Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If you guys want to talk about owed loyalties and bonds the easy answer is the Black Templars. The first Emperor's Champion defended Terra and turned back the enemy at the gates of the Imperail Palace. Every single chapter owes their survival and the Survivial of the Imperium to the actions of the Emperor's Champion and the first companty of the imperial Fist.

There are over 6,000 black templars along with thier successors like the red templars and others. They would also have the loyalty of thousands of plantes where they liberated or maintain chapter keeps. So with that they have their own massive emprie covering most of imperial space.

It says in the BT Codex that if the entierty of the BT chapter was assembled in one place it would be unstopable.

IF you look at the smurfs allot of those chapters owe loyalty to the BT for saving them when they are on the verge of distruction.

Black Templars
-Have thousands of planets under their control and hundreds of chapter keeps
-Largest fleet period
-More land raiders than any other chapter
-Built for CCW where other space marine chapters will be outclassed
-thousands of Neophites (normal space marine scouts with more training)
-Ability to fight psycars because of incredible belief in the emperor that is only rivaled by the Grey Knights



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigismund is still not dead, he is a freaking super soldier from the dawn of the empire. If he still lives and fights his chapter will never be bested. Without him no other chapter would exist today.

did he ask what chaper was most influential? nope
the most powerfull chapter must be space wolves, they have executed a total of 3 founder (the first 20) chapters, they have also had a squad in the EOT since the horus heresy chasing down a primarch. grey knights are powefull i will give you that, but i bet you they couldent do that, they would either be killed or eventually corrupted, the space wolf so called "defect" that makes them resistant to the taint of chaos is how they have stayed loyal to the emperor. as for the total fighting ability of the grey knights in general, they specialise in demons, put anything else in front of them and they would probably be average. cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons. hence the reason the DKOK often have commisars attached to there squads to curb there zeal, yup, commisars reducing zeal O.o.
as for calgar speed dialing succesors, thats not the power of a single chapter is it? anyway, even if it was rowboat girlyman asking for help, when he mentions that they have killed 3 founding chapters, he's just gonna get given the middle finger...

Actually I was advocating for non gk but I much prefer gk and one of the strongest proponents for gk was a csm player so not sure if your favorite comment applies. lol

Nazgren wrote:did he ask what chaper was most influential? nope
the most powerfull chapter must be space wolves, they have executed a total of 3 founder (the first 20) chapters, they have also had a squad in the EOT since the horus heresy chasing down a primarch. grey knights are powefull i will give you that, but i bet you they couldent do that, they would either be killed or eventually corrupted, the space wolf so called "defect" that makes them resistant to the taint of chaos is how they have stayed loyal to the emperor. as for the total fighting ability of the grey knights in general, they specialise in demons, put anything else in front of them and they would probably be average. cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons. hence the reason the DKOK often have commisars attached to there squads to curb there zeal, yup, commisars reducing zeal O.o.
as for calgar speed dialing succesors, thats not the power of a single chapter is it? anyway, even if it was rowboat girlyman asking for help, when he mentions that they have killed 3 founding chapters, he's just gonna get given the middle finger...

Powerful is spelled with one L.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.

Codex: Grey Knights Page 27:

To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.

Which answers your statement about "average" pretty well, doesn't it?

UNREALPwnage wrote:If you guys want to talk about owed loyalties and bonds the easy answer is the Black Templars.

IF you look at the smurfs allot of those chapters owe loyalty to the BT for saving them when they are on the verge of distruction.

While I agree that the Imperial Fist Legion was fundamental to Terra's stand against Horus' invasion, and that Sigismund was a total boss for the part he played, I feel it's going a little too far to claim that the survival of the entire Astartes was down to the BT (I mean, they didn't even exist quite yet). All the loyal Legions played their part. The Ultramarines weren't there properly for the big throw down, so for all we know their contribution could have rivaled or even surpassed that of the IF. Also, we must consider the aftermath: Dorn was dead set against Guilliman's Codex proposal, another rift was forming that well could have turned into another civil war. Guilliman's blueprint for the Astartes prevailied in the end, though, and it's him and his Codex that is responsible for the Astartes as they are now. For this reason, I would argue that most, if not all, Codex Chapters would pledge their loyalty to him and the Ultramarines above the firebrand Templars, and claim that the survival of the Space Marines is down to Guilliman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nazgren wrote:cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons.

Yeah, it's a worthy point to make, as it's deffinately a double-edged sword. I'd say at least some of the BT's numerical advantage would be cancelled out by all their Furious Charges . . .

I'm just going to reiterate how the BT if called to one place would have the largest fleet the imperium would see, under the command of the best naval commander in all the imperim. So if anyone can come up with something that could beat that (and please have it be something that is under direct control of that chapter, not some crap about calling for successors or the fact that there is what 1500 to 2k sw, well let's see there's 6k BT) so someone please come up with real rebuttal, that could counter that, that is directly under the control of the chapter you would like to talk about.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Which answers your statement about "average" pretty well, doesn't it?

Well, yes and no. You still need to factor in the point I raised before about the price you pay for specialising. I certainly wouldn't say the GK are average in any situation, but, as I've been trying to explain: it isn't as simple as that, and also the point about being Chapter-based, not individual Marine-based.

Anfauglir wrote:

UNREALPwnage wrote:If you guys want to talk about owed loyalties and bonds the easy answer is the Black Templars.

IF you look at the smurfs allot of those chapters owe loyalty to the BT for saving them when they are on the verge of distruction.

While I agree that the Imperial Fist Legion was fundamental to Terra's stand against Horus' invasion, and that Sigismund was a total boss for the part he played, I feel it's going a little too far to claim that the survival of the entire Astartes was down to the BT (I mean, they didn't even exist quite yet). All the loyal Legions played their part. The Ultramarines weren't there properly for the big throw down, so for all we know their contribution could have rivaled or even surpassed that of the IF. Also, we must consider the aftermath: Dorn was dead set against Guilliman's Codex proposal, another rift was forming that well could have turned into another civil war. Guilliman's blueprint for the Astartes prevailied in the end, though, and it's him and his Codex that is responsible for the Astartes as they are now. For this reason, I would argue that most, if not all, Codex Chapters would pledge their loyalty to him and the Ultramarines above the firebrand Templars, and claim that the survival of the Space Marines is down to Guilliman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nazgren wrote:cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons.

Yeah, it's a worthy point to make, as it's deffinately a double-edged sword. I'd say at least some of the BT's numerical advantage would be cancelled out by all their Furious Charges . . .

At this point people are going to start throwing primarchs and founders names out there, because if i really wanted to say something like that i could say well Sigisimund is still alive and if he were to make his pressence shown then all other chapters would listen seeing as he was in charge waaay back in the day, but then someone else would say well the Girlyman would step out he would be boss, then someone would say RUSS has come back from the warp, oh here we go, The LION returns, so lets all just hold hands stand togather stop thinking that we have to worry about the toughest SM chapter and say the Loyalists are stronger then the Traitors.

Rainbow Marines all day everyday 24-7 365.

Greyish wrote:To OP: Not all SM Chapters are all the same. it depends on what kind of specific power you're talking about. Here's what I believe though:

Most populous single chapter: Black Templars
Most powerful chapter per marine: Grey Knights
Most influential chapter: Ultramarines

This.

Black Templars are easily the best. Best fleet? Yes. Most marines? Yes. Most connections? Yes (this is important, just because they can't summon as many other marine chapters to their aid doesn't stop them being more powerful in this aspect. They have keeps all over the galaxy, whereas the Ultras only are around in the east. They've helped so many more people than them and conquered more galaxy. Ultras pale in comparison.). To add to this they're close combat masters (the GK aren't so much better fighters, they're just psychicly able and are selected for this. They may have better equipment but there's more BT so this is nullified) and just berserk, although this doesn't prevent them carrying out their missions effectively, it only makes them more powerful. Unlike Kriegers, they individually have a greater grasp of tactics, so when they need to fight they''l fight hard, but they also can hold back.

It's the Ultramarines, by a large margin. Their own fleet is impressive, but on top of that, they have the huge fleet operated by the Navy of Ultramar. In addition to their own numbers, they then have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Imperial Guard quality PDF troopers to call on. The Ultramarines would be, without question, the most comfortable with combined arms actions with Imperial Navy and Guard forces, and have the ability to summon their own supporting elements in the event that official Imperial elements aren't available.

As far as the amusing post above me goes... Wow. That would have only been more adorable if it had been written in the first person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anfauglir wrote:

Nazgren wrote:cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons.

Yeah, it's a worthy point to make, as it's deffinately a double-edged sword. I'd say at least some of the BT's numerical advantage would be cancelled out by all their Furious Charges . . .

There's a reason the Templars are so large, and recruit so aggressively. They fight like Doritos. "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Their casualties must be horrendous in most battles.

I'm just saying, BT have a fleet that severely outclasses and outnumbers that of the Ultras, as well as arguably the best naval commander the IoM has in command of this. The Templars have 6000 marines at least, and there are probably more. So in a chapter on chapter fight, the Ultras are out numbered and outgunned on land and in space. One could argue that Templars are also more experienced fighters, quite simply because they go looking for fights with everyone and so are just plain adept at killing, whereas the Ultras own experience is limited to fighting Tau and Nids. It's not like BT are running at them wearing chainmail either, they're astartes and so are well equipped, trained and are still capable of making sound tactical decisions, with the advantage of naturally following them with greater Zeal. So in a one on one between BT and Ultra, a BT would have slight disadvantage. So supposing statistically to fight the actual Ultramarines chapter they used 1000 marines, that still leaves 5000 marines (at least!) to fight the Ultramar Empire's forces. Essentially, to fight the BT is to fight six chapters, not just one, and so the Ultras will loose.

And Veteran Sergeant, you needn't be so patronising. I was only putting forward my opinion and it wasn't exactly a troll or without thought.

Banzaimash wrote:I'm just saying, BT have a fleet that severely outclasses and outnumbers that of the Ultras, as well as arguably the best naval commander the IoM has in command of this. The Templars have 6000 marines at least, and there are probably more. So in a chapter on chapter fight, the Ultras are out numbered and outgunned on land and in space.

Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys. The Ultramarines can bring to bear a vast fleet of Ultramar Navy, and Guard. The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines and without having the tactical advantages of traditional scout teams) and a large fleet. The Ultramarines have 1000 Marines, hundreds of thousands of guardsmen, and a massive combined fleet. This is a chapter that stopped an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet and survived.

One could argue that Templars are also more experienced fighters

Heh.

Essentially, to fight the BT is to fight six chapters, not just one, and so the Ultras will loose.

Heh.

And Veteran Sergeant, you needn't be so patronising. I was only putting forward my opinion and it wasn't exactly a troll or without thought.

It's hard to fault me for being amused. I didn't type that nonsense. I only enjoyed it.

this is just a bunch of puppies ranting about how theirs is strongest, what it all boils down to, is who has the biggest (insert here) we shalt not go there.
so i believe it has been said already:
Who has the most numbers BT, who has the best single marines GK, but i would not agre with most influence being ultra, all chapters have alot of influence but that is really only the knowledge of the chapter master seeing is how he holds all the secrets, yea we know ultra has its own system, but who controls terra...IF, GK have their own fortress moon, and dont forget DA with their half planet that no one can find, and BT are spread through out the galaxy and im sure no other chapter knows where all their keeps are therefore they would be near impossible to erradicate bc you could never find all of their monistaries, BA are influential as well, so the only this post really holds is to restate it asking
"Which space marine chapter is the strongest ignoring outside assets of that exact chapter I.E. no callling other chapters to help or IG to come save their butts?"

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's the Ultramarines, by a large margin. Their own fleet is impressive, but on top of that, they have the huge fleet operated by the Navy of Ultramar. In addition to their own numbers, they then have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Imperial Guard quality PDF troopers to call on. The Ultramarines would be, without question, the most comfortable with combined arms actions with Imperial Navy and Guard forces, and have the ability to summon their own supporting elements in the event that official Imperial elements aren't available.

You make a good case for the Ultras, however, as I've said before the nature of the TC's question is pretty general and vague when you factor in all the elements and variables. I think some of the other posters are the closest thing to being "correct" when they say; numbers = BT, individual Marines = GK and influence = Ultras. Yet, it's still far from definitive and rather foolhardy to simply right off all the others like IF, DA, BA, etc. But without more specific paramaters in the question, it's going to be very hard for anyone - no matter how good their case - to give more specific answers.

There's a reason the Templars are so large, and recruit so aggressively. They fight like Doritos. "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Their casualties must be horrendous in most battles.

Whoa now, I said it was a worthy point to make, but lets not over do it. Sure, they're a little more hot-headed and CQB-focused than your Codex Marines, but they're still Space Marines after all. They still have power armour, bolters, dreadnaughts, drop pods, terminators, land raiders, etc. Also, once more it's a double-edged sword; their zeal may result in tactically questionable actions - on occasion - and cause a slightly higher-than-average casualty rate when they close on their enemies, but, that same zeal also drives them to shug off that extra wound, to swing slightly harder and faster, to make sure they absolutely take their quota of blood before they relent or allow themselves death. To say that their casualites "must be horrendous" is perhaps a little hyperbolic.

Completley agree with that last paragraph

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys.

It's not at all silly, it is a perfectly valid point to make. The thread simply asks "who is the most powerful SM Chapter?". That's it. It doesn't specify "+ their influence and any attainable resources". Therefore a simple Chapter-vs-Chapter comparison on a hypothetical basis is a perfectly viable way to attempt to answer TC's question. Thus, if - on a hypothetical basis - both the BTs and the Ultras found themselves in a void, with their whole Chapters pitted each side of a planetoid, I'm inclined to agree that the Ultras are outgunned both in space and on land. On the other hand, numbers don't win the day, but they certainly help and I think that the BTs would win. It may break their power as a Chapter to do so, but I think they'd do it.

The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines

Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware, the BTs Crusader Squads can carry only as many Neophytes as Initiates, but they can also carry less (I think anywhere between 7 and 3 on the tabletop - and a 3 Neophyte to 12 Initiate Crusade Squad is a rather substantial threat to an Ultra's 10-man TS). Therefore their numbers may be as much as 50% Neophytes, but is also may be little as 25%. Additionally, the nature of the Neophytes is that they follow their Initiate into battle, fighting alongside them in the thick of it. This is their training, they don't get to "ease into it" via scouting missions. This means they must quickly learn to fight as furiously and as successfully as their power armoured superiors if they wish to prove themselves, for this reason I'd say BT Neophytes are vastly different from a Codex Scout Marine, both in their attitude/approach to combat and in their overall combat capability.

If its Numbers in a single chapter then its not Ultramarines or other chapters due to the first founding every chapter was limited to a small amount of SM (small meaning Something like 1,000 per company, 100,000 per chapter i cant remember exactly) due to the heresy and robbert gulliman.

Only ones not restricted were Black templar, Space wolves and Dark Angels...

so if were talking size one of the three above.

If where talking training GK's. trained to kill demons and fight alone for extendend peroids of time. (BT can't compare here due to "on the Job" training).

If were talking renown Ultramarines. (due to there stories and merch..

Anfauglir wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys.

It's not at all silly, it is a perfectly valid point to make. The thread simply asks "who is the most powerful SM Chapter?". That's it. It doesn't specify "+ their influence and any attainable resources".

Stop here. You've just left the realm of this question. What is the most powerful Space Marine Chapter. That's it. Everything you write past here is inventing stipulations and inventing your own question, not answering the question at hand.

The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines

Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware, the BTs Crusader Squads can carry only as many Neophytes as Initiates, but they can also carry less (I think anywhere between 7 and 3 on the tabletop - and a 3 Neophyte to 12 Initiate Crusade Squad is a rather substantial threat to an Ultra's 10-man TS). Therefore their numbers may be as much as 50% Neophytes, but is also may be little as 25%.

Stop here. The average Space Marine Chapter is approximately 10% recruits. Why do I need a source if your numbers add up to 25-50%. Anywhere in that range, I am still correct. The question is how many Neophytes exist in the actual "fluff" Black Templars, not what the ideal metagame composition is.

Additionally, the nature of the Neophytes is that they follow their Initiate into battle, fighting alongside them in the thick of it. This is their training, they don't get to "ease into it" via scouting missions. This means they must quickly learn to fight as furiously and as successfully as their power armoured superiors if they wish to prove themselves, for this reason I'd say BT Neophytes are vastly different from a Codex Scout Marine, both in their attitude/approach to combat and in their overall combat capability.

Agreed. Hence why they fight like Doritos. Neophytes wearing significantly lighter armor still engaging in the same kind of high risk confrontations will inevitably result in heavier than normal casualties. Also, there are a lot of skills that the Scouts learn while they are "easing into it" that a BT Neophyte has to learn on the fly... or die. That doesn't automatically equate to a better overall standard of training, simply a lower margin of failure. And, at the same time, because they lack the utility of Scouts (or Devastators or long range Artillery) the Black Templars assault lacks a significant amount of supporting fires, meaning in general their casualties will probably be higher, both among Neophytes, and Initiates. Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career. I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly. Their only entry point into this discussion is their numbers.

So yes, their horde tactics and sheer weight of numbers will probably give them the advantage over most other Chapters, ceteris paribus. However, all things are not the same, so we have to examine every factor, not just a limited range of them that favor a specific faction. The question is what is the "Most powerful Space Marine chapter". Not 'what chapter would win in a Marines only face off?' Maybe there's another Chapter out there with resources on par or greater than the Ultramarines. Certainly the Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter with a multi-world domain. But they haven't been mentioned by GW yet.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Stop here. You've just left the realm of this question. What is the most powerful Space Marine Chapter. That's it. Everything you write past here is inventing stipulations and inventing your own question, not answering the question at hand.

Um, stop here? There aren't any rules or boundaries set forth by the question. As I've said multiple times, it's quite general and quite open. You don't decide what constitutes as being within this "realm", as it's something you've created and are trying to force it onto the question's paramaters. Your previous case citing the IN and IG elements that get automatically appended (according to you) to the Ultra's standing in power, are just as much "invented stipulations" (in fact more so, seeing as they extend beyond the Chapter itself) in regards to answering the question at hand.

Stop here. The average Space Marine Chapter is approximately 10% recruits. Why do I need a source if your numbers add up to 25-50%. Anywhere in that range, I am still correct. The question is how many Neophytes exist in the actual "fluff" Black Templars, not what the ideal metagame composition is.

Yes, so where's your citation for the fluff Neophyte number? The reason you need a source is because you are making a claim that the BTs have "far greater numbers" of scout class Marines than Codex Chapters, which may be entirely false. My numbers are examples, more akin to ball-park figures. In reality it's likely to be 25% or less. Neophytes will not be Neophytes for very long: they either die in battle or prove themselves worthy of power armour. Point is, any increased margin of scout class Marines over Codex Chapters will be outweighed by the increased margin of Initiates over Tactical Marines.

Also, there are a lot of skills that the Scouts learn while they are "easing into it" that a BT Neophyte has to learn on the fly... or die. That doesn't automatically equate to a better overall standard of training, simply a lower margin of failure.

Agreed. However, the BTs aren't interested much in recon ops. They're more of a "just point me at the enemy so I can start smashing things" kind of force. The Neophyte is honed for closing on and killing his enemy and has little want or need for scout training. Again it comes back to the point I raised about specialising: the BTs sacrifice an "all-rounder" type force for a superior CC/assault one.

Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career.

Citation?

However, all things are not the same, so we have to examine every factor, not just a limited range of them that favor a specific faction.

What, you mean like the following:

Their only entry point into this discussion is their numbers.

Besides, this is exactly what I'm attempting to do, if you read through the topic and all of my posts in it. Despite my professed bias in my first response, I've actually retained a semblance of objectivity, and even refrained from condescending, patronising remarks like the following:

I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Spoiler:

Anfauglir wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys.

It's not at all silly, it is a perfectly valid point to make. The thread simply asks "who is the most powerful SM Chapter?". That's it. It doesn't specify "+ their influence and any attainable resources".

Stop here. You've just left the realm of this question. What is the most powerful Space Marine Chapter. That's it. Everything you write past here is inventing stipulations and inventing your own question, not answering the question at hand.

The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines

Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware, the BTs Crusader Squads can carry only as many Neophytes as Initiates, but they can also carry less (I think anywhere between 7 and 3 on the tabletop - and a 3 Neophyte to 12 Initiate Crusade Squad is a rather substantial threat to an Ultra's 10-man TS). Therefore their numbers may be as much as 50% Neophytes, but is also may be little as 25%.

Stop here. The average Space Marine Chapter is approximately 10% recruits. Why do I need a source if your numbers add up to 25-50%. Anywhere in that range, I am still correct. The question is how many Neophytes exist in the actual "fluff" Black Templars, not what the ideal metagame composition is.

Additionally, the nature of the Neophytes is that they follow their Initiate into battle, fighting alongside them in the thick of it. This is their training, they don't get to "ease into it" via scouting missions. This means they must quickly learn to fight as furiously and as successfully as their power armoured superiors if they wish to prove themselves, for this reason I'd say BT Neophytes are vastly different from a Codex Scout Marine, both in their attitude/approach to combat and in their overall combat capability.

Agreed. Hence why they fight like Doritos. Neophytes wearing significantly lighter armor still engaging in the same kind of high risk confrontations will inevitably result in heavier than normal casualties. Also, there are a lot of skills that the Scouts learn while they are "easing into it" that a BT Neophyte has to learn on the fly... or die. That doesn't automatically equate to a better overall standard of training, simply a lower margin of failure. And, at the same time, because they lack the utility of Scouts (or Devastators or long range Artillery) the Black Templars assault lacks a significant amount of supporting fires, meaning in general their casualties will probably be higher, both among Neophytes, and Initiates. Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career. I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly. Their only entry point into this discussion is their numbers.

So yes, their horde tactics and sheer weight of numbers will probably give them the advantage over most other Chapters, ceteris paribus. However, all things are not the same, so we have to examine every factor, not just a limited range of them that favor a specific faction. The question is what is the "Most powerful Space Marine chapter". Not 'what chapter would win in a Marines only face off?' Maybe there's another Chapter out there with resources on par or greater than the Ultramarines. Certainly the Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter with a multi-world domain. But they haven't been mentioned by GW yet.

I agree completely.

Neophytes will not be Neophytes for very long: they either die in battle or prove themselves worthy of power armour.

Now the Black Templars have discovered a way to speed up the implant maturation process too? Wow. I guess I underestimated them.

Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career.

Citation?

Do they have Devastator Squads? Or Scouts? Nope? Guess they don't go through those stages of the training all Codex adherent Chapter Marines do. /shrug/ I'm not making stuff up here to make anyone angry. Just presenting the facts as they are.

Besides, this is exactly what I'm attempting to do, if you read through the topic and all of my posts in it. Despite my professed bias in my first response, I've actually retained a semblance of objectivity, and even refrained from condescending, patronising remarks like the following:

I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly.

Patronizing? Sure. If any actual Black Templars are offended, I guess they can report me, lol. Or assault my house and kill me. Otherwise, we're talking about little toy soldiers, not real people.

The bottom line is, we can tweak this discussion in anyway we like. But suggesting that the Black Templars are more powerful than the Ultramarines just because they have more Space Marines while ignoring the fact that the Ultramarines have more of everything else is rather silly. Again, how many Hive Fleets have the Black Templars stopped again? The power base of the Ultramarines is staggeringly larger than the Black Templars, and more cohesive. I understand that a lot of people dislike the Ultramarines for a variety of absurd and poorly supported reasons. But hating them doesn't change the facts. Really, it's important to understand that your favorite color of toy soldiers doesn't have to be the best for you to enjoy them and their fluff. Heck, look at all the Crimson Fists players (they blew themselves up, lol) Lamenters, and Word Bearers players.

Veteran Sergeant, just because we're talking about little toy soldiers, doesn't mean you have to be patronising to others putting forward their views on the topic at hand; some might consider it rude and take offense, not because you're belittling their toy soldiers, but because your belittling them. As for your argument, to say Ultras have better and more varied training is true, they have devastators and scouts, but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style (which admittedly, may result in higher casualties). But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes. Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space. If they wanted to, they could beseige the Ultras with such an experienced, well armed and well commanded fleet (see their performance on Armageddon). Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines? The BT don't need to almost be destroyed to prove themselves, they already do in their crusades.

I think it depends entirely on what circumstances the battle happens in and what the location is. Lots of chapters could
claim victory over others in the right circumstances. In general I think I would have to go with the Ultramarines purely due to their command over the large numbers of Ultramar guard forces and fleets (and orbital star fortresses and defence lasers and whatever else).
I can't see the Black Templars winning if they attacked Ultramar. A battle outwith Ultramar would a closer thing, but without knowing what exact fleet dispositions they both have...*shrugs* In a lighting battle of attacking strategic assets, then BT all the way. In a protracted war... Ultramarines.

However, as an example in circumstances take the Iron Hands(despite the terrible lack of background they are given on resource/fleet disposition) , I doubt that any chapter in existance could defeat them on their homeworld of Medusa.

During the 13th Black Crusade, 10,000 traitor guardsman tanks attacked them and got annihilated. They have 10 Ordinatus-level mobile fortress, each with "whole formations" of predator Annihilator tanks inside (amongst other things). Who knows what defences and fleet they have against space vessells but with their close ties to Adeptus Mechanicus and love of tech I think we can assume they woud be formidable indeed.

Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.
Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)
Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do, which means that they have spent way more hours fighting in close combat, and to say that BT neophytes dont learn long range is wrong as well because, if that Crusader squad is a squad with a heavy weapon then the neophytes learn that style as well as when that squad charges. OH and lets not forget that Fluff even states that BT spend ALL their time training or praying or fighting so... pretty sure that means not lullying around on ultramar playing friends with IG.
Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.
Fifth
Am i saying that BT are stronger then Ultra ,no i am simply stating that the BT have assets as well and how they could exploit them, BC IMHO i think it would probally be the Imperial Fists that would be the strongest chapter simply based that they are on Terra and Good Luck to any Chapter that tries to get past those defences and still have a possibility of fighting a war. I also stated in an earlier post that you cant forget about DA no one but a DA or a fallen has seen the Likes of their Hidden fortress blob of a planet in what 10k years and if they have they havent lived to tell the tale. So i am not putting my money on any specific chapter because say two chapters (lets just say BT and Ultra) were to try to go to war then how many other Chapters do you think would show up and find out which one they thought was turning to chaos then they would all turn on the "Heretical chapter" and demolish it wth a hundred chapters.

Greyish wrote:

Draigo wrote:Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.

Well their minimal fleet activity helps to keep their presence to a low - in and out before anyone notices, etc. But I'm not sure where you get the notion of struggling to supplant other chapters from. They've always been willing and able to deploy enough troops to do that task when required. Considering the state they left the Flame Falcons and the Relictors in, they're very good at doing so too.

Didnt 1 brotherhood of GK destroy the flame falcons inside their own fortress monastery?

Banzaimash wrote:but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style

Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.

But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes.

That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.

Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space.

I guess you haven't read anything that's been said about just how absurdly immense the fleet of the Ultramar Navy is. The Black Templars will have no such dominance and would be wholly unable to siege any of Ultramars planets. At least for very long.

Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines?

Given a 10-1 ratio, the Ultramarines need 50,000 PDF troopers to counter the Black Templars numerical advantage. Given the fact that the actual differential is probably more like 100-1 or more, yes, they match up, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.

I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.

Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)

So the Black Templars had the largest fleet present at Armageddon. Check.

Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do,

Unsupportable statement. Their standard of training is actually much lower. Merely surviving isn't the way to determine the quality of a recruit. Sure, the Marines who survive to become Initiates are probably Marines of a reasonable quality, but given that anybody can be killed by the "bullet with your name on it", a pool of recruits that suffers an extremely high casualty rate won't produce the best possible recruits, only the luckiest. Look at the incident that happend in the movie/book Black Hawk Down. The Delta Force operators present were amongst the best warrior on the planet, and yet five of them were killed by wacko militiamen high on khat, mostly shooting from the hip.

Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.

Now we're just getting silly. Sure, the Black Templars could "glass" Maccragge and ship truckoads of new Black Templars, but then they would have revealed their flagrant violation of Imperial Law and would be traitors, not unlike the Astral Claws. The only reason the Black Templars get away with their swollen ranks is that they are so widespread. Let's try and keep this discussion as theoretical. The second you try to start constructing combat models for it, we have to introduce a huge number of external variables.

Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.
Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)
Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do, which means that they have spent way more hours fighting in close combat, and to say that BT neophytes dont learn long range is wrong as well because, if that Crusader squad is a squad with a heavy weapon then the neophytes learn that style as well as when that squad charges. OH and lets not forget that Fluff even states that BT spend ALL their time training or praying or fighting so... pretty sure that means not lullying around on ultramar playing friends with IG.
Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.
Fifth
Am i saying that BT are stronger then Ultra ,no i am simply stating that the BT have assets as well and how they could exploit them, BC IMHO i think it would probally be the Imperial Fists that would be the strongest chapter simply based that they are on Terra and Good Luck to any Chapter that tries to get past those defences and still have a possibility of fighting a war. I also stated in an earlier post that you cant forget about DA no one but a DA or a fallen has seen the Likes of their Hidden fortress blob of a planet in what 10k years and if they have they havent lived to tell the tale. So i am not putting my money on any specific chapter because say two chapters (lets just say BT and Ultra) were to try to go to war then how many other Chapters do you think would show up and find out which one they thought was turning to chaos then they would all turn on the "Heretical chapter" and demolish it wth a hundred chapters.

Brother it's not that Black Templars are not powerful... they can beat any Chapter in 1 on 1 combat. But Ultramarines can call to their aid all Chapters that descended from them, of course not everyone will answer that call but in the end they will overwhelm even the BT. In sphere of influence, politics and diplomacy Ultramarines are also better - the only thing Templars are better then Ultramarines are fast attacks and close combat. And the fact that they don't use Codex Astartes granted them some better results then Chapters who follow it to the bone. But overall Ultramarines beat Templars anyday, just using sheer numbers of their descendant Chapters.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Now the Black Templars have discovered a way to speed up the implant maturation process too? Wow. I guess I underestimated them.

Doubt it. Unless you can provide any, I don't know of any GW material that details the specifics of how the BTs handle the implant and maturation process. However, because of the fact that all BTs become Initiates (read: Space Marines) via an on-battlefield, trial-by-fire mentoring system, it stands to reason that they do most - if not all - of the preliminary preparations on their recruitement monasteries and/or service on their starships. When a Castellan/Marshal and/or MoS/Reclusiarch swings by to pick up some men, fresh-fashed humans yet to begin their "marine-ification" aren't going to be any good, they'll need supermen who are a least close to being useful, as in, nearly ready for PA.

Do they have Devastator Squads? Or Scouts? Nope? Guess they don't go through those stages of the training all Codex adherent Chapter Marines do. /shrug/ I'm not making stuff up here to make anyone angry. Just presenting the facts as they are.

Then perhaps you need to show me where it says that the BTs don't have access to heavy weapons, tanks, orbital bombardment capability, dreadnaughts or any other unit or piece of equipment that the Codex Chapters have. Until then, your "facts" stand about as straight as a greenskin.

But suggesting that the Black Templars are more powerful than the Ultramarines just because they have more Space Marines while ignoring the fact that the Ultramarines have more of everything else is rather silly.

Which is why, if you read carefully, I've supported those posters who have said that the Ultras hold a pretty strong claim to "most powerful Chapter".

I understand that a lot of people dislike the Ultramarines for a variety of absurd and poorly supported reasons. But hating them doesn't change the facts. Really, it's important to understand that your favorite color of toy soldiers doesn't have to be the best for you to enjoy them and their fluff. Heck, look at all the Crimson Fists players (they blew themselves up, lol) Lamenters, and Word Bearers players.

Absolutely agree. I've never much understood the dislike for the boys in blue myself. Which is why (again if you've read carefully) I neither hate the Ultras or have allowed any such bias change "the facts".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.

Once more, they are perfectly capable of providing heavy weapons and long range support. Any BT commander not covering his line of charging LRCs is not a very good tactician, seeing as their forte is in close combat.

That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.

Not really that unsupported though, is it. Their fluff states that the BTs have waged a Crusade against the enemies of the Emperor since the end of the HH when they were founded. They hold particular hatred for the heretic, the witch and the alien. Their fleets have splintered and dispersed across the galaxy, constantly driving forth seeking out such foes. The Ultras are more concerned with keeping their mini-Empire secure, localised on the Eastern Fringe. They are also known for being quite a Tyranid-focused Chapter because of their location (i.e. they're pretty fixed in their position and in their role). All this information is pretty common knowledge. Therefore to say that the BTs do more fighting and against a wider variety of foes is pretty substantiated.

I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.

Sure, if by "facts" you mean unsupported declaratives and subjective conjecture.

Their standard of training is actually much lower.

^ See. I'm gonna need a citation for this (still).