claws are regular power weapons, but it's mentioned once that he can "turbo-charge" them and cuts through a big metal door (I must find the fluff reference) so I made him able to slice a tank for a turn. His armor is exceptional and so he has the artificer armor and a better than captain invulnerable save. Also, due to Corax's skill with these tools, I gave him a "twin-linked" once per turn for his to-hit, to-wound, armor save, and invulnerable save to represent this skill. I did not want to give him Girlyman's re-roll 24/7 rule, as that would have been too much with the statline Corax has.

Also, Corax is stupid mobile in the fluff, and I may have gone overboard in trying to represent the tabletop. He moves 24" +2d6 if he is alone and 18" +2d6 if he is in an assault squad. Is this too much mobility? Also, how would this impact the vanguard veterans in an army? The one part of this I think I over did it on was the movement.

So there is my proposed Corax, along with some commentary as to why I did things and moved stuff around and took some special rules out.

And about the points: remember, a 700 point Primarch should have the same impact as 700 points of scouts. That's 70 bodies, complete with all the wargear you need to toss some face. Corax as he is above does not do this. Outside of himself, he makes reserves reliable and makes infantry faster. That's it. He's a faster, meaner Vanguard vet, with some re-rolls and a nice jump pack. He certainly is not worth the same as two superheavy tanks, or 3 land raiders. I dropped his points to 550, mostly because of this. Your reserves are going to be much more effective, but you have 300 less points to do it with. Huge advantage = huge handicap.

What does everybody think? Comments and criticism please. This is much more specific and powerful than the current Primarchs you have, but similar changes need to be made to them, too.

Now, I'm done. Rant over. Although I admit to fanboyism, I think this is a very good model and it's nothing that can't be beaten by any army with the equivalent amount of points. Strategy, proper deployment, and protection from the enemy are still necessary to get him to be effective.

He has the exact same Claws as Shrike, yet do so much more?

I think its great i will put it on the first post and well see what the others think about it and remember a primarch is almost never overpowered. As for points i think 550 is fine.

OmegaStriker wrote:Since I was cordially invited to fanboy all over the topic for Corax, I will!


Corax, Primarch of the Raven Guard --- Pts 700?!?!? (recommend 550 or maybe even 500) By Deadshot/OmegaStriker

HQ - Jump Infantry - Independent Character

WS-8 / BS-5 / S-6(7) / T-5(6) / W-4 / I-8 / A-5(6) / Ld-10 / Sv- 2+/3++

Wargear:

The Raven's Talons- These are a pair of master crafted Lightning Claws with the Rending rule. They grant an additional 1 strength. Once per game, Corax may energize his claws, making them Str 9 AP 1 for a turn. Once per each player turn, one roll to hit and one roll to wound may be re-rolled.

Armor of Deliverance - This suit of artificer armor grants a 2+ armor save and a 3+ invulnerable save. Also, Corax's vital signs are controlled and Once per each player turn, one armor save and one invulnerable save may be re-rolled.

Wings of Deliverance - This areo-tech jump harness grants Corax the Lord of Deliverance special rule. If Corax is alone, he may move and assault 12 inches each. When deepstriking, alone or attached to a squad, ignore the scatter results and place the models as if an accurate result was rolled.


Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Hit and Run, Furious Charge, Primarch.

The Lord of Deliverance - All infantry gain the Fleet special rule. All Jump Infantry gain the Fleet special rule, and may roll +1d6 and add that to their fleet rolls, and move the extra distance.

Tactical Genius - Reserves are extremely precise under Corax's command. Instead of rolling for reserves, the player may choose what arrives on each turn, what method it arrives with, and where it arrives. In addition, roll all deep strike rolls twice and choose the result you desire.

Primarch - When Corax is on the field, all Raven Guard units capable of leadership rolls may use his leadership for any leadership tests. When Corax is slain, remove him from the table and place an objective marker where he was. This marker is worth 3 objective points to the enemy but 1 to the Raven Guard.

Furthermore, when alone or attached to a jump infantry squad, and conducting a Death or Glory, may choose to move out of the path of the Tank and re-postion themselves within 12 inches of their original position, using deep strike rules as per Wings of Deliverance.





Okay, so there is the modified ruleset that I took from page one of the thread and tossed in what I thought were decent changes. I made some small tweaks to the statline, as well as a few specific things that I tried to carry over from fluff. I got rid of some rules that don't apply or are replaced by other special rules. Then there were the following things I tried to incorporate:

Tactical Genius: Corax is one, and in the fluff they show him always able to put the troops where they are needed. I tried to implement this in the reserve phase by giving the player the choice to deliver all reserves where they are needed, but did not want deepstrike outside of Corax to be super accurate. Corax himself is spot on with regards to deepstrike, but everyone else just gets "twin-linked" deepstriking.

Wargear: Yeah, it's all Deliverance themed (that's the planet that Corax is from, and it has a small mechanicus forge, so the Raven Guard is exceptionally well equipped). The wargear I gave him reflects this, as well as the fact that guns are never mentioned in the fluff. The only weapons Corax has (IIRC) are his claws. Also, the claws are regular power weapons, but it's mentioned once that he can "turbo-charge" them and cuts through a big metal door (I must find the fluff reference) so I made him able to slice a tank for a turn. His armor is exceptional and so he has the artificer armor and a better than captain invulnerable save. Also, due to Corax's skill with these tools, I gave him a "twin-linked" once per turn for his to-hit, to-wound, armor save, and invulnerable save to represent this skill. I did not want to give him Girlyman's re-roll 24/7 rule, as that would have been too much with the statline Corax has.

Also, Corax is stupid mobile in the fluff, and I may have gone overboard in trying to represent the tabletop. He moves 24" +2d6 if he is alone and 18" +2d6 if he is in an assault squad. Is this too much mobility? Also, how would this impact the vanguard veterans in an army? The one part of this I think I over did it on was the movement.

So there is my proposed Corax, along with some commentary as to why I did things and moved stuff around and took some special rules out.

And about the points: remember, a 700 point Primarch should have the same impact as 700 points of scouts. That's 70 bodies, complete with all the wargear you need to toss some face. Corax as he is above does not do this. Outside of himself, he makes reserves reliable and makes infantry faster. That's it. He's a faster, meaner Vanguard vet, with some re-rolls and a nice jump pack. He certainly is not worth the same as two superheavy tanks, or 3 land raiders. I dropped his points to 550, mostly because of this. Your reserves are going to be much more effective, but you have 300 less points to do it with. Huge advantage = huge handicap.

What does everybody think? Comments and criticism please. This is much more specific and powerful than the current Primarchs you have, but similar changes need to be made to them, too.

Now, I'm done. Rant over. Although I admit to fanboyism, I think this is a very good model and it's nothing that can't be beaten by any army with the equivalent amount of points. Strategy, proper deployment, and protection from the enemy are still necessary to get him to be effective.

I would say 650 would be the MINIMUM points for this, for 2 reasons, 1, he makes you whole army fleet, and jump infantry SUPER fleet (Though I really like this rule, I think you should decrease it to d3, not d6, and his tactical genius rule. My Mortarion primarch is 500 points and is NOTHING compared to the Corax, I also think you should drop his initiative to 7, there is no way he is just below Lelith Hesperax, he is COMPLETELY unarmoured, and has trained basically her whole life in Arena combat, and is a space elf... I7 is as fast as possible as a power armoured person should be able to go.

While I see your point, bear in mind that these are Primarchs. Marines, exceptionally strong, struggled to hold Forgebreaker, yet Ferrur Manus and Fulgrim held it as if it was nothing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I see your point, bear in mind that these are Primarchs. Marines, exceptionally strong, struggled to hold Forgebreaker, yet Ferrur Manus and Fulgrim held it as if it was nothing

Ok ill raise the points to 650 then.

I think Sanguinius should have these rules

SANGUINIUS, PRIMARCH OF THE BLOOD ANGELS

500pts

WS BS S T W A I Ld Sv
8 7 6 5 5 5 5 10 2+

Wargear: Protector of Angels, Angelic Wings, Heaven's Fury, Blade of Wrath

Protector of Angels: A suit of artificer that grants an additional 3+ inv save
Angelic Wings: Sanguinius counts as jump infantry. Furthermore, he may rrroll failed dangerous terrain tests
Heaven's Fury: a Master Crafted Infernus Pistol
Blade of Wrath: A power weapon that reduces all characteristics of the enemy who is locked in combat with Sanguinius by 2, to a minimum of 1

Special Rules
Combat Tactics, Fearless

Tactical Precision Sanguinius and any unit with the DoA rule that he joins does not scatter when Deep striking.

Eternal Warrior, Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Acute Senses, Independent Character.

Inspiring Presence - All Blood Angels units that can draw line of sight to Sanguinius can reroll failed to hit rolls.

Foresight - Sanguius may reroll the dice for first turn or siezing the initiative, whichever you choose.

Pureblood: Any unit with the red thirst special rule has it removed. The A and WS characteristics will improve by 1 point.

Fixed the missing Characteristic, and the rules are being tweaked.

they are good rules but we will see if the people like them better.

So do we like these ones better?

Honestly, no.

For a start, BS 5 seems FAR too low for a Primarch, maybe other than Magnus with his 1 eye, but even then he could use forsight to make corrections.

Secondly, he either has Int 5 or 5 attacks, but he is missing a Characteristic.

Secondly, I think he should ignore Dangerous terrain altogether. His size, as well as his skill, would stop him getting a stubbed toe when flying off a building.