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Draigo wrote: The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups.
I assume you're referring to the Burning of Prospero.
You have to remember that the circumstances surrounding that conflict were extraordinary:
1) The SW had support from the Sisters of Silence (crucial against the psychic powers of the TS) and Constantin Valdor and his elite custodes
2) Magnus backstabbed his own legion, allowing the TS to be completely caught off guard
3) The SW had their primarch on the battlefield
4) The SW vastly outnumbered the TS BT (one of the largest chapters) vs. GK would be something like 3,000 vs. 1,000 (assuming the GK are limited to 1,000)
SW vs. TS was 100,000 (average HH legion) vs. 10,000 (one of the smallest, if not the smallest, HH legions). The SW might have had more than 100,000 as the legion was considered quite large before the invasion of Prospero
5) SW still took heavy casualties
My point is that the SW won against powerful psychic Astartes mainly becausethe odds were heavily stacked in the SW's favour.
In a hypothetical GK vs. SM conflict, I'm assuming that
1) SM won't have Sisters of Silence
2) the GK Grand Masters won't be purposefully trying to prevent the GK from fighting effectively
3) the greatest heroes of both sides will be present (unlike when Russ slaughtered TS left and right while Magnus sulked in his chamber)
4) the SM advantage in numbers is going to be at most 3:1
If you're referring to the Battle of the Fang, you have to remember that
1) the Fang was one of the most formidable, hardest to crack fortresses in the Imperium
2) most of the TS invasion force was composed of Rubric marines (vastly inferior to pre-Heresy TS and GK)
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Draigo wrote:
Greyish wrote:
Draigo wrote:
Greyish wrote:
Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".
As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.
You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.
Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.
Someone's forgetting that the Grey Knights have their own Martian Forgemoon, huh?
The parts I pick are the only statements I vehemently disagree with and know not to be true using the sources I have at hand. I have no problem with you or anyone else claiming that chapter “x” could beat the Grey Knights as an offhand opinion but it's hard to sit back when people start perpetuating false information about them as though they're pedalling facts.
Furthermore, neither of the sources I have used above have been 'retconned'. The Imperialis Armageddon is one of the most detailed pieces of work we have regarding the First War on Armageddon and is still hosted freely by the official GW website. The other is from the most recent version of the codex itself, specifically pages 11 and 13. The phrases I've used have always specified that they are talking about Grey Knight forces and not otherwise. Some people may not give them a lot of credit but GW writer's do tend to make it very obvious when they're talking about Inquisitors and/or Grey Knights. Please check them out before making such crass and incorrect accusations.
As for the rest, it's hard to reply to such an argument because it is so incoherent and it lacks any concrete source citing. You do nothing to directly confront the specific issues raised by using your own sources. Instead you sidestep the point to make an irrelevant accusation. For example, all I was trying to do with my previous comment about the Grey Knight fleet was demonstrate they have the weapons capability - opposed to what you had previously wrote about them lacking weapons. But instead of just acknowledging that information or countering it with a better source that says the GK ships don't have weapons, you make a leaping assumption that I'm trying to also say the GK fleet could defeat the UM fleet. It seems very nonsensical and even flippant. If you really believe you can contest my evidence directly then back it up with a source rather than sidestepping the issue. Otherwise it all just amounts to blowing hot air.
I mentioned mars are did you not read that? My statements were not incoherent or flippant. Nor did I side step I used the facts of ACTUAL warfare and what is needed to win. Without fluff armor and Inquisition gk cannot win. The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups. gk have no leg to stand on without the inquisition. As far counters to your pts I stated where there was information about that but apparently you didnt read that either. In a following post a person tried to use killing ground as a basisi of a gk vicotry but didnt take into account the gk's own omnibus where they lose to cultists and the like. In those novels it states the gk ships are not combat ships and needed 2 hereticus ships to fight the chaos ships. So no I think you need to read more carefully.
Sorry for quotepyramiding.
Your spelling makes it hard for me, and i apologise if i write something wrong now due to misunderstanding you. Anyway, instead of repeating your opinions, would you kindly answer to the (well put) points that greyish put? Such as they having their own forgemoon. (which you answer with silence) Read his posts, and answer carefully to each one. And try to spell correctly; if you are trying to make people think as you do, spelling correctly helps.
Well most grey knights while psykers do not have any offensive powers. Only the paladins and purifers do as per the new codex discluding speacial characters and librarians as per codex. If you include bl they also stated offensive powers were rare as only one guy in the omnimbus could use them so comparing them to ts isnt all that off.
Also to make it a fair comparison youd have to include resources leach army can use. Otherwise the gk would lose to just attrition. Hands down gk win in cc but thats not the only part of the war because in other phases the other chapters have the edge unless of course you add the inquisition in. Because UM vs GK/Inquisition. The GK will wreck face because theyre more rounded.
GK alone are smaller then the UM who can call on there secondary chapters so to make it fair you need to involved the Inquisition or you will have a Prospero all over. Thats what my stance was from the get go. GK alone do not have enough numbers and supplies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @brotherharaldus
Your using unofficial? Seriously? That does't help at all.
He said foregmoon of mars which when adressing another poster I stated everyone gets stuff from mars. It'd be very easy to surround that with a fleet and cut of the smaller grey knight forces.
Itd be like stating the navy seals can beat the entire US army. Seals are considered to have better gear and training but alone they do not have the resources to fight the entire army, They would have to resort to guerilla warfare.
Grey knights cannot fight larger forces like that alone. They're entire force is shock troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/13 20:36:29
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Except that the difference between Gk and standard SM is quite a bit larger than the one between Us army and seals.
GK specailises in striking quickly, they could use their vastly superior troops, training and wargear to quickly eliminate the enemy command structure and elite troops. Then, in the confusion, they could easily seize victory.
Your using unofficial? Seriously? That does't help at all.
So you are trying to say this guy made it purposefully different as to how GW would do it? Hardly.
Draigo wrote:I mentioned mars are did you not read that? My statements were not incoherent or flippant. Nor did I side step I used the facts of ACTUAL warfare and what is needed to win. Without fluff armor and Inquisition gk cannot win. The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups. gk have no leg to stand on without the inquisition. As far counters to your pts I stated where there was information about that but apparently you didnt read that either. In a following post a person tried to use killing ground as a basisi of a gk vicotry but didnt take into account the gk's own omnibus where they lose to cultists and the like. In those novels it states the gk ships are not combat ships and needed 2 hereticus ships to fight the chaos ships. So no I think you need to read more carefully.
Lol, right. Perhaps you are being serious. But coherent? Then how do lines along the sentiment of, “yes but the US lost to Vietnam. But the US is larger and stronger. so are the UMs so they won't lose” have anything to do with just 'acknowledging the existence of Grey Knight warships'. I didn't ask/say if the GKs could beat the SMs at all. It's like speaking to a bizarre spin-doctor - dodging the original point to such a degree that it's no longer relevant and rambling on about how great his party is while the rest of us have fallen asleep. Now after all that delaying you mention the GK omnibus and I could have finally given you kudos for mentioning Ben Counter's novels (still no quote or pg number though) but I wouldn't bother because I have a bigger issue with this being raised now. Normally I'm a fan of 40k as loose canon but remember your post “2012/02/12 20:37:30” with your “dex trumps books as far as cannon” remark? Oh dear. So in your own words, we can either assume that my statements that come from the codex trump your BL book source or would you prefer accusations of hypocrisy and double standards too? No? At the very least we can say that the conflict of info from those BL books has now been 'retconned'.
On to Mars and a quick simple one. Subtle difference here; Mars and Deimos aren't the same thing. While Deimos is a satellite of Martian origin and carries on with their Mechanicus traditions, it now orbits Titan/Saturn with the main aim of supplying the GKs. But let me guess, they don't get to count either because the Russians are still all commies at heart, or some twaddle.
What was next. Oh the cultists from the GK omnibus and the Killing Ground novel, etc. So we can safely assume that Cultist>GK>UM. Is that it? It's funny how you're willing to throw the whole fluff armour defence up at any GK victory but as soon as it's mentioned in a book that a sororitas or a cultist beat a GK it's a demonstration of how "really weak" the GKs are. Yet again, nice double standards there...
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/02/13 20:56:17
Actually I brought up the other books because I dont think bl is all that reliable. Though interesting how you pick and choose again from posts made to other posters. He wanted to use all bl without bringing up the omnibus. His arguement was just based on bl so I used solely black library.
I dont still have the book so how exactly can I use pg numbers? Buy the book just for this? Um no.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
Black Templars all the way. Ultramarines are very strict on the codex rules only ever 1000 strong, while Black templars are over 6000 strong!. If they are ever able to meet in 1 place they could wipe out some of the other races even start a new civil war. The Inq's knows about the black templars disregard for the rules, but cannot confirm their numbers nor have they made their move on them as they have been loyal servants to the emporer for 10.000 years without a hint of corruption.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh Black templars can allso count on aid from Imperial Fist, Grimson Fist and Hammer of Dorn chapters?????
And the lord high marshal Is a master at fleet battles. Armageddon anyone? biggest ork fleet ever recorded and they got beaten back.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/17 08:50:45
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Well I still can't believe that because if that were true then why did the ultramarines not have 600,000 marines defending ultramar against tyranids so... Can't believe it, so I still have to stay with my beloved Templars and say they are the strongest it even says in fluff they have the most marines, and that means largest fleet by FAR and therein lies the most assets as well so Templars are the most SINGLE strongest chapter.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Cain wrote:
Spoiler:
Brother Coa wrote:
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Well I still can't believe that because if that were true then why did the ultramarines not have 600,000 marines defending ultramar against tyranids so... Can't believe it, so I still have to stay with my beloved Templars and say they are the strongest it even says in fluff they have the most marines, and that means largest fleet by FAR and therein lies the most assets as well so Templars are the most SINGLE strongest chapter.
Because they did not have time to arrive? It takes a while to gather 600 000 marines. They might have been busy on their own fronts as well.
I maintain that GK would win; not only do they have armor that can withstand orbital bombardments (good luck piercing that with bolters); but sure, grimaldus is awesome, and he might have the combination of luck and stubbornness to survive a building collapsing while he is in it, but there is limits. You can survive if you are buried in rock (if you have power armour), but you can not survive having your head vaporised.
You can think what you want (at least some say so) but GK completely outclasses all other SM in every way.
Oh, and Draigo? In the GKWD the GK is described as having Strike cruisers (At least the strike force described had it, and I doubt the others lack it) and if the quality of those can match the rest of their equipment... you can figure the rest yourself.
Oh, and in the Killing Ground novel (the only novel I've read so far which describes GK) a Grey Knight named Leodogarius says during a test that no loyalist can kill a Grey Knight, only Chaos or those afflicted with it can. So, if you say BT can beat GK you say that BT is corrupted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/19 00:27:44
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Your spelling makes it hard for me, and i apologise if i write something wrong now due to misunderstanding you. Anyway, instead of repeating your opinions, would you kindly answer to the (well put) points that greyish put? Such as they having their own forgemoon. (which you answer with silence) Read his posts, and answer carefully to each one. And try to spell correctly; if you are trying to make people think as you do, spelling correctly helps.
Ha! Low blow, insulting his spelling THREE times in a small paragraph! I think we gathered he spelt something wrong, no need to say it repeatedly
- Da RobotLol
This is a signature. It contains words of an important or meaningful nature.
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Well I still can't believe that because if that were true then why did the ultramarines not have 600,000 marines defending ultramar against tyranids so... Can't believe it, so I still have to stay with my beloved Templars and say they are the strongest it even says in fluff they have the most marines, and that means largest fleet by FAR and therein lies the most assets as well so Templars are the most SINGLE strongest chapter.
Because they did not have time to arrive? It takes a while to gather 600 000 marines. They might have been busy on their own fronts as well.
I maintain that GK would win; not only do they have armor that can withstand orbital bombardments (good luck piercing that with bolters); but sure, grimaldus is awesome, and he might have the combination of luck and stubbornness to survive a building collapsing while he is in it, but there is limits. You can survive if you are buried in rock (if you have power armour), but you can not survive having your head vaporised.
You can think what you want (at least some say so) but GK completely outclasses all other SM in every way.
Oh, and Draigo? In the GKWD the GK is described as having Strike cruisers (At least the strike force described had it, and I doubt the others lack it) and if the quality of those can match the rest of their equipment... you can figure the rest yourself.
Oh, and in the Killing Ground novel (the only novel I've read so far which describes GK) a Grey Knight named Leodogarius says during a test that no loyalist can kill a Grey Knight, only Chaos or those afflicted with it can. So, if you say BT can beat GK you say that BT is corrupted.
Well pick your source and quit jumping between bl and codex. If you use bl then you can't use the codex since it retconned GK as the Malleus only chamber millitant. You keep bouncing around looking for that one pt to try to win. It looks more like desperate grabbing for straws. He said no loyalist can kill a gk? Then ask him why the hell is he fighting a loyalist? Last I checked he only fights corrupted so quit drinking the cool aide. As to the dumb statement they're armor survived orbit drop then ask alric why he was dropped by las pistols.
You seriously need to read more and quit posting one piece and then when it's defuncted run off to find another 1 point. 3 ben counter gk books trumps 1 smurf book. The gk got beat up by everyone in their own book. You know why? Cause they were outnumbered. Plus didnt help they had pretty inept fleet and got beat down by 1 black legion cruiser. Now onto the wd, it said they had a cruiser not an inquisition one? Did it say why they had a large ship?
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
They outclass them in every single way imaginable: equipment, training, plot-armour... But as the Germans found out during Operation Barborossa, they don't exactly help when your squad of 10 men come up against a squad of 50. The German tanks were better, their planes were better, their weapons were better (hell, only 1 in 3 Russian troops were ever given a rifle!)... But for every Panzer, there were 5 T-34s, for every ME109 there were 10 Yak-7b's, and for every Wermacht soldier, there were 20 Soviet conscripts (don't quote me on the figures.) In the words of Stalin: "Quantity has a quality of it's own."
A GK, despite all their gear, couldn't battle 3 SM at once. He can't be in 2 places at the same time... So as he stabs one SM and shoots another, the third is behind him and kills him. Chapter vs Chapter, the BT win due to sheer weight of numbers. If you include successors then it's the Smurfs. One on one it's the GK.
kestril wrote:The game is only as fun as the people I play it with.
"War is as natural to a man as maternity is to a woman."
SW where created to take out other chapters. That's why Magnus couldn't let them fix the Canis Helix or they would spread through space with their successors. To many predators, not enough prey.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/19 03:25:04
Technically if you count successors, and assets, IF would be a big one because then you have the Templar who have the largest fleet by far, and largest single chapter numbers. Then Crimson fists and all their combined successors and other IF successors plus the defence grid from terra BC the fists run terra so IF really got that ace up their sleve especially because the sons of dorn have the best brotherhood between chapters, and not like DA or Ultramarines where they command the respect of their successors.
This whole thread is just people ignoring anything they don't want to hear and plugging away with whatever points validate their own position... feels like Warseer in here.
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Lobukia wrote:This whole thread is just people ignoring anything they don't want to hear and plugging away with whatever points validate their own position... feels like Warseer in here.
LOL What an amazing revelation. The main issue is there were no actual boundries set for the discussion. So it's very easy to pick the one nugget of info you want to cling to. The fact that some of pulling from the unreliable bl, 2nd-5th ed codexes, and whatever silly fan fic they can find. lol
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
The case could be made that it is the Minotaurs chapter that is most powerful.
They are the hatchet men of the High Lords of Terra, they get all the latest stuff en mass ie tons of mark 8 armor and rare versions of vehicles, and have abnormally high recruitment assets so they replace losses in manpower very fast.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
>Raptors Lead the Way <
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/19 17:38:47
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hnads right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
I seriously don't think you read other peoples point at all. You are just covering your eyes and ears while yelling "nuh uh gk are the best!." lol The point of them being superior in a one on one fight was never disputed. Them fighting in a war which they seldom do and never have done alone is what has been dsiputed vs other chapters who out number and better at conducting open war. You keep wanting to ignore that factor.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
I will try to ignore your blatant insults. However, I would advise you to read my post before insulting me. First, i did not state that Gk are superior one-on-one. I stated that they are superior one-on-six. They are also fully capable of fighting a war, having tanks, dreadnoughts, strike cruisers (and thus logically battle barges) and so on.
I have not covered my ears and eyes, I have read every post and carefully weighed each one. But just because i do not think like you do not mean i am stupid.
I have never yelled "nuh uh gk are the best!."
I have made a number of serious points, backing each up with quotes and/or sources.
I do not ignore the factor that you see GK as incapable of fighting out a war.
Fight wars alone? Want examples? The Assault on Beroghast, the Cauldron of Biletide, the Bray-Nexus... (and yes, they are official, no "that does not help at all" please.)
Outnumbering does not mean they win. "Better at conducting open war?" Hardly. Want examples there too?
See new codex is better then killing ground hence also why I stated using it was better then using bl stuff back on page one. lol
Since they have dreadnaughts, strike cruisers they must have battle barges? Why? Because you want them to?
Your serious points were from one bl book till this last postwhere you actually used the codex like I said back on page 1.
So till you actually use current examples you did sound like just a fan boy spouting so if your insulted then step up examples like in your previous post.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Because battle barges are for battlefield purposes a larger version of strike cruisers, and other chapters have both, then surely Gk have has well, don't you think?
I do not see why BL is invalid; other than the fact that books might vary in opinion of course.
I never said it was better. I only used it in the hope that you would stop the insulting and actually read what i am trying to tell you.
I am not a fanboy. I play CSM. I only state facts.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Because battle barges are for battlefield purposes a larger version of strike cruisers, and other chapters have both, then surely Gk have has well, don't you think?
I do not see why BL is invalid; other than the fact that books might vary in opinion of course.
I never said it was better. I only used it in the hope that you would stop the insulting and actually read what i am trying to tell you.
I am not a fanboy. I play CSM. I only state facts.
Reason bl is a poor source is because in say killing ground one gk trounced 2 ultramarines and makes dumb bravo statement. In their own omnimbus justicars terminators etc are being beat up by guys on horseback and laspistols. lol Plus the part of psy powers varies greatly and with the new codex retcons who can use powers and what they have. Pallys purifiers etc are all new and didnt exist prior to the new book plus the powers were handled different. The new codex makes them more of a stand alone force where as prior they were just a small strike force.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
Black Templars Codex, page 8:
The Black Templars chose not to adhere to the Codex Astartes and, following the oath of Sigismund, the Chapter embarked upon its Crusade, eschewing the idea of a homeworld and living aboard their Crusade fleets, made up of dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other craft such as training vessles and gigantic forge ships.
Your individual superiority matters little to the fleets of the Black Templars.
Again, page 8:
Only the High Marshal of the Chapter has any idea how many Black Templars Space Marines there are, but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than most conventional Chapters, although dispersed over a much wider area. If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total, a force that would be all but unstoppable if ever gathered in a single place.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
Black Templars Codex, page 8:
The Black Templars chose not to adhere to the Codex Astartes and, following the oath of Sigismund, the Chapter embarked upon its Crusade, eschewing the idea of a homeworld and living aboard their Crusade fleets, made up of dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other craft such as training vessles and gigantic forge ships.
Your individual superiority matters little to the fleets of the Black Templars.
Again, page 8:
Only the High Marshal of the Chapter has any idea how many Black Templars Space Marines there are, but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than most conventional Chapters, although dispersed over a much wider area. If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total, a force that would be all but unstoppable if ever gathered in a single place.
^This. Going on Marine-vs-Marine basis, then sure, the GK are bosses (although, it is also worth noting that they are highly specialised for fighting the warp and its denizens, and as such having these strengths may come with a pay-off of limitations that other Chapters don't share). However, the topic is clearly about whole Chapters, and therefore they must be considered on Chapter-vs-Chapter basis. Again, on the other hand, this is still quite vague, and there are many factors and variables that play into it. For instance, there is little mention in the topic of the IF (compared to some other Chapters), yet, it may well be that they could take the title on the possibiliy that - in light of their particular forte and position in the galaxy - they may be able to simple weather any assault and win by being the last Marine standing, so to speak.
Another thing to consider is that, just as each player may be biased towards their favoured Chapter, so too will their respective dexes, as highlighted by the post above and the earlier GK one. Of course they will seek to big up and proclaim whichever Chapter it belongs to as uber-doober bad boys (even by SM standards). What better way to vindicate the person who has decided to play/collect them? I've not read them, but I'm sure there are similar quotes to be found about the GW, BA, DA, Ultras, etc . . .
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
NO PITY! 
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 
>Raptors Lead the Way < 
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)