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curran12 wrote:
Dwarves, okay, so you've shot a few times and now have a 150 point warmachine locked up and are diverting a character to deal with the threat? Seems like a win to me. Care to show me where it isn't?

No, that's a 50 point single model that will try to charge you before you charge the warmachines. if you hit the warmachines, so what? They already shot twice with their lazer-guided assistnace and thats 150 points to 100 points. A pretty good deal for dwarfs.

curran12 wrote:
Empire is the same, if better situation that Dwarves.

Because the new empire sucks, but I think you already understand my point on that.

curran12 wrote:
And if a Skaven player is throwing an HPA at your fast cav that's pretty awesome since it is chasing after a distraction unit.

A HPA that grabs a free 100 points on its way to rip open your units' faces and probably at the same time saves the life of two or more weapon teams? Fair deal.

When it comes down to it, pistoliers could hunt warmachines. But most other armies have similar units that do the same for <=60 points.

curran12 wrote:

zeekill wrote:

Well...

Hellcannon Immune to Pistoliers
Dwarf artillery ~150 points in epic stalemate with 100 point pistoliers after already shooting 1-2 times, plus dwarfs often take single characters (like a single slayer) to protect their warmachines
Empire v Empire, no comment on mirror matches
Skaven, fair enough, but getting around the hordes upon hordes may take several turns, plus the HPA will easily pick off pistoliers if they come anywhere close.

Hellcannon I can't argue, but the Hellcannon is a lot more than a standard war machine since it CAN hold its own in melee.

Dwarves, okay, so you've shot a few times and now have a 150 point warmachine locked up and are diverting a character to deal with the threat? Seems like a win to me. Care to show me where it isn't?

Empire is the same, if better situation that Dwarves.

Skaven, you don't know how quick fast cav can motor around the board. 16" moves with free reforms means there's very, very few places you CAN'T get to in a hurry. And if a Skaven player is throwing an HPA at your fast cav that's pretty awesome since it is chasing after a distraction unit.

Weird how this goes from pistoliers are useless because they don't make their ponts back to they are useless because they can't beat stuff that is twice their points.

Dwarf shooting ~2 times means about 50-200 points of stuff killed. Then they sit in stalemate with a 100 point unit of pistoliers. Seems like a good deal to me.

If the enemy army does not have artillery, then the pistoliers either die to normal shooting or magic, giving away 100 points, or they struggle to make back their points.

Someone else mentioned marchblocking sorry but I forget who, but in the age of BSB rerolls, rarely will a Ld test for marchblocking be failed.

OP, you know that many of the things you use as evidence as to why this particular 8th edition unit is crap or why that particular 8th edition thing is useless happen to mostly be things made for 7th (or earlier) edition and as a consequence are highly likely to be removed completely, heavily nerfed or altered in such ways as to make your arguments now baseless. Why complain about how cheap the WoC Marauders are or how so much better Dwarven anti magic is, when it is almost garunteed that these things will not be the same when the army gets it's 8th edition update. Think about it, some armies that are still using 7th (or earlier) edition books have benefitted immensly from significant parts of 8th edition rules (like the removal of force organisation chart, focus being on blocks of troops not to mention the spells).


Most of the 8th edition complaints remind me of all the times I heard "But if my characters suck.....what will I kill my opponents entire army with?" cries that happened to be commonplace in my area when 5th edition was phased out for 6th edition fantasy.


Remember why complain about rough matchups that will be short term problems, when there are other matchups that aren't quite as bad but that you'll have to deal with for years longer.

NoTP wrote:OP, you know that many of the things you use as evidence as to why this particular 8th edition unit is crap or why that particular 8th edition thing is useless happen to mostly be things made for 7th (or earlier) edition and as a consequence are highly likely to be removed completely, heavily nerfed or altered in such ways as to make your arguments now baseless. Why complain about how cheap the WoC Marauders are or how so much better Dwarven anti magic is, when it is almost garunteed that these things will not be the same when the army gets it's 8th edition update.

In, say, an online game I would not care, and would not be arguing this. Because online games update everything every 2-4 weeks.

GW however, updates ONE book every FEW months. It will be forever before some of the most OP stuff is fixed, so I'm going to compare stuff to it.

If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.

zeekill wrote:If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.

If they cared and wanted to not make money and rush out products that'll be subpar, they'd do that.

Look, we all just better let zee be in his own world of thinking everything in the game sucks unless they're the best. Clearly nothing in Empire is the best, so clearly Empire sucks and deserves to die and all the army books should be burned.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

zeekill wrote:If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.

If they cared and wanted to not make money and rush out products that'll be subpar, they'd do that.

Look, we all just better let zee be in his own world of thinking everything in the game sucks unless they're the best. Clearly nothing in Empire is the best, so clearly Empire sucks and deserves to die and all the army books should be burned.

Ay, it's moaning about everything that keeps him so cheerful...

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

zeekill wrote:If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.

If they cared and wanted to not make money and rush out products that'll be subpar, they'd do that.

Look, we all just better let zee be in his own world of thinking everything in the game sucks unless they're the best. Clearly nothing in Empire is the best, so clearly Empire sucks and deserves to die and all the army books should be burned.

Its not because its not the best, its because its not even good for the cost.
Halberdiers should be 5.5 points
Militia should be 5 points.
Swordsmen 5.5
Greatswords should be 10.
Xbowmen/Handgunners should be 7.

Mortars should be S3, or down to 75 points with S2
Flaggelants should be 10 at most, maybe even 9

...5.5 pts? Really? That's not even possible...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:...5.5 pts? Really? That's not even possible...

Gnoblars are have a half point in their cost
Skavenslaves unit options are 0.5 per model

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:...5.5 pts? Really? That's not even possible...

Gnoblars are have a half point in their cost
Skavenslaves unit options are 0.5 per model

Really? It actually says "this model is 0.5 pts"?
This I have to see.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:...5.5 pts? Really? That's not even possible...

Gnoblars are have a half point in their cost
Skavenslaves unit options are 0.5 per model

Really? It actually says "this model is 0.5 pts"?
This I have to see.

No, its not 0.5 points. I just can't display the exact cost.

But the profile says:

X 1/2 points

the skavenslaves also say Shields...... 1/2

And as zeekill disappears up their own fundament the rest of the world is just happy to play games of Warhammer with the new book.

marielle wrote:And as zeekill disappears up their own fundament the rest of the world is just happy to play games of Warhammer with the new book.

Go ahead. Play with your bad book, lose with your bad book. My initial point was that it is a bad Armybook and that's the end of that.

I can put money on there not being many Empire GT winners anytime soon

marielle wrote:And as zeekill disappears up their own fundament the rest of the world is just happy to play games of Warhammer with the new book.

I know this is a warhammer forum where most people love GW, yet that doesn't mean " everyone get to break #1 forum rule because OP doesnt like something GW created "
there are so many posts in this thread alone that would warrant temporary ban if they were reported.

LunaHound wrote:
I know this is a warhammer forum where most people love GW, yet that doesn't mean " everyone get to break #1 forum rule because OP doesnt like something GW created "
there are so many posts in this thread alone that would warrant temporary ban if they were reported.

Honestly I have to agree here. I make a thread just to point out that the new book sucks and everyone starts cussing and calling me names.

zeekill wrote:Honestly I have to agree here. I make a thread just to point out that the new book sucks and everyone starts cussing and calling me names.

The new book only sucks if you plan on using what you already owned.
Its not just for Empire, its this way for every.single.GW release.

zeekill wrote:

marielle wrote:And as zeekill disappears up their own fundament the rest of the world is just happy to play games of Warhammer with the new book.

Go ahead. Play with your bad book, lose with your bad book. My initial point was that it is a bad Armybook and that's the end of that.

I can put money on there not being many Empire GT winners anytime soon

The point you are missing is twofold.

Firstly this is mid cycle in the release of 8th ed books, so in order to judge if you are correct we will have another 18 months or two years to see if you are correct.

And secondly the key to 8th ed books is the hard choices that players have to make in the special choices. The fact is that the books are designed in order that players can't have everything.

As for Empire GT winners, I don't see the old book winning to many tournaments as it is.

Let us not forget that when the ogre book was released last September a lot of competative players dismissed that book as being not much better than the old book, and yet 8 months later there are plenty of people who claim the book is overpowered. Yet all that really changed - leaving aside the ironblaster and the mournfang cavalry - was that the pointless limitations were lifted and Ogre players were allowed a level 4 in games of less than 3000 points.

You are quite happy to throw random units around to wander off topic and prove your point by smoke and mirrors, but I look at the book and see demigriffons that are the equal of mournfangs - ok they lack impact hits - I see the luminark of hysh as a cheap ironblaster, wizards with access to a wide range of magic etc. You can't get around the morale issues of the army, but the new book does at least allow chharacers to mitigate them.

The point people are trying to get you to understand is that until you have experimented with the possibilities on offer in the new book, it simply is not possible to make the blanket sweeping statements that you are prone to.

Less than 48 hours after release and so much argument already. Fantasy cannot be played out via math hammer, the games are way to complex and way to unpredictable to say a army book will or will not win games. I played my first game of Brettonia and I loved it, and It's pretty competitive in my opinion (but ask the internet and they will boo it away). No book in fantasy is under powered, if you develop tactics and combos, any army is good. The problem with fantasy though is the over powered books, and GW has fixed the armies that are broken first. Empire had the ability to shut down magic phases with their number of dispel dice, had a tank that was un-killable to low strength armies, had the best artillery, and had cheap troops that had detachments of hand guns. Dwarfs are next because of their outdated anti-magic, and I'm hoping that Demons get the reboot (I swear every unit is 25% to cheap) before books like Brettonia or WE.

Please play with the book before going on the internet and trash talking a book, to many people come onto these forums and listen to misinformed people who think they know how to calculate statistics. It hurts the community when people only play the "good" army books that the internet told them.

marielle wrote:
demigriffons that are the equal of mournfangs - ok they lack impact hits

They lack D3 impact hits
They lack T4
They lack 1 attack on the mounts
They lack 2 attacks on the riders
They lack the Dragonhide banner
They lack the cheapest redirectors in the game (sabretusks) as positional support

They gain WS 4, AP, and +1 AS.

marielle wrote:I see the luminark of hysh as a cheap ironblaster,

That requires magic to go off, can easily be dispelled, has a worse profile than a cannon in every way, and...
No T6
No 4+ Save
No Rhinox or Ogre to give it good combat ability, instead we get 4 WS3 S3 attacks

marielle wrote:wizards with access to a wide range of magic etc.

Fine, but it all condenses to the same 2-4 best lores that everyone takes on their Lvl 4 (unless they have access to a specific book lore). Shadow, Life, Light, Death




Automatically Appended Next Post:

marielle wrote:
Firstly this is mid cycle in the release of 8th ed books, so in order to judge if you are correct we will have another 18 months or two years to see if you are correct.

Well as of now this book is worse then all the rest with the exception of maybe TK.

zeekill wrote:

They lack D3 impact hits
They lack T4
They lack 1 attack on the mounts
They lack 2 attacks on the riders
They lack the Dragonhide banner
They lack the cheapest redirectors in the game (sabretusks) as positional support

They gain WS 4, AP, and +1 AS.

I would say the Steel Standard has excellent value. And the knights have WS 4 and lances, and better Ld (can be a problem if the cav race away from the General and BSB) and the mounts have excellent Initiative (for the purple suns and pits of shades which absolutely destroy Monstrous Cav.) The Demigryphs are also about 20% cheaper.

"Nothing is underpowered" - So naive. You clearly don't play in a competitive environment. If everyone builds optimized lists, its very difficult to find what is good or bad. In a competitive environment, just TRY to win on a regular basis with Wood Elves or Brettonia.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zoned wrote:
I would say the Steel Standard has excellent value. And the knights have WS 4 and lances, and better Ld (can be a problem if the cav race away from the General and BSB) and the mounts have excellent Initiative (for the purple suns and pits of shades which absolutely destroy Monstrous Cav.) The Demigryphs are also about 20% cheaper.

How do you figure 20%?

Plus have you seen the dragonhide banner? Its infinitely better than the Steel Standard. Mournfangs already have the M8 that the Steel Standard gives.

Also Lances only affect the first round, and only affect 4 attacks. I would rather have 12 S4 attacks in every round than 4 S6 in the first round. Plus D3 Impact hits is easily twice as good as lances. Plus the mounts get an extra S5 attack in every round.

WS4? So what? Still hitting most things on 4+

So better Ld is the only benefit they get.

How about initiative?

Purple Sun and Pit of Shades are the bane of most Monstrous cav.

Dragon hide banner is good (though it is more expensive.) You claim was "they lack the Dragonhide banner" which I took as they "they lack a good banner," to which I disagree.

Last time I checked, Mournfang with heavy armour and iron fists were about 70pts. And Demigryphs are under 60pts. 10 out of 60 is already 16%, if you used the actual numbers you get 20.6%.

So one could say that, sure, equal number of Mournfang have more punch than Demipryphs, except they should, since they cost more. Point for point and the results are much closer. With their WS of 3, Mournfang do surprisingly bad after the first round.

WS 4 also means you take less hits. And there are plenty of units that are WS 3.

Youre right about the percentage. My bad.

Also can't argue about initiative-removal spells.

Compared to the Steel Standard, you really only get the reroll 1's for charge distance benefit for its cost. I don't see that as worth it.

Yes they should be getting more hitting power, but the question is how much:
Demigryphs x4 - charging
4x S6
12x S5 AP
4x S5 autohits

Mournfangs x4 - charging
4D3 S5 Autohits - Reroll 1's to wound
12x S4 - Reroll 1's to hit and wound
16x S5 - Reroll 1's to hit and wound
4x S5 Autohits - Reroll 1's to wound

I would dare say that is at least double the damage output.

Well, the unit you describe is at least 340pts.

Whereas 4 Demigryphs with musician (the only command I would actually take) are about 240pts.

Let's compare to a unit of, say Saurus Warriors with shield. It's hard to calculate the re-roll 1 thing so how about I just say all your wounds round up.

4 Mournfang with banner and Dragon Hide:

8 impact hits get 5 (4.4) kills.
12 Ogre attacks get 2 (1.6) kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 4 (3.7) kills.
4 Stomps get 3 (2.2) kills.
7 Str 3 Breath weapon attacks get 2 (1.16) kills
Adds to 16 (13.06) kills

4 Demigryphs

4 Knight attacks get 1.85 kills.
12 Demigryph attacks get 4.4 kills.
4 Stomps get 2.6 kills.

Adds to 8.85 kills.

The demigryphs are 71% the cost of the Mournfang. They deal 55.3% of the damage. So not horribly off.

If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but deal 74.3% of the damage, again not horribly off.

So in terms of punching power, I'd say the Mournfang are definitely ahead, but when you consider the 1+ armour, Initiative, and Leadership, I'd say the Demigryphs have other redeeming factors.

After the charge (lack of impact hits and re-roll 1s) I'm sure the kills even out quite heavily (not unreasonable since most units will be steadfast after either charge.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for fun, here's the mathhammer vs something crappy like Skaven clanrats.

4 Mournfang with banner and Dragon Hide:

8 impact hits get 7 (6.6) kills.
12 Ogre attacks get 3 (2.7) kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 6 (5.5) kills.
4 Stomps get 4 (3.3) kills.
7 Str 3 Breath attacks get 3 (2.3) kills

Adds to 23 (20.4) kills

4 Demigryphs

4 Knight attacks get 1.85 kills.
12 Demigryph attacks get 5.5 kills.
4 Stomps get 3.3 kills.

Adds to 10.65 kills.

The demigryphs are 71% the cost of the Mournfang. They deal less than half the damage.

If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but deal 58.8% of the damage.

Looks pretty bad for the Demigryphs. Again, considering their cost compared to the Mournfang, it's not horrible.

After the charge, the odds look like this (assume no damage from the clanrats to either unit):

12 Ogre attacks get 2.7 kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 5.5 kills.
4 Stomps get 3.3 kills.

Adds to 11.5 kills

4 Demigryphs

4 Knight attacks get 1.23 kills.
12 Demigryph attacks get 5.5 kills.
4 Stomps get 3.3 kills.

Adds to 10.03 kills.

The demigryphs are 71% the cost of the Mournfang. They deal 87.2 the damage (better point for point!)

If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but still deal 87.2% of the damage. Again, better point for point!

Edited a few times as I forgot that the Dragonhide banner is also a Breath Weapon and that the re-roll 1s are only on the charge.

Zoned wrote:
If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but still deal 87.2% of the damage. Again, better point for point!

So you mean play the unit wrong? Yah I bet if we use a Chosen Star as a redirecting unit with marauder calv flank charges then it would not be effective....

Uh, it's fair to say that many Ogre players will take multiple blocks of Mournfang. They can't all take the Dragonhide banners so it's worth considering a unit without it.

Zoned wrote:
8 impact hits get 5 (4.4) kills.
12 Ogre attacks get 2 (1.6) kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 4 (3.7) kills.
4 Stomps get 3 (2.2) kills.

Actual Values

8 Impact Hits:
8*2/3+(8/6)*2/3 = 6.2 wounds.
6.2*5/6 = 5.2 kills

12 Ogre Attacks:
12/2+(12/6)/2 = 7 Hits
7/2+(7/6)/2 = 4.1 Wounds
4.1*2/3*5/6 = 2.3 Kills

16 Mournfang Attacks:
16/2+(16/6)/2 = 9.3 Hits
9.3*2/3+(9.3/6)*2/3 = 7.23 Wounds
7.23*5/6*5/6 = 5.0 Wounds

4 Stomps
4*2/3+(4/6)*2/3 = 3.1 wounds.
3.1*5/6 = 2.6 kills

So they cause 15.1 wounds

Also, in your percentages did you include the Steel Standard?

Lastly, keep in mind the Dragonhide banner is also a S3 breath weapon, so if needed that can also be used for 2D6 hits with the rerolls to wound.

Never seen more than one unit of MF in a competitive game ever.... Not enough room

zeekill wrote:

So they cause 15.1 wounds

Also, in your percentages did you include the Steel Standard?

Lastly, keep in mind the Dragonhide banner is also a S3 breath weapon, so if needed that can also be used for 2D6 hits with the rerolls to wound.

I'm not sure how to factor in the re-rolling 1s thing so I'll have to take your word on it.

Even with it, the total kills only jumps up by 1 (and if you check my math I did take into account the Str 3 Breath attack.)

No, I didn't include the Steel Standard (as I stated) since it's more important to take it on regular knights (who really need the charge compared to Demigryphs.)

Johnny-Crass wrote:Never seen more than one unit of MF in a competitive game ever.... Not enough room

Are you kidding me?

Assume 2500pts of Ogres.

Bare minimum looks like this:

Rare

2 Ironblasters

Special

3 units of 4 Mournfang with Musicians

3 Sabertusks

Core

625 points

Total = 1835. 500-600pts for Characters puts you to 2398pts-2498pts. Tweak your points here and there and you can probably fit in a Thundertusk for the ASL (maybe drop 1 unit of Mournfang.)