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Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board.

Ok, you stick a captain and a WP in a unit of 50 halberdiers. Thats already 125 points. Your halberdiers now technically cost 8.5 points each. But not only that, any competent player will know to just allocate his attacks on the WP and Captain, killing them as they are still only T4, 2 wound Heroes. Or would you like to spend 50 points per hero to obtain some surviability? Your halberdiers now cost 9.5 points each, and your heroes will most likely still be killed over a few turns.

Plus, as I've said many times before, you are casting buffs with no bonus from wizard level, while your opponent is getting all the bonus he needs. If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail? Or do you recommend taking 2 WP's to guarantee the spell going off?

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...

Oh, so you just cheat and take WP and Captains for free? Good on you. I thought they had a point cost.

Also, while you are completely right about the WMs, also keep in mind that these things are T5 with a 5+ save. Easy prey for any shooting or magic.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Ahh, who am I kidding?!? You'll just reply "pssh, free Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and 5+ ward or Wounds re-rolls are useless and suck and deserve to die a slow death and burn in hell!"

Still not free.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:My bad, don't know what I was thinking trying to actually change an unreasonable person's mind! Over the internet of all things!!

I'm not unreasonable. I'm being realistic. From your post I see you assume things are "free" when they are not, you assume your magic phase will work flawlessly, and you assume that the characters that give the buffs won't die.

If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail?

You try again, you don't get concentration broken from bound spells.

Also, while you are completely right about the WMs, also keep in mind that these things are T5 with a 5+ save. Easy prey for any shooting or magic.

At least they're cheap! Have you tried taking a giant lately?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail?

You try again, you don't get concentration broken from bound spells.

You can't use the same spell again...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

At least they're cheap! Have you tried taking a giant lately?

Arguing something is good because something else is worse is a poor argument.

zeekill wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail?

You try again, you don't get concentration broken from bound spells.

You can't use the same spell again...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

At least they're cheap! Have you tried taking a giant lately?

Arguing something is good because something else is worse is a poor argument.

Remind me to smack a vampire counts player, because that's how he played it against me. Thought it was how it was done since it's different from casting normally.

As for the cheapness, it's a cheap support large type unit rather than a large 200+ beatstick that can't even get into combat, the only big monster units that can feasibly get into combat are those against armies without cannons or shadow spells.

Or if their overpowered, ala HPA or hydra.

Makes me want to use those forgeworld monsters, they do quite well in the balance vs cost department. (Even if they cost quite a bit,

zeekill wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board.

Ok, you stick a captain and a WP in a unit of 50 halberdiers. Thats already 125 points. Your halberdiers now technically cost 8.5 points each. But not only that, any competent player will know to just allocate his attacks on the WP and Captain, killing them as they are still only T4, 2 wound Heroes. Or would you like to spend 50 points per hero to obtain some surviability? Your halberdiers now cost 9.5 points each, and your heroes will most likely still be killed over a few turns.

Plus, as I've said many times before, you are casting buffs with no bonus from wizard level, while your opponent is getting all the bonus he needs. If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail? Or do you recommend taking 2 WP's to guarantee the spell going off?

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...

Oh, so you just cheat and take WP and Captains for free? Good on you. I thought they had a point cost.

Also, while you are completely right about the WMs, also keep in mind that these things are T5 with a 5+ save. Easy prey for any shooting or magic.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Ahh, who am I kidding?!? You'll just reply "pssh, free Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and 5+ ward or Wounds re-rolls are useless and suck and deserve to die a slow death and burn in hell!"

Still not free.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:My bad, don't know what I was thinking trying to actually change an unreasonable person's mind! Over the internet of all things!!

I'm not unreasonable. I'm being realistic. From your post I see you assume things are "free" when they are not, you assume your magic phase will work flawlessly, and you assume that the characters that give the buffs won't die.

People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.

But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place

LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.

But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place

I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?

Read what zeekil wrote in my post...

LunaHound wrote:Read what zeekil wrote in my post...

I did my response applies to him as well.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.

But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place

I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?

Just because its stupid NOT to take one, does not make it free.

I could say there is no reason NOT to take double Hydra in a DE list. To you that means it doesn't cost points?

We are not comparing Empire to other Empire, in which case everything has a WP or Captain. We are comparing Empire to other armies. If you want to argue usefulness when combined with a Captain and WP, please keep in mind you are arguing what is essentially 9.5 point halberdiers (assuming a unit of 50), regardless of whether or not your buffs even activate in the first place.

zeekill wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.

But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place

I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?

Just because its stupid NOT to take one, does not make it free.

I could say there is no reason NOT to take double Hydra in a DE list. To you that means it doesn't cost points?

If Hydras gave a unit a couple of buffs, those buffs are essentially free if you can just plop that Hydra in the unit. Since you'd take the Hydras anyway, the non-required/non-mandatory buffs they give to others would be a bonus.

It'd be like getting a chili dog and plain fries and then putting the chili from the hot dog on the fries. The chili fries are essentially free (despite the cost of the chili dog and plain fries). You paid for the chili dog and plain fries. But you ended up getting chili fries!!!

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

zeekill wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.

But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place

I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?

Just because its stupid NOT to take one, does not make it free.

I could say there is no reason NOT to take double Hydra in a DE list. To you that means it doesn't cost points?

If Hydras gave a unit a couple of buffs, those buffs are essentially free if you can just plop that Hydra in the unit. Since you'd take the Hydras anyway, the non-required/non-mandatory buffs they give to others would be a bonus.


It'd be like getting a chili dog and plain fries and then putting the chili from the hot dog on the fries. The chili fries are essentially free (despite the cost of the chili dog and plain fries). You paid for the chili dog and plain fries. But you ended up getting chili fries!!!

I see your point, but then comes the realization that the buffs are EXACTLY what you are paying for. WP and Captains are both gak in combat for their points, their Ld means nothing as you will most likely be receiving extra Ld from the general anyway. Your comparison works with Hydras because you pay for the Hydra's effectiveness in combat. But with Empire hero choices you are paying the points for the buffs, not the characters themselves.

And again, keep in mind they can be killed with little effort.

zeekill wrote:but then comes the realization that the buffs are EXACTLY what you are paying for. WP and Captains are both gak in combat for their points, their Ld means nothing as you will most likely be receiving extra Ld from the general anyway. Your comparison works with Hydras because you pay for the Hydra's effectiveness in combat. But with Empire hero choices you are paying the points for the buffs, not the characters themselves.

And again, keep in mind they can be killed with little effort.

I 100% agree

Would have thought buffs would be good on an edition of WHFB thats focusing around big-block combat. Those buffs will go a long way and I find alot of the comparisons and downsides you point out are focusing on multiple books at a time rather then realistically.

I can't help but find this topic from someone who was specifically looking for an army with no hard-counter to be taken with a grain of salt, they might not be good against everyone but no one should be. From what I've heard quite a few people seem to enjoy the differences I just don't see what you were really expecting? The same book cheaper points?

And to be perfectly honest, your guys are only human why will heroes be amazing in combat, if anything a human's 'heroes' biggest ability is to rally those behind him and inspire them not personally stick it to the man.

Sasa0mg wrote:Would have thought buffs would be good on an edition of WHFB thats focusing around big-block combat. Those buffs will go a long way and I find alot of the comparisons and downsides you point out are focusing on multiple books at a time rather then realistically.

I can't help but find this topic from someone who was specifically looking for an army with no hard-counter to be taken with a grain of salt, they might not be good against everyone but no one should be. From what I've heard quite a few people seem to enjoy the differences I just don't see what you were really expecting? The same book cheaper points?

And to be perfectly honest, your guys are only human why will heroes be amazing in combat, if anything a human's 'heroes' biggest ability is to rally those behind him and inspire them not personally stick it to the man.

I was expecting a book that would be powerful. This book is a piece of CRUDdace.

Buffs are good for big blocks when those big blocks are good in combat, or have the potential to be good in combat. Our blocks are bad at combat and overpriced. Also, like I said before, said buffs are not guaranteed, you have to get through the opponent's magic defence, AND you have to make sure the WP can ever survive in combat, which is tough for a T4 W2 model.

As for the last comment, no. I was not expecting them to be good at combat, but I was expecting them to at least be resilient, and for their buffs to be reliable. A dead WP or a dead Captain can't inspire anything, and an alive WP has trouble buffing anything.

I was expecting a book that would be powerful.

Were you hoping you'd get Gray Knights in fantasy? Or maybe a daemons of chaos?

Thankfully they're trying to balance things than the usual crud they were throwing out in 7th.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I was expecting a book that would be powerful.

Were you hoping you'd get Gray Knights in fantasy? Or maybe a daemons of chaos?

Thankfully they're trying to balance things than the usual crud they were throwing out in 7th.

I wanted at least as powerful as Orcs or Ogres.

And it is funny that Ogres were bemoaned as weak in their first week or so out as well...

curran12 wrote:And it is funny that Ogres were bemoaned as weak in their first week or so out as well...

I never did that. I predicted them as being either balanced or powerful (never OP, but I don't think of them as OP now). Turns out they were powerful.
Same with O&G
TK I thought of as average at best on Day 1, and look what it is.
VC I think is balanced but situationally powerful, but I dont think enough time has passed to judge the validity of that.

A lot of poor classification of power comes from people that don't know what they are doing. I'm no pro, not even close, but I like to think that I know what I'm doing.

i played my mono tizz daemons list vrs the new empire and got thrashed. empire is totally OP and broken cheese.

(forget the fact im still using my 7thed tizz list)

grumble - piss-moan-cry-grumble.

zeekill wrote:

curran12 wrote:And it is funny that Ogres were bemoaned as weak in their first week or so out as well...

I never did that. I predicted them as being either balanced or powerful (never OP, but I don't think of them as OP now). Turns out they were powerful.
.

He didn't say you did, just people in general. And the implied point is that given time like you're giving the VC book the list may appear not as awful as you think it is now.

And for all the whining about the stank being T6, it was always T6 apart from the 8th ed FAQ which made it T10

zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.

You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.

See a trend there?

jouso wrote:

zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.

You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.

See a trend there?

No?

Johnny-Crass wrote:

jouso wrote:

zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.

You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.

See a trend there?

No?

I have to agree I don't see exactly what you mean, jouso.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

jouso wrote:

zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.

You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.

See a trend there?

No?

What he means is nobody takes the shamans without Big un's and a 5++ instead of 6++ ward save.

At least I havn't seen anyone take extra squads.

Wow you are right, no one takes multiples of a unit they can only take one of! That is deep....

Johnny-Crass wrote:Wow you are right, no one takes multiples of a unit they can only take one of! That is deep....

I think it was more that they always take a character to boost them up with better defences and offensive capability.

Like Warrior Priests beefing up the standard troops in Empire with Hatred and other nice things like that.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Wow you are right, no one takes multiples of a unit they can only take one of! That is deep....

I think his point is that even with the strong troops, they require buffs from characters.
Like what the empire is currently doing.

I don't get it either. Its a bit cryptic :/

NINJAS EVERYWHERE!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:

jouso wrote:

zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.

You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.

See a trend there?

No?

What he means is nobody takes the shamans without Big un's and a 5++ instead of 6++ ward save.

At least I havn't seen anyone take extra squads.

Yes. But unlike the Warrior Priest who is WS4 T4 W2, perhaps a 4+/5++ something like that depending on magic items. The shaman is T5 W3 5++ save and probably has the Fencer's blades so WS10.

Also he is buffing a unit that is good in combat already, making them godly in combat.

A WP struggles to make a unit that sucks viable in combat.

Lastly, the shaman is bought in order to obtain a Lvl 4, the 5++ is just icing on the cake. A WP you pay your points specifically to obtain the buff.

Aren't warrior priests much, much cheaper than a big shaman?

And isn't a Warrior Priest also buffing all the detachments of the mother unit too?