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Also undead smash OnG. Into the dirt

Johnny-Crass wrote:Also undead smash OnG. Into the dirt

Name one thing VC have that can stop the Savage Orc Big Un horde.

Though I agree that it is in no way a curb stomp, I still think Orcs come out on top

Spirit hosts and zombie redirectors. Hold them up all game while you clean their shop. Maybe toss a curse of years on them for good measure. Trick with Savages is NOT to fight them

Johnny-Crass wrote:Spirit hosts and zombie redirectors. Hold them up all game while you clean their shop. Maybe toss a curse of years on them for good measure. Trick with Savages is NOT to fight them

Hmm... well they go through 2 a turn, so it will be pretty difficult to keep them out of combat for 3+ turns.
But its not clear cut either way IMO.

Also against the NG Spam lists... Well lets just say I have not lost to the fanatic minefield since I started playing VC

zeekill wrote:2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.

Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.

That isn't even a valid comparison

Aren't pistoleer the guys with the 3x multiple shots?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.

Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.

That isn't even a valid comparison

Aren't pistoleer the guys with the 3x multiple shots?

They get 2 shots each because of brace of pistols, with a pitiful BS 3, usually after moving, and sometimes at long range.

At short range, thats already hitting on 6+.
Pitiful.

You are thinking of outrders, who cost more and can't move and shoot

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.

Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.

That isn't even a valid comparison

Aren't pistoleer the guys with the 3x multiple shots?

They get 2 shots each because of brace of pistols, with a pitiful BS 3, usually after moving, and sometimes at long range.

At short range, thats already hitting on 6+.
Pitiful.

You are thinking of outrders, who cost more and can't move and shoot

For 100 points, having a fast unit that can move and fire with armor piercing weapons doesn't sound that bad.
Unless you place them in the enemy's front all the time. But then again, why would you do that with a short ranged skirmishing unit?

No, Pistoliers suck.

You will nearly always have to move before shooting, meaning you hit on a 5+ with 5 shots for 100 points.

If you multishot, then you hit on a 6+ with 10 shots.

Pitiful

zeekill wrote:No, Pistoliers suck.

You will nearly always have to move before shooting, meaning you hit on a 5+ with 5 shots for 100 points.

If you multishot, then you hit on a 6+ with 10 shots.

Pitiful

Pistols are quick to fire, so they don't suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting. They'll still get -1 if they're shooting at long range but as they're most likely going to be shooting into a units flank they can get into short range without having to worry about being charged next turn as the unit would have to reform to face them and that means they can't charge, giving you the opportunity to move back round to their flank or to run away. Plus as they're fast cavalry you'll be able to make a vanguard move, then march and then fire. You can be in range of an enemy unit on turn one.

I don't see why you would ever fire single shots. At long range it comes out as:
(5*(2/6)*(1/2))=0.833 wounds against T4
10*(1/6)*(1/2)=0.833 wounds against T4

At short range it's
5*(1/2)*(1/2)=1.25 wounds against T4
10*(1/3)*(1/2)=1.66 wounds against T4

So the average number of wounds is the same at long range but the total potential number of wounds from multiple shots is double that of single shots. At short range the average number of wounds is in favour of multiple shots as well as the total potential wounds.

So multiple shots is pretty much always the best option.

Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

zeekill wrote:Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

Did you account -2 to saves? Against WoC with shields, that would mean that they have to make 6+ saves.
Well, that is assuming that they have heavy armor base. I'm not too sure about their load out.

Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.

zeekill wrote:Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.

The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.

Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

zeekill wrote:Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.

The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.

Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.

Exactly. Having a constant thorn in his side will force your opponent to direct some resources against the pistoleers. Resources that could have been directed against more important targets.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

Did you account -2 to saves? Against WoC with shields, that would mean that they have to make 6+ saves.
Well, that is assuming that they have heavy armor base. I'm not too sure about their load out.

Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.

Warriors of Chaos have Chaos Armour, which is a 4+ save. Most of the time they also have shields so that's a 3+ save total. They get even nastier when you add in Mark of Tzeench which gives them a 5+ ward save on top of that.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

Did you account -2 to saves? Against WoC with shields, that would mean that they have to make 6+ saves.
Well, that is assuming that they have heavy armor base. I'm not too sure about their load out.

Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.

Warriors of Chaos have Chaos Armour, which is a 4+ save. Most of the time they also have shields so that's a 3+ save total. They get even nastier when you add in Mark of Tzeench which gives them a 5+ ward save on top of that.

So...5+ saves against pistols then. Aren't they like 15pts a model though? So 8-10 dead Chaos Warriors is still pretty good for a 100pt unit.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

zeekill wrote:Ahh forgot about Quick to Fire.

Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.

There is no way that is worth 100 points...

Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.

The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.

Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.

Exactly. Having a constant thorn in his side will force your opponent to direct some resources against the pistoleers. Resources that could have been directed against more important targets.

Careful you are getting dangerously close to talking about tactics - or indeed how the game is actually played - it has already been established that the dialectic of the discussion is purely based on theoretical 'damage dealing', with a liberal dose of changing the subject with thin canards when the dialectic is proven incorrect.

Because as we all know, everyone just lines up their armies and runs at each other...

It isn't solely down to points destroyed, you know that right, zee?

It's a real shortsighted way to play the game. If your 100 point unit causes 50 points worth of damage, but diverts cannon shots, spells, and melee units of higher value, that's a net gain. It just can't be mathhammered.

curran12 wrote:It isn't solely down to points destroyed, you know that right, zee?

It's a real shortsighted way to play the game. If your 100 point unit causes 50 points worth of damage, but diverts cannon shots, spells, and melee units of higher value, that's a net gain. It just can't be mathhammered.

Indeed, there is still some value to blocking marches and going after warmachines, yes? The ability to shoot everything along the way seems like a goal that can be accomplished at the same time.

ph34r wrote:Indeed, there is still some value to blocking marches and going after warmachines, yes? The ability to shoot everything along the way seems like a goal that can be accomplished at the same time.

I understand the idea of points-killed vs. points-invested that zee is doing, but it is such an incomplete picture of the whole thing. I get his thinking, I really do, but it just doesn't pan out when you start playing games against human players.

The value of a threat, or more specifically, a PERCEIVED threat, goes well beyond points cost. I play games with my Dark Elves that, by all the mathhammer standards and tournament metagame, shouldn't work (dragon, loads of Dark Riders, one level 2 sorceress for magic, etc) and I get best General with it because I understand the psychology of the game. 5 units of Vanguarding Dark Riders makes shooty/casty armies panic 9 times out of 10. And that 10th time, I can throw them into the teeth of the gunline to tie them up while my other units move up into fighting position.

Only thing I have to say about this thread..

Every unit has a purpose, if you try to use them out of that purpose..then you're doing it wrong.

You need to find the purpose and utilize it. Math hammer is ok but you don't see the full picture. You simply analyze a unit and that's it.

I play Tau in 40k, which for all intents are the worst codex now next to sisters of battle, and I still win. Know why?

Every unit has a purpose.

I'd like to ask one question:

Would you have considered Empire to be overpowered in 7th?

Because if everything was soooooo goooood then surely to expect it to be put down to regular balanced level should have been expected.

If you don't consider 7th empire that then never mind entirely.

And if the minimum unit size for halberds is still 10 then you have a 60 point (Assuming they are 6 points, haven't seen new book yet) re-director. Even better if detachements still allow smaller than min unit size so you could have a 5man unit for 30points and have more units to put the enemy at weird angles.

I'm skeptical. I'm hearing all these bad things about my beloved empire, but on the filpside I get to try new things and get the challenge of finding a new way to make it work well.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.

This is assuming you got to shoot every turn including first turn, and that the unit never took casualties, which they will take from skink shooting and such.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.

The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.

Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.

Or, the Dark Elves can just take one turn of shooting with 6 shades and/or 2 units of Dark Riders, perhaps instead a basic magic missile, and obtain 100 points for free.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So...5+ saves against pistols then. Aren't they like 15pts a model though? So 8-10 dead Chaos Warriors is still pretty good for a 100pt unit.

With shields and MoT they are ~17 depending on the size of your unit, and will get 5+/6++ against your shooting. So yes, in the end against WoC it is worth it, but only if you can actually get to an advantageous angle. WoC armies will usually have a marauder horde on one flank and the table edge on the other, or if not the table edge then 2 warshrines angled outwards specifically to prevent the pistoliers from getting in the flank.
So in the end you will have to spend at least half the game trying to move around to start shooting. Plus you can be whittled down by bloodcurdling roar on a disk, again depending on positioning.

curran12 wrote:It isn't solely down to points destroyed, you know that right, zee?

It's a real shortsighted way to play the game. If your 100 point unit causes 50 points worth of damage, but diverts cannon shots, spells, and melee units of higher value, that's a net gain. It just can't be mathhammered.

Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?

What if you win the game? I think losing 100 points is worth a win.

Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?

That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.

And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.

Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What if you win the game? I think losing 100 points is worth a win.

Well if you win the game, great. But those pistoliers probably were not the cause of your win.

But now looking back, maybe pistoliers are relatively good solely because there is nothing better in this book.

curran12 wrote:

Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?

That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.

And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.

Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.

He can't think of the big picture. He is too butt hurt.

curran12 wrote:

Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?

That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.

And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.

Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.

Well...

Hellcannon Immune to Pistoliers
Dwarf artillery ~150 points in epic stalemate with 100 point pistoliers after already shooting 1-2 times, plus dwarfs often take single characters (like a single slayer) to protect their warmachines
Empire v Empire, no comment on mirror matches
Skaven, fair enough, but getting around the hordes upon hordes may take several turns, plus the HPA will easily pick off pistoliers if they come anywhere close.

zeekill wrote:

Well...

Hellcannon Immune to Pistoliers
Dwarf artillery ~150 points in epic stalemate with 100 point pistoliers after already shooting 1-2 times, plus dwarfs often take single characters (like a single slayer) to protect their warmachines
Empire v Empire, no comment on mirror matches
Skaven, fair enough, but getting around the hordes upon hordes may take several turns, plus the HPA will easily pick off pistoliers if they come anywhere close.

Hellcannon I can't argue, but the Hellcannon is a lot more than a standard war machine since it CAN hold its own in melee.

Dwarves, okay, so you've shot a few times and now have a 150 point warmachine locked up and are diverting a character to deal with the threat? Seems like a win to me. Care to show me where it isn't?

Empire is the same, if better situation that Dwarves.

Skaven, you don't know how quick fast cav can motor around the board. 16" moves with free reforms means there's very, very few places you CAN'T get to in a hurry. And if a Skaven player is throwing an HPA at your fast cav that's pretty awesome since it is chasing after a distraction unit.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

curran12 wrote:

Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?

That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.

And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.

Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.

He can't think of the big picture. He is too butt hurt.

Hahaha made me giggle. New empire are fine, just have to tailor the army lists to suit the new book rather than the old one. Which may be to do with GW wanting us to buy the new mini's but so what? Makes a nice change from buying more bloody halberdiers..