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Anfauglir wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.

Once more, they are perfectly capable of providing heavy weapons and long range support. Any BT commander not covering his line of charging LRCs is not a very good tactician, seeing as their forte is in close combat.

This almost always sounds patronizing, but it's the truth. I can't impart to you my years of combat experience and knowledge on a forum. But safe to say, the way you imagine the battlefield to actually work is... incomplete.

That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.

Not really that unsupported though, is it. Their fluff states that the BTs have waged a Crusade against the enemies of the Emperor since the end of the HH when they were founded. They hold particular hatred for the heretic, the witch and the alien. Their fleets have splintered and dispersed across the galaxy, constantly driving forth seeking out such foes. The Ultras are more concerned with keeping their mini-Empire secure, localised on the Eastern Fringe. They are also known for being quite a Tyranid-focused Chapter because of their location (i.e. they're pretty fixed in their position and in their role). All this information is pretty common knowledge. Therefore to say that the BTs do more fighting and against a wider variety of foes is pretty substantiated.

No... it isn't. You're just making stuff up and twisting certain facts to support a biased and localized view of things. None of what you said after "seeking such foes" was true, it was just stuff that you invented or chose to interpret as part of an elaborate confirmation bias.

I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.

Sure, if by "facts" you mean unsupported declaratives and subjective conjecture.

While yes, everything I've said in a serious tone has been fact, your response does scream, at the top of its lungs, in a now-hoarse tone, something about calling a kettle black.

Their standard of training is actually much lower.

^ See. I'm gonna need a citation for this (still).

I clearly cited the missing areas of Black Templar training before. If they are clearly missing out on the broad spectrum training that a Codex Neophyte does, then the standard of training is lower. Your choice to ignore it is yours, but saying I didn't cite anything doesn't mean I didn't do it. And, to boot, I'm telling you, from an experienced standpoint (I was a weapons and tactics trainer in the Marine Corps), that the method of training which involved a high casualty, low margin of failure, methodology that isn't based primarily on skill or evaluation isn't going to produce the highest quality recruits. No professional army in the history of mankind has trained in that manner, and none ever will. The "Throw it at the wall, see what sticks" approach of the Black Templars is highly flawed, to put it in the nicest possible manner. However, it is in character with their fluff description, as unlikely as their fluff actually is when seriously considered. There's the understanding that 40K doesn't have to be governed by reason or realism all the time. But if we're going to make theoretical comparisons, then we have to create a constant for that to be based on. The constant, in this case, has to be an analysis of the effectiveness of a dedicated, broad spectrum training regimen based on real world application, evaluation and mentor demonstration versus one focused on basic core skills and the ability to mimic them under fire. You are allowed to believe that the latter process is just as effective as the former. That is your right.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style

Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.

But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes.

That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.

Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space.

I guess you haven't read anything that's been said about just how absurdly immense the fleet of the Ultramar Navy is. The Black Templars will have no such dominance and would be wholly unable to siege any of Ultramars planets. At least for very long.

Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines?

Given a 10-1 ratio, the Ultramarines need 50,000 PDF troopers to counter the Black Templars numerical advantage. Given the fact that the actual differential is probably more like 100-1 or more, yes, they match up, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.

I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.

Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)

So the Black Templars had the largest fleet present at Armageddon. Check.

Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do,

Unsupportable statement. Their standard of training is actually much lower. Merely surviving isn't the way to determine the quality of a recruit. Sure, the Marines who survive to become Initiates are probably Marines of a reasonable quality, but given that anybody can be killed by the "bullet with your name on it", a pool of recruits that suffers an extremely high casualty rate won't produce the best possible recruits, only the luckiest. Look at the incident that happend in the movie/book Black Hawk Down. The Delta Force operators present were amongst the best warrior on the planet, and yet five of them were killed by wacko militiamen high on khat, mostly shooting from the hip.

Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.

Now we're just getting silly. Sure, the Black Templars could "glass" Maccragge and ship truckoads of new Black Templars, but then they would have revealed their flagrant violation of Imperial Law and would be traitors, not unlike the Astral Claws. The only reason the Black Templars get away with their swollen ranks is that they are so widespread. Let's try and keep this discussion as theoretical. The second you try to start constructing combat models for it, we have to introduce a huge number of external variables.

The lack of Devastator squads doesn't indicate a complete absence of supporting fire. BT use large numbers of Land Raiders (which put down a tremendous amount of firepower) to attack weak points in the enemy line, or deploy drop pods full of hand-to-hand fighters directly into the fray. It's not like they just charge at them screaming, that would be suicidal, and no Astartes would be so foolish to waste themselves thus unless as a last resort. No BT would want to join a Devastator squad, as it would be a great dishonour to not follow the way of Sigismund and crack heads in close combat. Also, the statement that the BT would be more experienced at combat isn't really unsupported as you suggest, considering that they have been fighting pretty much non-stop for ten thousand years, only stopping so that they can journey along to find more enemies. In this way, don't you think that with all the enemies that they've fought, they'd have learnt much more through experience, from sword stances to fleet tactics. On the other hand, although the Ultra's reputation is certainly great (eg. their wars against the Tyranids and the Tau) they firstly are limited in their experience of fighting enemies (mainly Tyranids and Tau) and they also don't fight as much as the BT.

The BT naval force is one of the most formidable in the Imperium. The BT, being a wholly space-faring chapter, and on so large a scale that might support their larger numbers of warriors, has a large fleet (one could make the assumption that in total they have the naval power of 6 chapters or more). Also, this features the Eternal Crusader, which after the Phalanx and The Rock, is probably the most powerful vessel among space marines. Finally, this fleet has been tested on many occasions, and is commanded by a very skilled High Marshal Helbrecht, who, with his well planned and executed boarding actions (close quarters, where BT excel) broke the back of Ghazghull's massive fleet on Armageddon, which included space hulks. If you can bring any evidence of the size or nature of the Ultramar Navy, please post it, as it would provide a useful point of reference in the comparison of the BT and Ultramarine's naval power.

With regard to the Ultramar PDF, while they may be well trained, they've only really fought Tyranids, and so fighting Astartes of any kind would come as a lethal shock. For while they could function admirably holding the line against the Tyranids, their command structure would be ripped apart by the standard Drop pod insertion tactics, and then they'd be unable to mount a coherent defence against the oncoming wall of land raiders. Also, you're example of the Delta Force being killed by Somali Militia men isn't totally valid, considering they were outnumbered, running out of supplies (they'd planned on a rapid raid, not a protracted gun battle), and surrounded by militia. On top of this, they were only men, not 8ft tall super-humans in tank armour carrying automatic grenade launchers. A more apt comparison to be drawn from this example would be that between Stormtroopers and cultists, in which I wouldn't be surprised that a few Stormtroopers would die.

A final point. It has been argued that the BT zeal and preference for close combat makes them the less effective fighting force, and in some ways this is understandable. However, one could also argue that the rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes by the Ultra's could hinder them too, as it has in the past. The fact that they are a jack of all trades and so a master of none does mean, that against such a specialised force as BT, they may find a lot of their units harder to bring down as they don't have the optimum amount of firepower needed to take them down, only an average amount.

I'm going to start this by saying I do not care for the smurfs personally but I don't understand how people can constantly over look how effective they are because they're well rounded.

People keep overlooking the value of scouts, recon and any sort of guerilla warfare. BT people keep saying the bt don't need it. What? Are you kidding me? Snipers have ended conflicts with a single bullet.

Same goes for the gk supporters ignoring the fact that their entire force is shock troopers designed to fight daemons specifically where there is not a need for more subtle warfare.

In a world not protected by fluff armor you can't ignore snipers, scouting and other aspects of war.

Banzaimash wrote:A final point. It has been argued that the BT zeal and preference for close combat makes them the less effective fighting force, and in some ways this is understandable. However, one could also argue that the rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes by the Ultra's could hinder them too, as it has in the past. The fact that they are a jack of all trades and so a master of none does mean, that against such a specialised force as BT, they may find a lot of their units harder to bring down as they don't have the optimum amount of firepower needed to take them down, only an average amount.

Specifically addressing your delusions has lost its luster for for me, so I'll instead I'll focus on this new gem.

Aderence to the Codex doesn't mean what you think it does. A Codex adherent chapter merely follows the rough organizational and training guidelines as set down by Guilliman. The rest of the Codex is a giant strategic and tactical manual for addressing just about every possible thing that has ever been encountered on the battlefield, and a guideline for a commander to utilize when making his command level decisions using his own initiative and experience. A commander facing the Black Templars would know exactly what he was facing and would be able to equip his forces in an optimal manner for dealing with them. The Black Templars commander, on the other hand, doesn't have that same option; he only has the limited assets the Black Templars bring to bear. Remember, the Codex chapter has everything the Black Templars do. Drop Pods, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. The Black Templars commander has no heavy weapons teams, no surface to surface artillery (Whirlwinds), no organic, ground based reconnaissance teams to act directly or serve as forward observers. Everything you say the Black Templars can do, the Ultramarines can do back to them.

Sadly, because of Graham McNeill's poorly researched, poorly thought out, and all around terrible exmaples of how not to write military fiction that The Black Library calls the Ultramarines series, I can see how people have the wrong idea here. McNeill is the C.S. Goto of the Ultramarines.

It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This almost always sounds patronizing, but it's the truth. I can't impart to you my years of combat experience and knowledge on a forum. But safe to say, the way you imagine the battlefield to actually work is... incomplete.

I don't know what point you're making here. But what I do know is that the 40K universe resembles little the way an actual battlefield would work. All I was saying is that you are wrong when you say BTs lack training in heavy weapons and/or long range ordnance. Nothing stops any BT army list from including anything a Codex Chapter uses. Meaning? BTs are trained to use any and everything the Ultras are. Simple as that. No amount of real life combat experience or knowledge has any impact on that fact (or much relevance).

No... it isn't. You're just making stuff up and twisting certain facts to support a biased and localized view of things. None of what you said after "seeking such foes" was true, it was just stuff that you invented or chose to interpret as part of an elaborate confirmation bias.

How am I making stuff up? Are you trying to argue that the Ultras aren't concerned with maintaining their realm? Or that they aren't localised out on the Eastern Fringe, where their operations are naturally going to be more focused on that area of the galaxy? Or that they're not known for their role in the fluff as Tyranid specific enemies (so much so that they have unique "Tyranid veteran" themed fluff and minis)? I'm sorry, but if that's the case than you're simply incorrect, and I wish you luck in your doomed endevour.

I clearly cited the missing areas of Black Templar training before. If they are clearly missing out on the broad spectrum training that a Codex Neophyte does, then the standard of training is lower.

So clear as to be completely invisible, perhaps? You simply stating an (incorrect) declarative does not equate a citation. A citation links to a source which provides supportive and/or elaborative information which you are basing your viewpoint around. You going "er, I did cite it before when I said the things that agree with what I said" doesn't count, sorry. Please provide a link to an official source that states; "BT marines lack training that makes them inferior soldiers to other Codex Marines". Until you do this, your statements are just that: statements.

Your choice to ignore it is yours, but saying I didn't cite anything doesn't mean I didn't do it.

Correct. The fact that you didn't source your words means you didn't do it. I simply picked up on that and stated it as an observation.

There's the understanding that 40K doesn't have to be governed by reason or realism all the time. But if we're going to make theoretical comparisons, then we have to create a constant for that to be based on. The constant, in this case, has to be an analysis of the effectiveness of a dedicated, broad spectrum training regimen based on real world application, evaluation and mentor demonstration versus one focused on basic core skills and the ability to mimic them under fire.

Except that it isn't the constant put forth by the TC or most of the other posters. It's one you're now trying to force onto the situation. You're completely correct with the first sentence in the above quote, yet you seem to have lost sight of that understanding, and are now verring considerably off course. The BTs, both in the fluff and on the tabletop are not portrayed as an inferior Space Marine force. It's as simple as that. I don't know how many times or in how many different ways I can tell you this simple truth.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:A final point. It has been argued that the BT zeal and preference for close combat makes them the less effective fighting force, and in some ways this is understandable. However, one could also argue that the rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes by the Ultra's could hinder them too, as it has in the past. The fact that they are a jack of all trades and so a master of none does mean, that against such a specialised force as BT, they may find a lot of their units harder to bring down as they don't have the optimum amount of firepower needed to take them down, only an average amount.

Specifically addressing your delusions has lost its luster for for me, so I'll instead I'll focus on this new gem.

Aderence to the Codex doesn't mean what you think it does. A Codex adherent chapter merely follows the rough organizational and training guidelines as set down by Guilliman. The rest of the Codex is a giant strategic and tactical manual for addressing just about every possible thing that has ever been encountered on the battlefield, and a guideline for a commander to utilize when making his command level decisions using his own initiative and experience. A commander facing the Black Templars would know exactly what he was facing and would be able to equip his forces in an optimal manner for dealing with them. The Black Templars commander, on the other hand, doesn't have that same option; he only has the limited assets the Black Templars bring to bear. Remember, the Codex chapter has everything the Black Templars do. Drop Pods, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. The Black Templars commander has no heavy weapons teams, no surface to surface artillery (Whirlwinds), no organic, ground based reconnaissance teams to act directly or serve as forward observers. Everything you say the Black Templars can do, the Ultramarines can do back to them.

Sadly, because of Graham McNeill's poorly researched, poorly thought out, and all around terrible exmaples of how not to write military fiction that The Black Library calls the Ultramarines series, I can see how people have the wrong idea here. McNeill is the C.S. Goto of the Ultramarines.

There's no need to call people delusional. What you may believe is humourous can be perceived as being insulting, and you don't need that to prove your points, considering that you seem to be perfectly capable of putting forward good arguments without it, such as your above point. The BT aren't so much lacking in equipment as you have said, in fact they are able to equip with either weapons suited to the oddly frequent hand to hand engagements of the 41st Millenium or with the standard weaponry of tactical squad, something that Ultras may be unable to do. With Ultras, they may be able to alter their troops for maximum effect, but how much is maximum? Considering that in order to be the ultimate tactically flexible force as designed in the Codex they neither specialise in ranged nor hand-to hand fighting,but can perform both roles reasonably well. Not everyone in their army can take powerful ranged weapons, or jump packs .etc. as they don't specialise in these tenets (a comparison can be made to BA, who, in giving most of their force jump packs, has limited bike units, although the actual practicality of bikes in warfare such as that found in the 41st millenium is questionable) they merely can perform them. So while an Ultra commander may be able to maximise his force efficiency through using as many of the required troop as possible, the actual availability of these units will be limited.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A commander facing the Black Templars would know exactly what he was facing and would be able to equip his forces in an optimal manner for dealing with them. The Black Templars commander, on the other hand, doesn't have that same option; he only has the limited assets the Black Templars bring to bear. Remember, the Codex chapter has everything the Black Templars do. Drop Pods, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. The Black Templars commander has no heavy weapons teams, no surface to surface artillery (Whirlwinds), no organic, ground based reconnaissance teams to act directly or serve as forward observers. Everything you say the Black Templars can do, the Ultramarines can do back to them.

This is where you're mostly going wrong. BTs have access to everything from the Codex, except for scouts. The Ultras having scouts is not a game-changer.

EDIT: oh and Librarians.

Anfauglir wrote:
How am I making stuff up? Are you trying to argue that the Ultras aren't concerned with maintaining their realm? Or that they aren't localised out on the Eastern Fringe, where their operations are naturally going to be more focused on that area of the galaxy?

I find the idea that Templars do more fighting than Ultramarines to be rather false really

Black Templar cursade --> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to one of their recruitment worlds to get new Neophytes.

Ultramarines--> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to their home world to get new Aspirants.

There is not really much difference between the number of engagements a Chapter and the Black Templars will have. Virtually every engagement of a Codex Chapter will also involve them arriving there with their ships. Codex Chapters are not really expected to fight on their home worlds alot, you know? That is rather the exception. Every time a Codex Chapter fights somewhere, they will go there with their ships. Just like the Black Templars do. The difference is that Codex Companies return to their home world for resupplies, while the Black Templars approach one of their recruitment worlds.

Anfauglir wrote:
Or that they're not known for their role in the fluff as Tyranid specific enemies (so much so that they have unique "Tyranid veteran" themed fluff and minis)? I'm sorry, but if that's the case than you're simply incorrect, and I wish you luck in your doomed endevour.

That’s a rather lamentable piece of fluff written by Graham McNeill that makes little sense, considering that last Tyranid excursion after Behemoth in that general area was 250 years later with Hive Fleet Kraken. Thankfully the Tyranid War Hunters seem to be slowly being retconned out of the fluff of the FFG sourcebooks are any indication.

Banzaimash wrote:It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).

If a lasgun can pierce their armor a sniper rifle can. Eye sensors don't mean much when I can hit you from a mile away. Armor again doesn't mean didly compared to even the rifles and ammo we use now. If I can shoot a man in an abram I bet I can pierce power armor. Your fluff armor wont save you from a bullet to the bridge of your nose or base of your skull. Superior training and all the bells and whistles don't make you bullet proof. You can run all you want you'll just die tired.

Imperial Fists of course.

Gree wrote:
I find the idea that Templars do more fighting than Ultramarines to be rather false really

Black Templar cursade --> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to one of their recruitment worlds to get new Neophytes.

Ultramarines--> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to their home world to get new Aspirants.

There is not really much difference between the number of engagements a Chapter and the Black Templars will have. Virtually every engagement of a Codex Chapter will also involve them arriving there with their ships. Codex Chapters are not really expected to fight on their home worlds alot, you know? That is rather the exception. Every time a Codex Chapter fights somewhere, they will go there with their ships. Just like the Black Templars do. The difference is that Codex Companies return to their home world for resupplies, while the Black Templars approach one of their recruitment worlds.

Well, in truth I wasn't stating that the BTs fight more often than the Ultras is an irrefutable fact, just that the perception isn't as unsupported as VS was claiming. However slight, there is a difference as to how they operate compared to other Chapters;

Lexicanum wrote:Unlike most other chapters, the Black Templars don't have a homeworld. Eschewing the idea of one they opted to live aboard their crusade fleets.

These vary in size and are made up of dozens of Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers and other craft such as training vessels and huge forge ships. Given this fleet based nature, the Black Templars are rarely assembled as a Chapter, but are instead divided into many Crusades. Every Crusade being responsible for its own recruiting as well as training of new Neophytes.

The High Marshal himself has his own personal Battle Barge, the Eternal Crusader, a huge vessel that is the spiritual home of the entire Chapter and contains its most sacred relics, chapels, and reliquaries. It has been expanded and refitted many times and can currently hold twice as many Space Marines as a normal battle barge.

This flexible, mobile nature, allows the Templars to continue the first mission of the Black Templars: to actively seek out the enemies of the Emperor and destroy them before moving onwards to find the next foe.

So, as you rightly point out, their actual battlefield deployment isn't going to differ much from a Codex one, it's more the overall attitude and mindset that they practice I was getting at. For them, it's one, long, ongoing battle to claim the galaxy in the name of the Emperor. The Ultras, by comparison, are likely much more grounded in the "here and now" of the goings on in and around Ultramar.

That’s a rather lamentable piece of fluff written by Graham McNeill that makes little sense, considering that last Tyranid excursion after Behemoth in that general area was 250 years later with Hive Fleet Kraken. Thankfully the Tyranid War Hunters seem to be slowly being retconned out of the fluff of the FFG sourcebooks are any indication.

Lamentable or not, it's still there and it's still fairly common knowledge. Ergo, I'm not making things up or twisting things.

Anfauglir wrote:Lamentable or not, it's still there and it's still fairly common knowledge. Ergo, I'm not making things up or twisting things.

It’s a walking contradiction. The Ultramarines are stated to be the exemplars of the Codex Astartes and yet they specialize against a certain opponent. It would be like the Black Templars forming a special squad of Black Templar Librarians while maintaining they hate the witch.

But as I said before FFG has started to retcon it.

Draigo wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).

If a lasgun can pierce their armor a sniper rifle can. Eye sensors don't mean much when I can hit you from a mile away. Armor again doesn't mean didly compared to even the rifles and ammo we use now. If I can shoot a man in an abram I bet I can pierce power armor. Your fluff armor wont save you from a bullet to the bridge of your nose or base of your skull. Superior training and all the bells and whistles don't make you bullet proof. You can run all you want you'll just die tired.

Lasguns can't pierce their armour (hence their AP-). Also, who will you be hitting from a mile away, when there's nothing but a wall of the most heavily armoured fighting vehicles rolling toward you ? Also, marines have actual PA as well as fluff armour protecting them, armour that needs balls of fiery plasma or an Earthshaker shell to penetrate. Sniper bullets/ darts won't make the grade I think. The likelyhood of shots like those you mentioned are represented by the snipers in game being rending, but just from that you can see that it's already unlikely. Add to this the fact that moving targets are pretty hard to hit .etc. it's already clear that snipers will have little effect. Besides, snipers won't be able to be fielded in force, considering that they are only able to be accessed by scout companies. And if a BT commander were to be killed, he'd swiftly be replaced by the next best Sword Brother. Helbrecht, who is the main BT strategist, would be sitting comfy (or not so comfy, depending on how good the enemy fleet is) in space, far from the reach of any sniper.

Banzaimash wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).

If a lasgun can pierce their armor a sniper rifle can. Eye sensors don't mean much when I can hit you from a mile away. Armor again doesn't mean didly compared to even the rifles and ammo we use now. If I can shoot a man in an abram I bet I can pierce power armor. Your fluff armor wont save you from a bullet to the bridge of your nose or base of your skull. Superior training and all the bells and whistles don't make you bullet proof. You can run all you want you'll just die tired.

Lasguns can't pierce their armour (hence their AP-). Also, who will you be hitting from a mile away, when there's nothing but a wall of the most heavily armoured fighting vehicles rolling toward you ? Also, marines have actual PA as well as fluff armour protecting them, armour that needs balls of fiery plasma or an Earthshaker shell to penetrate. Sniper bullets/ darts won't make the grade I think. The likelyhood of shots like those you mentioned are represented by the snipers in game being rending, but just from that you can see that it's already unlikely. Add to this the fact that moving targets are pretty hard to hit .etc. it's already clear that snipers will have little effect. Besides, snipers won't be able to be fielded in force, considering that they are only able to be accessed by scout companies. And if a BT commander were to be killed, he'd swiftly be replaced by the next best Sword Brother. Helbrecht, who is the main BT strategist, would be sitting comfy (or not so comfy, depending on how good the enemy fleet is) in space, far from the reach of any sniper.

So youre using game rules for guns but book fluff for others? That a weak arguement. In the fluff lasguns can and have pierced pa. You are picking and choosing which you best think illustrates your point not a coherent stance. Moving targets are not hard to hit been there done that myself so Im sure sm scouts can as well if a lowly man can. The snipers affect is psycological and I can see you have no actual exp and just drink the cool aide. Big armored vehicles? You act lie itd be the sniper vs the entire bt army. You forget the REST of the army?

I understand the psychological effects of sniper fire, but it would do little against SM, except make them more angry. My main point is quite simply that when there are so many other easier ways of destroying a marine, sniper fire is hardly having the most impact next to artillery, plasma weaponry or even just bolters. As for my use of game rules as support for my argument, it is only because I've never read any BL books about guard fighting SM so the rules were the next best thing. It doesn't really weaken my argument, considering that the rules to a greater extent are representative of the fluff. With any argument you will use evidence that best supports your point (it would be trying to argue that lasguns can't penetrate PA, and then quoting a part in some BL book where an SM takes a las-shot to the chest and dies). Sure, I've not had experience shooting a sniper rifle at a moving target because funnily enough it's difficult to get hold of a sniper rifle and find a moving target that won't put you in jail if you hit it . As for when you were shooting a moving target, I presume it wasn't one of many angry marines with chainswords wearing power armour and fighting marines on your side?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style

Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.

But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes.

That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.

Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space.

I guess you haven't read anything that's been said about just how absurdly immense the fleet of the Ultramar Navy is. The Black Templars will have no such dominance and would be wholly unable to siege any of Ultramars planets. At least for very long.

Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines?

Given a 10-1 ratio, the Ultramarines need 50,000 PDF troopers to counter the Black Templars numerical advantage. Given the fact that the actual differential is probably more like 100-1 or more, yes, they match up, lol.


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Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.

I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.

Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)

So the Black Templars had the largest fleet present at Armageddon. Check.

Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do,

Unsupportable statement. Their standard of training is actually much lower. Merely surviving isn't the way to determine the quality of a recruit. Sure, the Marines who survive to become Initiates are probably Marines of a reasonable quality, but given that anybody can be killed by the "bullet with your name on it", a pool of recruits that suffers an extremely high casualty rate won't produce the best possible recruits, only the luckiest. Look at the incident that happend in the movie/book Black Hawk Down. The Delta Force operators present were amongst the best warrior on the planet, and yet five of them were killed by wacko militiamen high on khat, mostly shooting from the hip.

Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.

Now we're just getting silly. Sure, the Black Templars could "glass" Maccragge and ship truckoads of new Black Templars, but then they would have revealed their flagrant violation of Imperial Law and would be traitors, not unlike the Astral Claws. The only reason the Black Templars get away with their swollen ranks is that they are so widespread. Let's try and keep this discussion as theoretical. The second you try to start constructing combat models for it, we have to introduce a huge number of external variables.

Well i wasint stating that i was offended, i also agree with the all to serious about toy soldiers, and i disagree with that your not personally invested stating real life expirence with military, guess what man anyone can say that(i am not saying you dont) just that people always talk big behind a keyboard so lets just put it here and now brothers close the lips and be silent professionals, leave what you have done between you and your brothers.

I am not just saying they had the Largest fleet but the best commander thats why even Dante said he should be in charge of space at Armagedon, all Chapter Masters respect Helbrect for his ability to command a fleet.

Once again leave RL out of this conversation, relating BHD really??? Pretty sure that was a whole different scenario, and you even said wer'e playing toy soldiers, so you have to realize its a toy universe, which therefore makes any relation to try and make it seem like you could compare war now to a fake galaxy at war irrelevent.

I so love how you left out my fifth paragraph when quoting me makes me think you work for a news company leaving out details of what i said. I stated that OBVIOUSLY who ever attacked first would be labled a traitor and waxed by the rest of the Imperium. Also i clearly stated that i am not Biased to the BT i have a fond look for the Ultra actually, i am just stating that to kill all the templar would be alot harder as that you would have to search near almost every system in the galaxy for their keeps. I also clearly stated that the srtongest would most likley be the Imperial fists seeing as how they have Terra.


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Also to say BT don't have ranged capability bellow they have vindicators that can move all out and shoot, terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 men, and troop squads of five with heavy weapons, which means if you fully kitted the Templars which they do have the equipment to do then they would have more heavy weapons then an opponent of equal size, so just imagine having 6x more units as well as more firepower. YeS I understand they don't have snipers but, in the BT codex it even states the BT have 2 methods of attack DP and Armored column pretty sure sniping dosent matter when in a tank or when all the sudden dropping out of the sky in the thick of it.

Gree wrote:
It’s a walking contradiction. The Ultramarines are stated to be the exemplars of the Codex Astartes and yet they specialize against a certain opponent.

And? It's still there. They can still be exemplars of the Codex doctrine, and still be adapted and most experienced Chapter against a certain opponent. They're the most experienced fighting Tyranids because of geography, but that doesn't mean they're now "less" adapted in other areas. I'm not responsible for GW's notoriously contradictorary fluff entries, and I certainly won't be called a liar on their account.

EDIT: geography, not geology.

Anfauglir wrote:
And? It's still there..

And still contradicted by the main fluff we have.

Anfauglir wrote:
They can still be exemplars of the Codex doctrine, and still be adapted and most experienced Chapter against a certain opponent. They're the most experienced fighting Tyranids because of geology, but that doesn't mean they're now "less" adapted in other areas..

The moment you begin to specialize and devote more training and time to defeating one enemy you must logically devote less time to other enemies and becoming less on an all-rounder. Specializing against a certain enemy is the exact opposite of the Codex.

Anfauglir wrote:
I'm not responsible for GW's notoriously contradictorary fluff entries, and I certainly won't be called a liar on their account.

When did I call you a liar?

Banzaimash wrote:I understand the psychological effects of sniper fire, but it would do little against SM, except make them more angry. My main point is quite simply that when there are so many other easier ways of destroying a marine, sniper fire is hardly having the most impact next to artillery, plasma weaponry or even just bolters. As for my use of game rules as support for my argument, it is only because I've never read any BL books about guard fighting SM so the rules were the next best thing. It doesn't really weaken my argument, considering that the rules to a greater extent are representative of the fluff. With any argument you will use evidence that best supports your point (it would be trying to argue that lasguns can't penetrate PA, and then quoting a part in some BL book where an SM takes a las-shot to the chest and dies). Sure, I've not had experience shooting a sniper rifle at a moving target because funnily enough it's difficult to get hold of a sniper rifle and find a moving target that won't put you in jail if you hit it . As for when you were shooting a moving target, I presume it wasn't one of many angry marines with chainswords wearing power armour and fighting marines on your side?

Rules are not the same as the books or the fluff. lol Otherwise daemons, nids, csm and such would be a lot better.

So watching your friends head explode and not lmow where it came from isn't as imposing as a loud machine gun where you see nozzle flash? Hhhmm yea ok..

You are right it wasnt a sm, it was something considerably smaller. So I'd say it'd be easier to hit a pa marine. I don't see how angry marine matters since the person shooting him is also a sm.

Huh, probably going with the black templars here. They're swollen beyond most other chapters, plus, land raiders and junk.

Blood Angels are pretty powerful, what with their vroom vroom tanks and such, but the blood rage kind of equals them out. Plus, it seems like other chapters aren't too keen on them, or at least are wary.

Cain wrote:Well i wasint stating that i was offended, i also agree with the all to serious about toy soldiers, and i disagree with that your not personally invested stating real life expirence with military, guess what man anyone can say that(i am not saying you dont) just that people always talk big behind a keyboard so lets just put it here and now brothers close the lips and be silent professionals, leave what you have done between you and your brothers.

Thanks for your input. Got any helpful movie quotes too? Maybe explain to me how your trigger finger is your safety.

Regardless of your less than useful life advice, I fail to see how my explaining that somebody's tactical analysis is sorely lacking represents any kind of emotional investment.

Once again leave RL out of this conversation, relating BHD really??? Pretty sure that was a whole different scenario, and you even said wer'e playing toy soldiers, so you have to realize its a toy universe, which therefore makes any relation to try and make it seem like you could compare war now to a fake galaxy at war irrelevent.

So, what you're saying is leave out anything that doesn't support your argument. Fair enough. BHD was simply presenting a simple comparative analogy as an example of the concept of "a bullet with your name on it". Not trying to draw a direct parallel. It's having to break stuff like this down Teletubbie style like this that should give you less cause to wonder why I quickly tire of these arguments.

I so love how you left out my fifth paragraph when quoting me makes me think you work for a news company leaving out details of what i said.

Your fifth paragraph wasn't relevant to anything that I was discussing, just your random musings about other topics. There was no need to quote useless material and waste more page space than it already took up the first time.

Also to say BT don't have ranged capability bellow they have vindicators that can move all out and shoot, terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 men, and troop squads of five with heavy weapons, which means if you fully kitted the Templars which they do have the equipment to do then they would have more heavy weapons then an opponent of equal size, so just imagine having 6x more units as well as more firepower. YeS I understand they don't have snipers but, in the BT codex it even states the BT have 2 methods of attack DP and Armored column pretty sure sniping dosent matter when in a tank or when all the sudden dropping out of the sky in the thick of it.

Black Templars lack significant long ranged capability. Vindis are short range. Metagame rules exploitations are as silly and pointless as combat models, so let's leave them out. In that case, Codex Space Marines can have four heavy weapons per five man Devastator squad, leading to 24 heavy weapons per FOC as opposed to 18 for the Black Templars.

Really, in the end, admitting that the Black Templars only have two viable methods of attack, Drop Pos and Armored Column is to essentially admit their severe strategic and tactical shortcomings. Not every battlefield scenario is going to make those options viable. What do the Black Templars do when they can't use them? Surely their Crusades are going to bring them across targets that are protected (naturally or artificially) against those forms of assault. Then what do they do? Fire up the drives and move on to the next system?

In the end, I have a more serious question: If you don't think the Black Templars are more powerful than the Ultramarines, then why are you perpetuating this argument? Nobody suggested the Black Templars were weak or worthless. Only that their strengths were overstated compared to those of the Ultramarines. There's a reason that the boys in blue been called "The Greatest of the Space Marine Chapters" since 1995. The quicker the Black Templar supporters in this thread divorce themselves from investment in the conversation, the quicker the core arguments will become clear.

Gree wrote:
And still contradicted by the main fluff we have.

Being a contradiction doesn't remove it. I'm not even sure how much of a contradiction it really is. Point remains: Ultras fluff focuses more on nids than any other enemy type (as far as I'm aware, anyone better read on Ultras feel free to jump in here), whereas BT fluff states how their hatred of all three of the Imperiums enemies drives them to seek out and destroy them all. Thus, the point around which my comment was based (the context of which has now become rather lost on this roundabout), is a perfectly valid one. The notion that the BTs battle a more varied selection of foes on a more regular basis than the Ultras is not as unsupported a viewpoint as was stated in the post to which I replied.

The moment you begin to specialize and devote more training and time to defeating one enemy you must logically devote less time to other enemies and becoming less on an all-rounder. Specializing against a certain enemy is the exact opposite of the Codex.

Saying that the Ultras are the most experienced Chapter at facing the nids is not the same as saying the Ultras are a specialised Chapter. What do you suggest they do? Refrain from being the best they can against the nid swarms, potentially allowing the Hive Fleets to push beyond the Ultima Segmentum, just because they're not logging as many hours on their return-fire ranges, or their attendance to their "ten best ways to identify cultist behaviour in humans" seminars is dropping? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the strengths of the codex astartes is that it allows the Marines to be a flexible, adaptable force able to counter any situation? Anyway, once more, my point stands: I never said the Ultras were a specialised Chapter, I said they were most known to focuse on fighting the nids.

When did I call you a liar?

You didn't. Trace mine and your posts back in order to regain the context.

I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.

Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.

Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless of your less than useful life advice, I fail to see how my explaining that somebody's tactical analysis is sorely lacking represents any kind of emotional investment.

How is me explaining that not covering your advancing troops with long range and/or heavy ordnance being a bad idea representative of "sorely lacking tactical analysis"

Black Templars lack significant long ranged capability.

According to whom (you see, it's for comments like this that citations are helpful ) Those extra six (wow, a whopping extra amount ) heavy weapons on a squad level won't count for much when the BTs outnumber the Ultras on a much more significant Chapter level.

Draigo wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.

Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?

Thats My point. You cant. There is no way you could compare the two as the only similarity between the two is organisation. There is a reason why there is no GW sanctioned "most powerful chapter", it would make the Fluff boring and everyone would play that chapter. Ultramarines might be the epitomy of a codex adhering chapter, following it to the letter in almost every way possible and upholding the beliefs of Girlyman fanatically. That has never made them a stronger chapter in battle, atleast not to My knowledge.

That is the point.

Thatguy91 wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.

Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?

Thats My point. You cant. There is no way you could compare the two as the only similarity between the two is organisation. There is a reason why there is no GW sanctioned "most powerful chapter", it would make the Fluff boring and everyone would play that chapter. Ultramarines might be the epitomy of a codex adhering chapter, following it to the letter in almost every way possible and upholding the beliefs of Girlyman fanatically. That has never made them a stronger chapter in battle, atleast not to My knowledge.

That is the point.

Then you shouldn't post on this thread because guess what thats what people are doing. lol If you feel it can't then don't participate otherwise it's gettin close to a pointless troll.

Anfauglir wrote:
Being a contradiction doesn't remove it.

Yes it does. We have two versions of Ultramarines fluff now. One in which they are strict followers of the Codex and one in which they are not.

Anfauglir wrote:
Point remains: Ultras fluff focuses more on nids than any other enemy type (as far as I'm aware, anyone better read on Ultras feel free to jump in here), whereas BT fluff states how their hatred of all three of the Imperiums enemies drives them to seek out and destroy them all. Thus, the point around which my comment was based (the context of which has now become rather lost on this roundabout), is a perfectly valid one. The notion that the BTs battle a more varied selection of foes on a more regular basis than the Ultras is not as unsupported a viewpoint as was stated in the post to which I replied.

No, one aspect of Ultramarine fluff says that, other aspects don’t’ and contradict that.

But your assertion that the Templars fight a more varied selection of foes because the Ultramarines focus on Tyranids is really unsupported by the timeline. There are 250 years between Behemoth and Kraken.

Anfauglir wrote:
Saying that the Ultras are the most experienced Chapter at facing the nids is not the same as saying the Ultras are a specialised Chapter.

But that is how they are presented in the original Tyranid Hunters article, as specialists. And it has always been a disgrace and contrary to the Chapter's fundamental background. What does every Ultramarines description prior and after the introduction of the Tyrannic War Veterans say? That they follow their Primarch's Codex Astartes to the letter and would never deviate from it. What do the two sources on Tyrannic War Veterans say? That the Tyrannic War Veterans are seen as a deviation from the Codex Astartes, but for contrived and asinine reasons were accepted none-the less. Thankfully the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines has not included them as aspecial unit anymore.

Anfauglir wrote:
What do you suggest they do? Refrain from being the best they can against the nid swarms, potentially allowing the Hive Fleets to push beyond the Ultima Segmentum, just because they're not logging as many hours on their return-fire ranges, or their attendance to their "ten best ways to identify cultist behaviour in humans" seminars is dropping? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the strengths of the codex astartes is that it allows the Marines to be a flexible, adaptable force able to counter any situation? Anyway, once more, my point stands: I never said the Ultras were a specialised Chapter, I said they were most known to focuse on fighting the nids.

The problem is that the background for the Tyrannic War Veterans is a horrible piece of writing. The Codex is amended constantly, so incorporating anti-tyranid tactics in the daily training routine would have been perfectly fine. Where the Codex disagrees is in the specialization of units, or even entire companies, in fighting one particular enemy. That would make those units or companies worse at fighting all the other foes. A unit that specializes in fighting Tyranids specifically would not be as adapt at fighting Orks or Traitor Marines as regular units would be, as they would have focused their training.

Actually both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both refering to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.

Draigo, its a forum. I am merely stating my opinion. That is the point of a forum. If you dont like it then perhaps you shouldnt be part of one.

GW has never given us a definite "most powerful chapter", therefore it is all up to personal opinion, not canon. Basically the answer to the OPs question is whatever chapter you want it to be.