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zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
Black orcs are either taken or the savage orcs, and in some cases it usually depends on if the local meta has a very effective way of kiting out the savage orcs, which can make them worthless.
Black orcs are still a rather effective model within the codex proper though.
zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
I don't see why. Cavalry has sucked, sucks, and will suck in 8th edition.
Black Orcs are ok, but for the points you pay they are very fragile. A 5+ save will be reduced to a 6+ or nothing more than half the time (against anything you would want Black Orcs fighting).
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
Teclis isn't going to cast Dwellers 3-9 times before he's dead. He'll cast it once and it will be a horrendous use to cast a lvl 6 against a lone 50pt char. WH are heroes. They can be solo. Which is a good idea as it forces you to waste an ability on them and they can still LoS if close enough. Teclis hates WH I promise you.
Stanks are...tanks. If you're just using them as cannons they are a waste. So the idea of having this mobile mega tough armored cannon rumbling along with a master engineer jogging behind it shouting out boiler instructions is just too weird. No one's gonna take that job.
As for the orc comparisons, orcs are 8th. People are trying to balance to 7th edition and I know that is easy because there's stuff out there that's OP. But WoC will get a nerf. Trust me, in some way warriors will become crappier. Bloodletters likely as well. But if we always balanced to old armies, nothing would ever be able to be changed. Well, stuff would only be allowed to be buffed and around 10th edition everything would have straight 10 stats. You got to get back to baseline or the D6 isn't going to cut it.
zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
I don't see why.
b/c you're an obvious over-reactor/elitist/drama king?
Just remember not to mistake "not as good in the past" and/or "not the best" for "sucks" and/or "bad".
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They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat.
With the exception of the savage orcs, it'd be because you're comparing to an OVERPOWERED book
It'd be like comparing everything in 40k to gray knights and calling it gak as a result of it not being as good as purifiers or rifledreads.
Considering the OP's sentiment of "I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney. " I think we know his style from here on.
DukeRustfield wrote:Teclis isn't going to cast Dwellers 3-9 times before he's dead. He'll cast it once and it will be a horrendous use to cast a lvl 6 against a lone 50pt char. WH are heroes. They can be solo. Which is a good idea as it forces you to waste an ability on them and they can still LoS if close enough. Teclis hates WH I promise you.
Ohhhh you are running them solo? Ok, pick them off one by one with shooting and Great eagles. That makes that job even easier, and opens up Teclis to cast on other units.
DukeRustfield wrote:Stanks are...tanks. If you're just using them as cannons they are a waste. So the idea of having this mobile mega tough armored cannon rumbling along with a master engineer jogging behind it shouting out boiler instructions is just too weird. No one's gonna take that job.
Again, misunderstanding. I was saying that I wish the reroll artillery dice applied to the roll for generating steam points. NEVER fire the cannon unless necessary, it will only break itself.
DukeRustfield wrote:As for the orc comparisons, orcs are 8th. People are trying to balance to 7th edition and I know that is easy because there's stuff out there that's OP. But WoC will get a nerf. Trust me, in some way warriors will become crappier. Bloodletters likely as well. But if we always balanced to old armies, nothing would ever be able to be changed. Well, stuff would only be allowed to be buffed and around 10th edition everything would have straight 10 stats. You got to get back to baseline or the D6 isn't going to cut it.
But they aren't. They are still there, and they are still just as powerful. Waiting for them to go away does not solve your problem.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Just remember not to mistake "not as good in the past" and/or "not the best" for "sucks" and/or "bad".
If its not good, then its average. If its not average, then its bad. Empire troops, say halberdiers, have a 4 point stat line, with a 1 point weapon. Light armor on its own is worthless, or nearly worthless. They should be 5 points. Are they 5? nope.
IMO, these should be the points costs:
Halberdiers: 5
Spearmen: 4.5
Militia: 5
Swordsmen: 5.5 or 6
Greatswords: 10
Crossbowmen and Handgunners: 7
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat.
With the exception of the savage orcs, it'd be because you're comparing to an OVERPOWERED book
It'd be like comparing everything in 40k to gray knights and calling it gak as a result of it not being as good as purifiers or rifledreads.
Considering the OP's sentiment of "I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney. " I think we know his style from here on.
What? My style of not liking a broken system? I said I don't play it for fun anymore because it's power curve completely one-sided. I have bought and built a GK army, considering its nearly impossible to lose with, might as well try to make my money back on it. If I could just sell it for 100% of my money back, I would.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/08 06:11:59
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
Jubear wrote:Mr Crass I am horrified to see an alarming lack of Brody in your avatar picture as a fellow lover of trashy woman i urge you to fix this problem asap.
Fixxed.... That other lady was really fine... But not Brody fine
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
If you WANT to compare, then fine.
No one takes Orc Boyz, at least not in a competitive environment because NG are better at tar pitting and SOBU are better at combat. But Orc Boyz are still better than state troops IMO. The T4 is invaluable.
VC core - stalemate. Empire core troops will never kill significantly more than VC can raise back, while the VC core will slowly whittle the Empire troops down. But VC troops cost less.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/08 06:59:53
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
If you WANT to compare, then fine.
No one takes Orc Boyz, at least not in a competitive environment because NG are better at tar pitting and SOBU are better at combat. But Orc Boyz are still better than state troops IMO. The T4 is invaluable.
VC core - stalemate. Empire core troops will never kill significantly more than VC can raise back, while the VC core will slowly whittle the Empire troops down. But VC troops cost less.
What?
There have been several tournaments where pure orc armies have been taken to a competitive environment and won tournaments. Though they are less worthful than the night goblins I will admit, but orcs can be used as a better damager role than goblins can.
This isn't 40k where a crappy army is completely worthless so long as a tactician is better at playing it. Otherwise Wood elves wouldn't be worth taking compared to anything at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/08 07:07:51
ZebioLizard2 wrote:There have been several tournaments where pure orc armies have been taken to a competitive environment and won tournaments. Though they are less worthful than the night goblins I will admit, but orcs can be used as a better damager role than goblins can.
This isn't 40k where a crappy army is completely worthless so long as a tactician is better at playing it. Otherwise Wood elves wouldn't be worth taking compared to anything at all.
Still not as efficient as Savages or Night Goblins, depending on whether you are going for damage or tarpit.
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:There have been several tournaments where pure orc armies have been taken to a competitive environment and won tournaments. Though they are less worthful than the night goblins I will admit, but orcs can be used as a better damager role than goblins can.
This isn't 40k where a crappy army is completely worthless so long as a tactician is better at playing it. Otherwise Wood elves wouldn't be worth taking compared to anything at all.
Still not as efficient as Savages or Night Goblins, depending on whether you are going for damage or tarpit.
Savages are excellent damage dealers. However the local meta around here has a large number of misdirection units within their armies, thus causing issues should your frenzied mobs be forced to not only charge, but pursuit a large distance away, which can not only leave them vulnerable, but take them out of the action for a number of turns depending on how badly it has done. Having watched a Brettonia player pull the trick with yeomen on a large number of frenzied mobs (Minotaurs in particular). I myself prefer something more stable within the black orcs, not to mention the varied amount of armies within this meta means I usually need something that can be more flexible when it comes to a match.
As for NG vs boyz, I prefer my anvil being able to do some damage back in return which is a more personal choice, but I do not deny that Night goblins are the far better tarpit, well so long as they never roll one's for those nets. Otherwise they become a fair bit worse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/08 07:47:24
Speaking of which, thats another thing that Empire dont have any access to. Cheap redirector units.
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
Right now, the new empire book seems to be leaning towards a detachment-oriented combat line: big blocks of dudes.
Big blocks of dudes tend to get outmaneuvered if they dont have redirectors available. Ask WoC players.
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
zeekill wrote:Why should Empire have access to anything?
Right now, the new empire book seems to be leaning towards a detachment-oriented combat line: big blocks of dudes.
Big blocks of dudes tend to get outmaneuvered if they dont have redirectors available. Ask WoC players.
Everything now is "large block of dudes" your empire is not much different than skavens ( well ok stronger and less luck oriented )
but you get your demigriffin to outmaneuver the units that outmaneuver you. You shoot them to death.
Or you get the fancy magitech thingies to blast them to death with magic.
tl;dr buy all the shinny new stuff and you'll be set.
zeekill wrote:Ok, sorry, my bad. I was quick to speak. I sincerely apologize.
But if you dont want to analyze and/or mathammer, I suggest not posting on threads where this sort of discussion is going on.
I don't see any discusssion, certainly not on your part. I see a great deal of evasion and rhetoric.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote:Does anyone else miss the days when people would test lists and new army books and THEN come to conclusions? I sure do. Y'know, that whole "adapt tactics" and "learn books" thing?
I'm sick of blowhards.
Ah yes but this is the interent age, the age of 24 hour rolling news, we need an instant reaction....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zeekill wrote:We have data. We have the armybook. We can see the overpriced troops.
Jumping to conclusions would be doing all this from rumors
That is the funniest thing I have read in ages.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/08 09:47:04
zeekill wrote:So today I buy my Empire book, and I start reading through it. I'm excited to see if all the worry was for nothing. I flip the pages, and with each rule, with each statline, with each point cost, I get more and more impressed with GW and Robin Cruddace.
Because I didn't think writing a worse book was possible. Everything that is useful went up in cost or was nerfed into uselessness, or both. Some of the things that are useless (Griffons, Cavalry, etc) went down in price, but it doesn't matter because in 8th edition these things suck anyway! Unless the halved the cost they will be useless. All of our magic items were also nerfed. VHS went up in price and is no longer optional. Armor of MI doubled in price and only gained a 6+ ward save as a bonus. No Rod of Power, instead they thought the Ring of Volans was a better include. Also, someone thought that it would be a good idea to make Warrior priests worthless compared to their previous selves, so byebye free dispel dice. Now they channel normally. Someone else probably thought it was a good idea to make bound spells the theme of this book. Everywhere you look there is a bound spell. Too bad bound spells suck. No bonus from wizard level, so you are at a -4 disadvantage with all of your casting. This makes bound spells worthless as a focus of your army. The Wizard alters suck too. T5 with 5+ armor, ZERO combat ability, and the light version gets 6++ ward. These things will drop to magic, shooting, and fast cavalry flanking in a heartbeat.
Lastly, and what pisses me off most of all, is that there is VERY LITTLE SYNERGY. All over the Army book, Cruddace gives us false pretenses of possible synergy which is actually useless and not possible. The entire book is one huge tease. For example:
1) The detachment rule says it transfers over certain special rules to the detachments if the mother unit has that rule. Here it names a rule that WE DONT EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO! Frenzy.
2) The detachment rule does NOT confer bonuses from many of the things we DO have access to. Namely +1 to hit from the Celestial Hurricanum and re-rolls to wound, ward saves, and flaming attacks from Warrior priest prayes.
3) The Stank now is worthless because of the very high chance it will just go and kill itself or make itself worthless. However the Master Engineer option is sitting there and saying "hey, I let you re-roll artillery dice!" But only for warmachines. Not for chariots.
Look at the cover of your Army Book. See how that guy looks... a bit slow? That's because you didn't buy Warhammer Armies: Empire. You bought Warhammer Armies: Empire after 20 generations of inbreeding, dementia, and a down-syndrome epidemic.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
VC players don't use Zombies or Ghouls? How... how are they winning?
Empire have cheap redirection troops. 5 man knight units with a musician. Not even 121 points.
As for hordes of knights. Empire is not a deathstar army. If we were taking a horde of knights (no more than 30) then they would have great weapons for the sustained strength 5 (or 6 if you made them inner circle).
Automatic dispel dice? It was quite easy with those dice and the rod of power for Empire to shut down an enemy's magic phase, or do a pretty devastating following magic phase. That ability had to go, just as it will go for dwarfs when their turn comes.
Crossbows and handguns are overpriced, mainly because without special rules BS based shooting is pretty dire (unless you're an Elf or have +1 to hit).
However the increase in price of halberds and swords is the result of Empire being a little too good with their ability to horde in the interim between the end of 7th and the 8th edition update.
Warrior priests are cheap. My Arch Lector has dropped in price too. The only use I see for Generals are flying Griffons into the enemy, and I won't be using them in my blocks.
Greatswords may be more expensive, but I doubt I'll ever take the field without at least 30. With the standard of discipline and bunkering my Lector and battle standard that leadership 10 bubble will be invaluable.
Reikguard knights are stubborn. With their 1+ saves you can throw a small unit into a strength 3 or 4 enemy block and have a fairly good chance that that block won't play any further part in the battle for at least a couple of turns.
I'm not going to say that the Empire book is faultless, the double nerf on mortars probably wasn't needed, the flagellants should probably have been raised only by 1 point not 2, and despite the new detachment rules I'll still probably never field detachments but there's enough variety to keep me entertained for a while.
Comparing an 8th edition book to a 7th edition book like WoC, when that book will be updated and prices increased across the board eventually, is just complaining for the sake of it. If the 8th edition WoC come out and their units are still the same price then feel free to complain, but not before.
Empire are roughly on a par with Orcs and Tomb Kings, slightly behind Vampire Counts and significantly below Ogres (but what isn't in 8th?).
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
I find passive aggressive messages in people's signatures quite amusing.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
VC players don't use Zombies or Ghouls? How... how are they winning?
I think he was being sarcastic.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2012/04/08 12:46:13
Subject: Re:GW, I'm honestly impressed with Empire
Let's face it some stuff needed nerfing: mortars were over the top, halberdiers were too cheap, free dispel dice for priests led to a priest spam that made games boring, and being able to give a character armour of meteoric iron, the speculum and a 4+ ward save was just over the top. It's early days, but I can't yet see a clear cookie cutter list or any must have units, and that suggests a balanced book.
What I would criticise however is that some units are over-nerfed. Mortars didn't need to have the strength reduced and have such a large points cost. The new points costs for swordsmen is baffling - they just aren't cost effective.
That which does not kill you can still hurt quite a lot.
2012/04/08 13:12:14
Subject: Re:GW, I'm honestly impressed with Empire
Pistoleers are much too expensive. Bare unit of 5 is nearly 100 points
Redirectors should be units of small, fast moving units with a generally small footprint that can dart in and sacrifice itself in order to allow a flank charge. Should be no more than 60-ish points, the best ones they are in the range of 20-50.
Alternatively they can also do a flee reaction, but this often results in either being too close (and subsequently run down) or the opponent redirects his charge into one of your other units.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Empire have cheap redirection troops. 5 man knight units with a musician. Not even 121 points.
That's very expensive...
Cheap is in 20-50 point ranges
Average is in the 50-70 ranges
121 points is pretty bad.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:As for hordes of knights. Empire is not a deathstar army. If we were taking a horde of knights (no more than 30) then they would have great weapons for the sustained strength 5 (or 6 if you made them inner circle).
Perhaps, but the unit probably still won't kill enough for 660 points, and only be more susceptible to all the things I mentioned to counter the knights before. Plus at 30 you lose attacks immediately when you start to take casualties.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Automatic dispel dice? It was quite easy with those dice and the rod of power for Empire to shut down an enemy's magic phase, or do a pretty devastating following magic phase. That ability had to go, just as it will go for dwarfs when their turn comes.
Yes, but they took away both. now we can't even supply our own magic phase.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Crossbows and handguns are overpriced, mainly because without special rules BS based shooting is pretty dire (unless you're an Elf or have +1 to hit).
Yep. They sucked for 8 points last edition and now they suck even more.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:However the increase in price of halberds and swords is the result of Empire being a little too good with their ability to horde in the interim between the end of 7th and the 8th edition update.
I don't agree that was worth a whole point increase however. Halberds don't put out much damage, nor can they tank any damage. Numbers is all they had going for them.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Warrior priests are cheap. My Arch Lector has dropped in price too. The only use I see for Generals are flying Griffons into the enemy, and I won't be using them in my blocks.
A captain in each parent unit for ''hold the line!'' bonuses I see as potentially useful.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Greatswords may be more expensive, but I doubt I'll ever take the field without at least 30. With the standard of discipline and bunkering my Lector and battle standard that leadership 10 bubble will be invaluable.
I would rather have the 18" Ld 9 from the WarAlter, but now that it is more points I'm not so sure anymore....
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Reikguard knights are stubborn. With their 1+ saves you can throw a small unit into a strength 3 or 4 enemy block and have a fairly good chance that that block won't play any further part in the battle for at least a couple of turns.
For that price tag they better hold it up for more than a few.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I'm not going to say that the Empire book is faultless, the double nerf on mortars probably wasn't needed, the flagellants should probably have been raised only by 1 point not 2, and despite the new detachment rules I'll still probably never field detachments but there's enough variety to keep me entertained for a while.
I personally think that with their new rules, flagellants should have gone down a point.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Comparing an 8th edition book to a 7th edition book like WoC, when that book will be updated and prices increased across the board eventually, is just complaining for the sake of it. If the 8th edition WoC come out and their units are still the same price then feel free to complain, but not before.
But right now they are not nerfed yet. So it doesn't matter. Either way it will take them months and months to get around to that considering GW's turtle-speed release schedule.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Empire are roughly on a par with Orcs and Tomb Kings, slightly behind Vampire Counts and significantly below Ogres (but what isn't in 8th?).
Your power curve seems to be a bit off. But that is ok considering the power curve in these books is more of a circle.
Orcs>TK,VC Orcs = Ogres
Ogres>TK
VC > TK, Ogres
TK
Its all hard counters. There really isn't any clear cut winner.
Hoard Of Hordes wrote:Let's face it some stuff needed nerfing: mortars were over the top, halberdiers were too cheap, free dispel dice for priests led to a priest spam that made games boring, and being able to give a character armour of meteoric iron, the speculum and a 4+ ward save was just over the top. It's early days, but I can't yet see a clear cookie cutter list or any must have units, and that suggests a balanced book.
1) Mortars - but not deserving of being nerfed into uselessness. Either make it 100-110 points, or S2. But not both
2) Halberdiers were not too cheap. If they were, then maybe a half-point too cheap. But not a full point. But Militia, Xbowmen, Handgunners, Greatswords, Flagellants, Swordsmen? Heck no. Some of them were even too expensive.
3) Yes, preist spam happened, but you payed the points. They could have even upped it by 10-20 points and I would not have minded. Plus, you are confusing "boring" with "powerful"
4) That is not nearly as OTT as Dark Elf Unkillable Dreadlords or WoC 3++ overpoweredness.
5) When you can't see cookie-cutter, you have balance. But when you can't see anything in the book that comes off as particularly powerful or undercosted, you might have an underpowered book.
Hoard Of Hordes wrote:What I would criticise however is that some units are over-nerfed. Mortars didn't need to have the strength reduced and have such a large points cost. The new points costs for swordsmen is baffling - they just aren't cost effective.
I didn't even think Swordsmen were worth it in the previous book.
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
Pistoleers are much too expensive. Bare unit of 5 is nearly 100 points
Redirectors should be units of small, fast moving units with a generally small footprint that can dart in and sacrifice itself in order to allow a flank charge. Should be no more than 60-ish points, the best ones they are in the range of 20-50.
Alternatively they can also do a flee reaction, but this often results in either being too close (and subsequently run down) or the opponent redirects his charge into one of your other units.
Yeah, and 2 salamanders are 150 pts, and I don't see any lizardmen players complaining.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.
Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.
That isn't even a valid comparison
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/08 16:11:59
I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause.
- 10,000+ (since 1994)
- 5000 (since 1996)
~4100
~1660
