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Harriticus wrote:
Dark Angels seem to have close, almost subversive ties to many successor chapters such as the Angels of Absolution/Angels of Redemption/Disciples of Caliban as well. My guess is the DA command these chapters loyalty much more then the Adeptus Terra, and this DA alliance is something of a shadow empire.

They aren't subversive ties, they're direct chain of command. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels is in charge of all the Unforgiven.

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DAaddict wrote:Ultras - control a whole quadrant of the Imperium.

Eight systems is not a quadrant. Not by a long shot.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Harriticus wrote:
Dark Angels seem to have close, almost subversive ties to many successor chapters such as the Angels of Absolution/Angels of Redemption/Disciples of Caliban as well. My guess is the DA command these chapters loyalty much more then the Adeptus Terra, and this DA alliance is something of a shadow empire.

They aren't subversive ties, they're direct chain of command. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels is in charge of all the Unforgiven.

Didn't the DA codex mention one successor chapter that isn't under the thumb of the DA? They decided to ditch chasing after the fallen and now do their own thing. Totally forget the name though.

daveNYC wrote:
Didn't the DA codex mention one successor chapter that isn't under the thumb of the DA? They decided to ditch chasing after the fallen and now do their own thing. Totally forget the name though.

Only thing close to that is the Angels of Absolution who already consider themselves free of guilt concerning the Fallen. They are explicitly still part of the Dark Angels pyramid though.

As a fan of stealth, I'm a Raven Guard fanboy. And as anyone in Special Forces can tell you, stealth, experience and skill make up for numbers. So take that, Ultrasmurfs!

The whole "Ultramarines because they have successor chapters" argument I find to be kinda invalid. Almost any first founding chapter could do the same. Sure, the ultramarines might have a whole bunch of them sitting around but so do most other first founding chapters.

IF, as mentioned earlier, have ALOT of them aswell, including the BT. Although it is questionable whether or not they would answer the call.

DA also have a whole bunch of them and they are utterly ruthless. Dont forget that the Deathwing and Ravenwing are included here.

BA have heaps of them and some of them are mental so you would have quite a fight on your hands.

Btw totally agree with the IF dont get enough attention thing. They are, atleast to me, the most interesting chapter and really deserved to be fleshed out alot more. Big fan of Rogal Dorn aswell, would love to see a IF codex or atleast some more info on them in future releases.

imo based on what I've read from and the like Dark Angels really seem to be the only one whose successor chapters can be considered part of their "power", it seems like a formal chain of command.

Ultramarines have 8 systems and a large/capable PDF, but otherwise the epitome of a Codex Chapter so 1,000 Marines and 2-3 Battle Barges. They can't stand up to the GK/Black Templars (if the latter was ever fully assembled, which it isn't) or the Dark Angels coalition.

It pains me to say it but Im going with Smurfs. They have the whole package. Strong political ties and a whole empire to work from. Not only are they a vastley experienced chapter in thier own right but if thier successors were to answer a call of aid then I dont think any other chapter could match the numbers. Maybe the IF and BT?

Thatguy91 wrote:The whole "Ultramarines because they have successor chapters" argument I find to be kinda invalid. Almost any first founding chapter could do the same. Sure, the ultramarines might have a whole bunch of them sitting around but so do most other first founding chapters.
.

Yeah but the thing is 1.) 60% of all chapters today are descended from Ultras and 2.) C:SM explicitly says that if Calgar snaps his fingers they will all come running since he is their spiritual liege. I don't know if the Red Talons and the Brazen Claws have a similar affinity to the Iron Hands but for the sake of argument let us assume they do.

The fact remains that no other first founding legion can match the Ultras, simple math says the balance 40% of successor chapters are split 6 ways (Salamanders and Space Wolves are not included) no way that compares to the Ultras. And yes for some founders (say IF) their successor chapters may be overstrength (BT) but likewise others are depleted (Crimson Fists) so we can just agree its a wash.

So even though I don't really like them at all I have to give it to the Ultramarines :p

My personal thought is grey knights because they get the best stuff

Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.

I think its between:

Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.

This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.

All sm chapters are the same, but which is the powerful in terms of ire power numbers, librarians ect. And of course why?

Chapter with most numbers: Black Templar. Why? They pretty much declare any marine who they cant see in person dead and replace him. But never have more than 1000 brothers in any given place.
Chapter with most librarians: Blood Ravens. Why? Their gene seed is almost definitely from the sorcerer primarch Magnus, so they are more common.

And the rest;

The Ultramarines definitely have the most successors, but as far as all of them doing whatever Calgar says that's just not the case.
They're completely different organisations and have been separate for thousands of years.
A lot of them don't even adhere to the Codex Astartes, and are stationed no where near Ultramar.

Obviously this is all silly and just speculation but I think Dante the Blood Angel chapter master would command more respect from his legions successors than Calgar

With Dark Angels though the supreme grand master of the founding chapter remains (secretly and illegally) in charge of all the successors.
So basically they're still a legion in all but name. Their first company is probably the most "powerful" in the Imperium too
The rock is suppose to be one of the Imperiums strongest space fortress/ships as well, with the Imperial fists Phalax suppose to be the only thing better.

phantommaster wrote:Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.

I think its between:

Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.

This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.

Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.

Question: Fluff wise how many SW great companies are there? No I know that their size can greatly vary but it seems to me that the space vikings might be uncoordinated but if Logan called for a raid, I think it would be a pain in the a$$.

While I agree with a lot of the commentary about the DA being powerful. Their great secret leads them to not trust anyone outside of the circle. So assuming it is not a pure power struggle (i.e. Marneus sets himself up as the new emporer) the Ultramarines are default going to win the political battle of the Dark Angels. So say the Ultramarines only get 60% of their chapters to do their bidding while the DA get 100%. I would bet that the ultramarines will get some other chapter to back them through politics and gladly accept their aid while the Dark Angels will distrust anyone in all but a diversionary way.

There are 13 SW great companies but the 13th isn't officially there anymore. Lost during the heresy but elements still remain

Oh yeah for sure. The Ultramarines are loved and admired throughout the Imperium. The Dark Angels are hated and untrusted.

DAaddict wrote:Question: Fluff wise how many SW great companies are there? No I know that their size can greatly vary but it seems to me that the space vikings might be uncoordinated but if Logan called for a raid, I think it would be a pain in the a$$.

While I agree with a lot of the commentary about the DA being powerful. Their great secret leads them to not trust anyone outside of the circle. So assuming it is not a pure power struggle (i.e. Marneus sets himself up as the new emporer) the Ultramarines are default going to win the political battle of the Dark Angels. So say the Ultramarines only get 60% of their chapters to do their bidding while the DA get 100%. I would bet that the ultramarines will get some other chapter to back them through politics and gladly accept their aid while the Dark Angels will distrust anyone in all but a diversionary way.

Politics play little to no role in this most chapter feel greater kinship to the emepror rather than their founding chapter the BA and Da are notable exceptions

Draigo wrote:Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.

Well their minimal fleet activity helps to keep their presence to a low - in and out before anyone notices, etc. But I'm not sure where you get the notion of struggling to supplant other chapters from. They've always been willing and able to deploy enough troops to do that task when required. Considering the state they left the Flame Falcons and the Relictors in, they're very good at doing so too.

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.

Well their minimal fleet activity helps to keep their presence to a low - in and out before anyone notices, etc. But I'm not sure where you get the notion of struggling to supplant other chapters from. They've always been willing and able to deploy enough troops to do that task when required. Considering the state they left the Flame Falcons and the Relictors in, they're very good at doing so too.

So youd compare the Flame Falcons and Relicators to fighting Smurfs, BT, BA etc with the help of their secondary chapters? Really? I hardly would compare fighting those to fighting the entire umbrella of the ultramarines and their influence. Without the Inquisition the gk have no fleet to speak of. So unless you include the Inquisition and grey knights vs the others the GK alone dont stand a chance vs the others. The others have every aspect of war included from recon to heavy weapons. The gk do not because once again they count on their allies to do those things. I wouldnt get all hyped up by the gk alone just because they have a good codex and are strong WITH the Inquisition. As a stand alone force they cannot take larger chapters with more influence like the UM, BT, IF, etc.

Grey knights have the skill not the numbers.

I wonder... If GK could call upon their successor chapter, would that tip the scales into their favor?

The GK have a successor chapter?

There was at least one officially listed, they were organized as codex I believe, but part of their initiation was to be possessed for a short time (I forget just how long) the result of this was that the marines were virtually invisible to daemons. I think they sent 100 of them to a daemon planet with a kill ratio of around 1000:1.

CrashCanuck wrote:There was at least one officially listed, they were organized as codex I believe, but part of their initiation was to be possessed for a short time (I forget just how long) the result of this was that the marines were virtually invisible to daemons. I think they sent 100 of them to a daemon planet with a kill ratio of around 1000:1.

I do recall things like that, though I can not remember the name. I did not know about that KDR though. If that is true, then that is impressive, even for SM.

They are called the Exorcists.

Draigo wrote:They are called the Exorcists.

Ah yes, that's it. Thanks there mate.

They have to be possessed for at least 12 hours during which they have to struggle to not fall to chaos. The possession and exorcism makes them invisible to all but the strongest of daemons. According to lexicanum, they have at least 12 companies.

Okay, I'm back on comp: According to Warhammer 40k Wiki, it's 12 companies. It also appears that their Captain of 3rd Company, Silas Alberec, is HUGE (like Ogryn huge), he's slated to be the next Chapter Master who is currently unknown.

Ultramarines
1) they have the most resources (realm of Ultramar)
2) they can call on their successors

Why is it that whenever it comes down to chapter vs chapter. The Ultramarines always seem to float by on the fact that they have greater resources then XYZ but not skill? So essentiallly its just IG tactics for them now and forever.

If the Grey Knights were backed by the Inquisition like we all know they will be I don't see them losing any engagement. They are the "best" chapter.

The Ultramarines hands down. Owns at least one empire. And if old fluff is to be believed two of their second founding chapters owns their own empires.

By the individual Space marines it must be the Grey Knights.

As for the overall most powerful soldiers in the Imperium of Mankind it's the Custodes. Their basic trooper likely would have S: 5, T: 5 and so on.

Draigo wrote:So youd compare the Flame Falcons and Relicators to fighting Smurfs, BT, BA etc with the help of their secondary chapters? Really? I hardly would compare fighting those to fighting the entire umbrella of the ultramarines and their influence. Without the Inquisition the gk have no fleet to speak of. So unless you include the Inquisition and grey knights vs the others the GK alone dont stand a chance vs the others. The others have every aspect of war included from recon to heavy weapons. The gk do not because once again they count on their allies to do those things. I wouldnt get all hyped up by the gk alone just because they have a good codex and are strong WITH the Inquisition. As a stand alone force they cannot take larger chapters with more influence like the UM, BT, IF, etc.

And yet even founding chapters like the BA readily agree to yield to drastic demands like mindwipes. I'm not mentioning this stuff because i think they have a "good" codex. They've long been portrayed as a powerful chapter. I just think for someone who uses an GK-based name/avatar you don't give them enough credit or seem to acknowledge much of their fluff. For example, their chapter has a fleet 'to speak' of. One that would [to quote] be "the envy of the wider Imperium, were knowledge of it's capabilities known beyond Titan". They just don't put it on parade for everyone else to gawk at.

Admittedly, I misunderstood the stance on this situation beforehand and I wouldn't have otherwise normally gotten involved in a hypothetical situations like this, because it's silly beyond belief. Just stand back and ask - would any of this really happen? Would all those UM successors be able to shift their weight so immediately? Would the Grey Knight's be stupid enough to engage in such a ridiculous stacked situation, let alone on their own? Etc, etc. It's just as likely as that either chapter would teleport marines into your room to talk about their favourite herbal tea.