Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes an opinion that has nothing to do with thet topic. I never said not on the forum just this topic. So no point is getting defensive.

People we're talking about it on the thread so I would say it was on topic. Just sayin'.

Gree wrote:
The problem is that the background for the Tyrannic War Veterans is a horrible piece of writing. The Codex is amended constantly, so incorporating anti-tyranid tactics in the daily training routine would have been perfectly fine. Where the Codex disagrees is in the specialization of units, or even entire companies, in fighting one particular enemy. That would make those units or companies worse at fighting all the other foes. A unit that specializes in fighting Tyranids specifically would not be as adapt at fighting Orks or Traitor Marines as regular units would be, as they would have focused their training.

Actually both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both refering to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.

Ah. It seems you may have misinterpreted my argument. I'm not promoting this "Tyrannic War Veterans" thing, where Ultras deviate from the codex in order to specialise, as the correct piece of Ultras fluff. I've not read it. All I'm basing my points on is what I do know about the Ultras and the nids: they, and their realm of Ultramar, is on the Eastern Fringe and was the focal point of the first Tyranic War, where the Ultras fought on their home planet against Hive Fleet Behemoth. Of course they weren't alone, but it was basically down to them and their efforts that Behemoth was stopped. Now, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the fluff that contradicts the Ultras primary association with the nids, both over other Chapters and over other foes. That's it. That's all I'm saying. Therefore, like I said, just because I'm saying they are the most experienced Chapter at fighting the nids, and are tangled up in fighting them more than other Chapters (again, down to basic geography), that doesn't mean I'm saying they are specialised or deviant from the codex. If I'm wrong on any of those points, for example if the Ultras are involved with other galactic-wide events and campaigns that outweigh the Tyranic Wars, or there are other Chapters with more experience against them, then please feel free to jump in.

Anfauglir wrote:How is me explaining that not covering your advancing troops with long range and/or heavy ordnance being a bad idea representative of "sorely lacking tactical analysis"

I didn't say you were completely wrong. I said that your analysis was "incomplete". You understand the basic concepts, just not the practical application of those ideas. I understand the principles behind how bridges are built. I wouldn't be able to actually build one.

Black Templars lack significant long ranged capability.

According to whom

I guess it would be the lack of Whirlwinds. Or the lack of dedicated man-portable heavy weapons teams. Again, it's not a lack of any heavy weapons. Just the lack of significant (it's getting kinda pathetic that I have to use so many italics just to ensure you guys actually read and think about what I post instead of skimming them, and then banging on your keyboards and hoping for the best) flexible options for them. I mean, there's a severe disconnect between the idea that squads of initiates could be doled out in small numbers to facilitate the deployment of heavy weapons, and the idea that they don't have Devastators because it would be dishonorable. Why would the Black Templars have these small teams if their sole purpose was dishonorable? They're conflicting ideas. In the end, the Battle Company has access to the same vehicles as the Black Templars Fighting Company What the Black Templars don't have is any kind of real organization, no small unit leaders (sergeants) have no dedicated squads to put down a base of fire or eliminate enemy vehicles aside from their own vehicles (which begs the question of how they handle this in situations where they are drop pod assaulting and come across vehicles they didn't just land right next to, no?). They simply have numbers and a complete lack of common sense (which might work to their advantage in some cases).

Thatguy91 wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.

Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?

Thats My point. You cant. There is no way you could compare the two as the only similarity between the two is organisation. There is a reason why there is no GW sanctioned "most powerful chapter", it would make the Fluff boring and everyone would play that chapter. Ultramarines might be the epitomy of a codex adhering chapter, following it to the letter in almost every way possible and upholding the beliefs of Girlyman fanatically. That has never made them a stronger chapter in battle, atleast not to My knowledge.

That is the point.

The good news is, it's okay that your knowledge of 40K fluff isn't very expansive. The Ultramarines have been called the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" for almost twenty years. I guess that doesn't specifically say that they're a stronger chapter in battle, but it would be pretty silly to suggest otherwise.

If your military experience being irrelevant to the discussion, that's fine. Not everyone in the military has training and experience in a combat, or even direct combat support role. I mean, guys in the Air Force or Navy (blah blah Navy SEALs) can claim to have been military. My experience as a Marine... A little more hands on. It doesn't make me better than anyone here. It just has offered me specialized insight for analysis when it comes to discussions like this. It's certainly not a scope of knowledge to be ashamed of. This forum should be so lucky as to have someone like me around, even if from time to time my patience with certain demographics is somewhat limited. The bitter reactions of other posters when they realize they've entered into a discussion they aren't qualified to participate in is not my concern. /shrug

I dont know everything but I know a fair bit. It suggests but it doesnt literally say ULTRAMAHREENZ R THE BEZTZZ! There are alot of suggestive pieces of fluff but it is not concrete. It doesnt matter if you have had combat experience or not, it is completely irrelevant in this discussion as none of us has any experience in the 40k universe. Thats what im trying to say. It doesnt matter if you are a marine, or some special ops dude or a french foreign legionnaire or a member of the spetsnaz. Your not an Imperial guardsman or a Space marine which makes all that useless, more or less.

I mean honestly, we dont even have all time info. If a proper analysis was to be made of the 40k space marines combat effectiveness we would need alot more information than what is given in books and game rules. If we had that additional information, then perhaps experience and knowledge from modern day soldiers could be useful to compare and evaluate. But we dont unfortunately. Atleast thats how I see it.

I never said it is anything to be ashamed of, I just said that in this particular discussion I think it is irrelevant.

The collected philosophies of Sun Tzu are hundreds of years old, written at a time when military technology was a faction of what it is today. And yet his teachings are still studied and adapted today.

War doesn't fundamentally change, son. The core concepts remain the same. What was true then is true now will be true 38000 years from now. Dismissing that is a callous, cowardly, and cheap way to escape an argument you can't win.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The collected philosophies of Sun Tzu are hundreds of years old, written at a time when military technology was a faction of what it is today. And yet his teachings are still studied and adapted today.

War doesn't fundamentally change, son. The core concepts remain the same. What was true then is true now will be true 38000 years from now. Dismissing that is a callous, cowardly, and cheap way to escape an argument you can't win.

War never changes.

That might be true in a normal setting but this is sci-fi. Its fictional. You cant apply reality to fiction and expect something that makes sense. Hell, I'm not even sure that sentence made sense!

War hasn't changed all that much because the environment hasn't changed all that much. Add space aliens, FTL travel, genetically modified bad asses, combat in zero gravity, fighting on other planets, daemons and undead machines from outer space and I think you will find that the way war is fought would change quite dramatically, son.

Further I wasnt trying to win or create an arguement, I was putting forward an opinion, and I stand by it. To think that you can compare modern warfare with that of the 40k universe is downright silly in my opinion.

War might never change, but the way it is fought changes dramatically.

You can discuss tactics by which they implement their weapons and resources. No one is discussing the physics of how a bolter works. But most of the weapons etc are based on a rl counterpart so yes we can discuss it since tactics and the psychology of how the IoM operates is NOT unique to fantasy. IG have many things in common with Russia during ww2 using inferior tech but having tons of bodies. Sayin its that abstract is ridiculous.

The fluff writers based things on real world to make it have a sense of realism. That's how a writer makes a good story of an established reality. We aren't discussing robots or space elves. We're discussing humans which we can relate to.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If your military experience being irrelevant to the discussion, that's fine. Not everyone in the military has training and experience in a combat, or even direct combat support role. I mean, guys in the Air Force or Navy (blah blah Navy SEALs) can claim to have been military. My experience as a Marine... A little more hands on. It doesn't make me better than anyone here. It just has offered me specialized insight for analysis when it comes to discussions like this. It's certainly not a scope of knowledge to be ashamed of. This forum should be so lucky as to have someone like me around, even if from time to time my patience with certain demographics is somewhat limited. The bitter reactions of other posters when they realize they've entered into a discussion they aren't qualified to participate in is not my concern. /shrug

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The collected philosophies of Sun Tzu are hundreds of years old, written at a time when military technology was a faction of what it is today. And yet his teachings are still studied and adapted today.

War doesn't fundamentally change, son. The core concepts remain the same. What was true then is true now will be true 38000 years from now. Dismissing that is a callous, cowardly, and cheap way to escape an argument you can't win.

Just wow...you are so right man, you are totally the only one who has seen war its not like there hasent been thousands of people who have seen war(oh wait I forgot you knew everyone who has seen battle and you know their online names my bad), you are totally right and we should all bow down before you because you are the elite of the elite, I am so sorry I ever said we shouldint talk about our military expirences just because thats the right thing to do, diddn't know we needed to toot our own hornes over a table top game. So LIKE I SAID BEFORE lets be Professionals because thats what your supposed to be did you join the service to boast about your deeds, wait you probally did do it for the recognition thats why you have to keep reitterating it. I am done hearing real life stuff we are talking about SPACE MARINES!!!!!!!

The future humans still have to fight with or against them. Which means they are part of the equation. We can start a new thread if you wanna discuss it? We are kinda heading off topic here..

Also, im kinda on Cains side here. Enough is enough.

As for saying the BT dont have adequate training befor ethey get their PA, they still have to go through the maturisation process just like any other marine. They still have to learn to do everything just like any other marine, they just put more focus in to CC b/c they prefer to follow the way of Sigisimund their founder and that was to close with the enemy and punish them face to face. And to say Ultra is best because they are the Poster Boys then wow... yea their great but a true comparison as to whoever is strongest will never be known, as i have said before they are all loyalist and thats not about to change so as you could say they are equal because they would fight side by side till the last marine died to defend the imperium. So on that note I am done arguing with people who think that(for some unknown reason) they know something the rest of the 40k community dosen't. And just for the sake of argument and because i can CRIMSON FISTS ARE STRONGEST WITH THEIR 300 OR SO MARINES!!!!

That the 4th ompany captain doesn't fully like the codex is one thing, the entire army the other.

Ultras have tons of experience against many foes. I do believe the Ultramarines series to be canon due to tons of references in the codex (in the timeline, chapter build-up, and so on)

Oh, and BT doesn't have only scouts you say. I see no devastators, land speeder storms, whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, librarians.....

the dark angels might actually be, they utilized a loop hole in the terms of the codex astartes and are still technically a legion with Azrael as the supreme grand master of all thier forces. lets also not forget they have a death star