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The Emperor's Pointy Sticks are clearly the most powerful chapter. They got blown to bits in nearly every battle they fought and still managed to be back at full strenght in the next comic strip.

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:So youd compare the Flame Falcons and Relicators to fighting Smurfs, BT, BA etc with the help of their secondary chapters? Really? I hardly would compare fighting those to fighting the entire umbrella of the ultramarines and their influence. Without the Inquisition the gk have no fleet to speak of. So unless you include the Inquisition and grey knights vs the others the GK alone dont stand a chance vs the others. The others have every aspect of war included from recon to heavy weapons. The gk do not because once again they count on their allies to do those things. I wouldnt get all hyped up by the gk alone just because they have a good codex and are strong WITH the Inquisition. As a stand alone force they cannot take larger chapters with more influence like the UM, BT, IF, etc.

And yet even founding chapters like the BA readily agree to yield to drastic demands like mindwipes. I'm not mentioning this stuff because i think they have a "good" codex. They've long been portrayed as a powerful chapter. I just think for someone who uses an GK-based name/avatar you don't give them enough credit or seem to acknowledge much of their fluff. For example, their chapter has a fleet 'to speak' of. One that would [to quote] be "the envy of the wider Imperium, were knowledge of it's capabilities known beyond Titan". They just don't put it on parade for everyone else to gawk at.

Admittedly, I misunderstood the stance on this situation beforehand and I wouldn't have otherwise normally gotten involved in a hypothetical situations like this, because it's silly beyond belief. Just stand back and ask - would any of this really happen? Would all those UM successors be able to shift their weight so immediately? Would the Grey Knight's be stupid enough to engage in such a ridiculous stacked situation, let alone on their own? Etc, etc. It's just as likely as that either chapter would teleport marines into your room to talk about their favourite herbal tea.

What does name and avatar have to do with facts? Just because I like the gk doesnt mean I'll say they'd wipe people out if I didnt think they could. Theyre not a well rounded army. They count too much on the inquisition/IG. Itd be like saying the BT terminators could take the smurfs.

These facts aren't that accurate. First there was the comment about the Grey Knight fleet and now you're stating that they're reliant on other forces, when it's often other imperial forces like the Inquisition that invariably call on them as a final solution. Besides, it's not so much a 'reliance' on other imperial forces as much as it is just the synergy of united force working to its collective strengths. Human forces are often treated no differently when working with other chapters – the masses taking on the brunt of the impact while the elite tackle the most difficult and/or important targets.

Dark Angels.

They turned there home world into a Space Ship, doesn't get more "Come at my bro" when you can fly your planet over the enemies and challenge them to a duel.

Alexzandvar wrote:Dark Angels.

They turned there home world into a Space Ship, doesn't get more "Come at my bro" when you can fly your planet over the enemies and challenge them to a duel.

Actually, I think the Phalanx is bigger - its described as the size of a small moon. The Rock isn't the whole of Caliban, but is believed to be a small fragment of it.

Space Wolves. They have at 1400 Marines, they have alot of Psykers and they use tactics that generally work well.

I would like to see DA on top!

rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. They have at 1400 Marines, they have alot of Psykers and they use tactics that generally work well.

+++WARNING: INCOMING BLACK TEMPLAR BIAS+++

Bah! The unknown sized but definitely-more-than-1400 Chapter known as the Black Templars laugh at your puny cubs and their cowardly, unclean psykers. They curbstomp the lot of you with their immense fleet and zealous, fanatical masses of troops.

Draigo wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.

I think its between:

Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.

This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.

Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.

I presume you have read the GK Omnibus here, they have easily the toughest ships in the Imperium and its not as though they are without firepower. They make good use of the best of the Imperium resources. They are independent of the Inquisition, the Inquisition uses them as its main anti-Daemon Astartes. They have stated many times that they are not just at the beck and call of the Inqisition. They make the choice themselves whether they deem the mission worth their presence. The Grand Masters have overall decision of what they do. All armies can be overwhelmed by numbers but GK still have 1000men the same size as most other single Chapters. I wouldn't like to face 100 GK's, they are superior in every way to normal marines. They still have transports, LR's they get Stormravens, Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights.

I thought this was a one on one chapter thing. If then its definitely Blood Angels, crazy successor chapters as well? I doubt even the Ultramarines can control that especially with aformentioned BA vehicles.

rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. They have at 1400 Marines, they have alot of Psykers and they use tactics that generally work well.

Oh the hypocrisy.

Void__Dragon wrote:In an influence sort of way the Ultramarines are by far the most powerful.

Calgar effectively has most Ultramarine successor chapters on speed-dial.

He is probably the most influential Space Marine in the Imperium.

I have to agree with this one^^

Coolyo294 wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. They have at 1400 Marines, they have alot of Psykers and they use tactics that generally work well.

Oh the hypocrisy.

I know it is hypocrisy but Leman thought he had to destroy the Thousand Sons not bring them back. Blame Horrus not Leman. Also, the access to Fenrisian Wolves and cavalry makes them even cooler.

phantommaster wrote:

Draigo wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.

I think its between:

Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.

This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.

Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.

I presume you have read the GK Omnibus here, they have easily the toughest ships in the Imperium and its not as though they are without firepower. They make good use of the best of the Imperium resources. They are independent of the Inquisition, the Inquisition uses them as its main anti-Daemon Astartes. They have stated many times that they are not just at the beck and call of the Inqisition. They make the choice themselves whether they deem the mission worth their presence. The Grand Masters have overall decision of what they do. All armies can be overwhelmed by numbers but GK still have 1000men the same size as most other single Chapters. I wouldn't like to face 100 GK's, they are superior in every way to normal marines. They still have transports, LR's they get Stormravens, Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights.

I thought this was a one on one chapter thing. If then its definitely Blood Angels, crazy successor chapters as well? I doubt even the Ultramarines can control that especially with aformentioned BA vehicles.

They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.

DG are awesome


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DG are awesome!

Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.

The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".

As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.

Grey Knights by far, they have numbers greater than any codex chapter and each individual's training and abilities far surpass those of a Black Templar, Space Wolf, or any other non-codex chapter marine. And that is only before you get to the aegis armor or force weapons and all of the other equipment.

cordan123 wrote:Grey Knights by far, they have numbers greater than any codex chapter and each individual's training and abilities far surpass those of a Black Templar, Space Wolf, or any other non-codex chapter marine. And that is only before you get to the aegis armor or force weapons and all of the other equipment.

I thought the new Codex had them back dwon to 1000 Marines ?

I would go with one of these

Ultramarines - due to having own realm and resources, connections and infleunce with their successor Chapters
Black Templars - They are known to have thousands of Marines maybe as many as 10,000 or even more

Several Chapters like the Iron Hands have very strong links with the Mechancius - which is worth a lot.............

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.

The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".

As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.

You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.

Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.

GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.

Oh god, there's tea everywhere! Can I sig that?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.

How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.

Draigo wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.

How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.

I am only trying to state how superior they are. If a basic GK beats both a captain and a sgt, even when we are not counting in his superior wargear and psychic power, then you can imagine how it would go when he uses them. A justicar shot down by lasguns? I have never seen something like that, but sure, some may think that'd be possible.

GK ships are powerful as other SM ships- except that they are of superior craft, crew and weaponry, of course, but it seems you conside that irrelevant. Gk is also really subtle; if figting ultras they could easily blast apart ultramar before the massed successors could respond.

Remember that GK's are really pushed down in the rules. Gw wants you to buy a lot of them to play in high points matches.

GK do not need the inquisiton at all. If you doubt as to the power of Gk ships, I could get you some pictures that attest otherwise.....

If everyone both carries highly protective armor (to the point of artificier-level, to say the least) and carry stormbolters (and more than know how to use them) then firefights should be for from a trouble. And if BT would try to get close....

In fact, I just realised that comparing it to a fight of gretchin against stormtroopers is an apt one, don't you think?

In a list:
1) Ultramarines-Massive political power.
2) Dark Angels-Again political power plus a massive space ship
3) Space Wolves-Some political power (With various organisations of the Imperium though they have an equal nuber of rivals) plus numbers and their position in the galaxy.
4) Imperial Fists- Really massive spaceship and some political power...
5) Black Templars-Numbers (They are too spread out for their numbers to be effective against any 1 target)

That's my opinion.
GK don't count as a proper SM chapter IMO.
They are but they don't act like one since they serve as the Inquisition's chamber militant...

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Draigo wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.

How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.

I am only trying to state how superior they are. If a basic GK beats both a captain and a sgt, even when we are not counting in his superior wargear and psychic power, then you can imagine how it would go when he uses them. A justicar shot down by lasguns? I have never seen something like that, but sure, some may think that'd be possible.

GK ships are powerful as other SM ships- except that they are of superior craft, crew and weaponry, of course, but it seems you conside that irrelevant. Gk is also really subtle; if figting ultras they could easily blast apart ultramar before the massed successors could respond.

Remember that GK's are really pushed down in the rules. Gw wants you to buy a lot of them to play in high points matches.

GK do not need the inquisiton at all. If you doubt as to the power of Gk ships, I could get you some pictures that attest otherwise.....

If everyone both carries highly protective armor (to the point of artificier-level, to say the least) and carry stormbolters (and more than know how to use them) then firefights should be for from a trouble. And if BT would try to get close....

In fact, I just realised that comparing it to a fight of gretchin against stormtroopers is an apt one, don't you think?

So you use killing ground but you say youhavent read their actual omnimbus where the gk get wrecked by cultists so it may or not be possible? Um it happen read the book. The "gk ships" are malleus ships piloted by the Inquisition. Again use your own source black library. Also powers are irrelevant since again use your own source black library not every gk can actually use powers in an offensive manner. Only 1 of the 10 characters actually was able to use an offensive power. He was the leader of the terminators. Which again was retconned by the new codex since now only paladins can use holocaust. So dex trumps books as far as cannon. So here we have anoher reason gk cant win.

1. You dont have powers tha tmake a difference.
2. You dont have a fleet.
3. You do not have resources on Titan without outside help.
4. You have nothing but shock troops.
5. You don't have a lot of heavy support since gk are not huge fans of becoming dreadnaughts.
6. Your heavy hitters can't participate since theyre in the warp or carrying weapons that make everyone wanna smash their face in.
7. Youre incredibly slow to replace losses since you only take psy potential which make up their resistnce to the warp not offense.
8. If you refuse to accept the black library isnt relevant you need to read more becuse gk get their ass handed to em by IG, untrained cultitsts, etc. too killing ground is not the only source.
9. You get your stuff from Mars like everyone else.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Draigo wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.

How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.

I am only trying to state how superior they are. If a basic GK beats both a captain and a sgt, even when we are not counting in his superior wargear and psychic power, then you can imagine how it would go when he uses them. A justicar shot down by lasguns? I have never seen something like that, but sure, some may think that'd be possible.

GK ships are powerful as other SM ships- except that they are of superior craft, crew and weaponry, of course, but it seems you conside that irrelevant. Gk is also really subtle; if figting ultras they could easily blast apart ultramar before the massed successors could respond.

Remember that GK's are really pushed down in the rules. Gw wants you to buy a lot of them to play in high points matches.

GK do not need the inquisiton at all. If you doubt as to the power of Gk ships, I could get you some pictures that attest otherwise.....

If everyone both carries highly protective armor (to the point of artificier-level, to say the least) and carry stormbolters (and more than know how to use them) then firefights should be for from a trouble. And if BT would try to get close....

In fact, I just realised that comparing it to a fight of gretchin against stormtroopers is an apt one, don't you think?

I wouldn't say the raging, psker-hating, pschic power-resistant, chainsword-wielding and highly skilled hand-to-hand fighters of the BT would be as easily bested in close combat with GK as is being suggested. As for naval power, BT pack the more than GK, alongside IF and DA. In a space battle, BT beat GK hands down, and in planet-surface fighting, BT also win, because while they may be inferior to GK 1 on 1, they are more tactically versatile and have numbers on their side. As for Grimaldus, if a whole Imperial Cathedral collapsing on his head doesn't kill him, I don't think GK would be able to easily either. I think a better way of comparing GK and BT would be to compare Stormtroopers to IG infantry platoons led by priests. At the end of the day, how are GK going to manage, with their fleet driven off, without armoured support and nothing but shiny weapons and armour to save them from the BT charging at them on all sides, while Blessed Hull LRC's threaten to run them over.

Brother Coa wrote:

Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?

And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.

Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.

If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.

Hate to jump on the Ultramarine bandwagon, but I would say that they are the most powerful chapter. Calgar is so influential that he can call upon every chapter that has their geneseed, and I think the number is even more than 600,000. They have a literal empire in the Segmentum Solar, and they probably have the largest fleet (ignoring the Space Wolves who have direct ties to House.... Belarious... something like that... or the Black Templars with their large Crusading Fleet). They are largely self sufficient with whole planets devoted to agriculture and manufacturing. And Tiberius... well I would think he could wipe the floor with the Grey Knights Psychics.

Of course... if the Ultramarines aren't allowed to call upon their successor chapters on a dime, then Black Templar would most likely win. Also remember please the Space Marine battle plans - they are not great for digging in and defending - Epic 40,000 had it right where they were specialised forces able to deep strike lightning quick into a battle, kil everything, and get out.

Draigo wrote:

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.

The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".

As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.

You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.

Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.

Someone's forgetting that the Grey Knights have their own Martian Forgemoon, huh?

The parts I pick are the only statements I vehemently disagree with and know not to be true using the sources I have at hand. I have no problem with you or anyone else claiming that chapter “x” could beat the Grey Knights as an offhand opinion but it's hard to sit back when people start perpetuating false information about them as though they're pedalling facts.

Furthermore, neither of the sources I have used above have been 'retconned'. The Imperialis Armageddon is one of the most detailed pieces of work we have regarding the First War on Armageddon and is still hosted freely by the official GW website. The other is from the most recent version of the codex itself, specifically pages 11 and 13. The phrases I've used have always specified that they are talking about Grey Knight forces and not otherwise. Some people may not give them a lot of credit but GW writer's do tend to make it very obvious when they're talking about Inquisitors and/or Grey Knights. Please check them out before making such crass and incorrect accusations.

As for the rest, it's hard to reply to such an argument because it is so incoherent and it lacks any concrete source citing. You do nothing to directly confront the specific issues raised by using your own sources. Instead you sidestep the point to make an irrelevant accusation. For example, all I was trying to do with my previous comment about the Grey Knight fleet was demonstrate they have the weapons capability - opposed to what you had previously wrote about them lacking weapons. But instead of just acknowledging that information or countering it with a better source that says the GK ships don't have weapons, you make a leaping assumption that I'm trying to also say the GK fleet could defeat the UM fleet. It seems very nonsensical and even flippant. If you really believe you can contest my evidence directly then back it up with a source rather than sidestepping the issue. Otherwise it all just amounts to blowing hot air.

I'd still say Templars beat the Grey Knights. Outnumbered at least 6 to 1, fighting a Chapter who is among the best in the Imperium when it comes to fleet combat (cf. Third War for Armageddon fluff) isn't a very good position to be in.

Russ Mandarin wrote:The Ultramarines always seem to float by on the fact that they have greater resources then XYZ but not skill? So essentiallly its just IG tactics for them now and forever

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No...the Ultramarines are no less "skilled" than any other chapter.
The Ultramarines have equivalent "man for man" capability (the average Ultramarine isn't going to be weaker than an average SM from chapter X) plus numbers (a tightly knit network of successors) plus resources (the realm of Ultramar)

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.

The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".

As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.

You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.

Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.

Someone's forgetting that the Grey Knights have their own Martian Forgemoon, huh?

The parts I pick are the only statements I vehemently disagree with and know not to be true using the sources I have at hand. I have no problem with you or anyone else claiming that chapter “x” could beat the Grey Knights as an offhand opinion but it's hard to sit back when people start perpetuating false information about them as though they're pedalling facts.

Furthermore, neither of the sources I have used above have been 'retconned'. The Imperialis Armageddon is one of the most detailed pieces of work we have regarding the First War on Armageddon and is still hosted freely by the official GW website. The other is from the most recent version of the codex itself, specifically pages 11 and 13. The phrases I've used have always specified that they are talking about Grey Knight forces and not otherwise. Some people may not give them a lot of credit but GW writer's do tend to make it very obvious when they're talking about Inquisitors and/or Grey Knights. Please check them out before making such crass and incorrect accusations.

As for the rest, it's hard to reply to such an argument because it is so incoherent and it lacks any concrete source citing. You do nothing to directly confront the specific issues raised by using your own sources. Instead you sidestep the point to make an irrelevant accusation. For example, all I was trying to do with my previous comment about the Grey Knight fleet was demonstrate they have the weapons capability - opposed to what you had previously wrote about them lacking weapons. But instead of just acknowledging that information or countering it with a better source that says the GK ships don't have weapons, you make a leaping assumption that I'm trying to also say the GK fleet could defeat the UM fleet. It seems very nonsensical and even flippant. If you really believe you can contest my evidence directly then back it up with a source rather than sidestepping the issue. Otherwise it all just amounts to blowing hot air.

I mentioned mars are did you not read that? My statements were not incoherent or flippant. Nor did I side step I used the facts of ACTUAL warfare and what is needed to win. Without fluff armor and Inquisition gk cannot win. The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups. gk have no leg to stand on without the inquisition. As far counters to your pts I stated where there was information about that but apparently you didnt read that either. In a following post a person tried to use killing ground as a basisi of a gk vicotry but didnt take into account the gk's own omnibus where they lose to cultists and the like. In those novels it states the gk ships are not combat ships and needed 2 hereticus ships to fight the chaos ships. So no I think you need to read more carefully.