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What kind of Ogres have you been fighting? That list is brilliantly weak

Zoned wrote:
*Snip*

That list..is just horrible, really now as an OK player that just relies to much on something that can be murdered messily by one good spell. Or a bunch of artillery.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Zoned wrote:

zeekill wrote:
*Snip*

That list..is just horrible, really now as an OK player that just relies to much on something that can be murdered messily by one good spell. Or a bunch of artillery.

You formatted your quote incorrectly. Please fix it Just get rid of the "quote=zeekill" I think that should do it.

zeekill wrote:

marielle wrote:
demigriffons that are the equal of mournfangs - ok they lack impact hits

They lack D3 impact hits
They lack T4
They lack 1 attack on the mounts
They lack 2 attacks on the riders
They lack the Dragonhide banner
They lack the cheapest redirectors in the game (sabretusks) as positional support

They gain WS 4, AP, and +1 AS.

Sabretusks are deployment drops and panic bombs, the redirection abilities is a bonus, and even more of a bonus is if you can rally the leadership 4 sabretusk after they have fled to draw the enemy out of position.

It's odd how your fanatically negative opinion conflicts with that I have read from GT winners, ETC players and top tier competative players. Who feel that Demigriffins are the perfect foil to Mournfangs.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Warriors of Chaos have Chaos Armour, which is a 4+ save. Most of the time they also have shields so that's a 3+ save total. They get even nastier when you add in Mark of Tzeench which gives them a 5+ ward save on top of that.

Just 6++, you don't get a parry save against shooting.

This blog post from Company of the Damned pretty much sums things up http://companyofthedamned.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/dear-empire-players.html?spref=tw

"Dearest Empire Players,

We of the Wood Elf and Beastmen community are so sorry to hear about what happened to your army with the new book. We are so sorry about the appropriate readjustment ..er.. I mean "nerf" to your already ridiculous access to warmachines. We are so sorry to learn that you not only gained Monstrous Cavalry that have a 1+ armor save but also gained another excellent cavalry unit that's Stubborn to further add amazing synergy with the new units. We are so sorry to learn that your ridiculously low priced core units were raised to appropriate levels and that your generals now provide the Lizardman "Cold-blooded" to their unit for break tests.

We are sorry to learn that your Steamtank is no longer auto-slain by spells like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades. We are also so sorry to learn that your new rare selections have provided you with mobile artillary and augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat. We are so sorry you lost your ability to gain 2 -6 dispel dice or so automatically in a magic phase by virtue of spamming warrior priests. We are also sorry that your detachments gain the benefits/special rules of their parent unit.

We are so sorry that your army became even more balanced and versatile than ever. We are so sorry that you have to rely on intelligence and skill rather than bombarding your opponent from your deployment zone with almost as much artillery as Dwarfs get and gunlines. We are so sorry you gained access to not only dragons but also griffons and pegasi! So sorry that you have now gained so much versatility that you can handle any army! We are so sorry that you can take characters that exist solely to assassinate other characters for cheap. We are also sorry that your new rare selections are just as cheap as your other warmachines yet provided amazing benefits to the army.

It has to really suck to be an empire player right now and have a balanced army....

Love,

The Wood Elf and Beastmen community."

And there are plenty of other armies that echo the sentiment...

Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.

I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )

marielle wrote:This blog post from Company of the Damned pretty much sums things up http://companyofthedamned.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/dear-empire-players.html?spref=tw

"Dearest Empire Players,

We of the Wood Elf and Beastmen community are so sorry to hear about what happened to your army with the new book. We are so sorry about the appropriate readjustment ..er.. I mean "nerf" to your already ridiculous access to warmachines. We are so sorry to learn that you not only gained Monstrous Cavalry that have a 1+ armor save but also gained another excellent cavalry unit that's Stubborn to further add amazing synergy with the new units. We are so sorry to learn that your ridiculously low priced core units were raised to appropriate levels and that your generals now provide the Lizardman "Cold-blooded" to their unit for break tests.

We are sorry to learn that your Steamtank is no longer auto-slain by spells like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades. We are also so sorry to learn that your new rare selections have provided you with mobile artillary and augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat. We are so sorry you lost your ability to gain 2 -6 dispel dice or so automatically in a magic phase by virtue of spamming warrior priests. We are also sorry that your detachments gain the benefits/special rules of their parent unit.

We are so sorry that your army became even more balanced and versatile than ever. We are so sorry that you have to rely on intelligence and skill rather than bombarding your opponent from your deployment zone with almost as much artillery as Dwarfs get and gunlines. We are so sorry you gained access to not only dragons but also griffons and pegasi! So sorry that you have now gained so much versatility that you can handle any army! We are so sorry that you can take characters that exist solely to assassinate other characters for cheap. We are also sorry that your new rare selections are just as cheap as your other warmachines yet provided amazing benefits to the army.

It has to really suck to be an empire player right now and have a balanced army....

Love,

The Wood Elf and Beastmen community."

And there are plenty of other armies that echo the sentiment...

This is brilliant
Excellent Find


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sirius42 wrote:Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.

I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )

Haven't DE already been updated? I think it was relatively recent.

Rather than picking at individual points in the "Dearest Empire Players," post, though there are many, I'll simply say this.

The new Empire book relies on buff stacking. Buff stacking does not actually work on the tabletop. It is bad army book design.

Furycat wrote:Rather than picking at individual points in the "Dearest Empire Players," post, though there are many, I'll simply say this.

The new Empire book relies on buff stacking. Buff stacking does not actually work on the tabletop. It is bad army book design.

Yes, because TK are absolutely terrible...oh wait.

TK *are* bad. They're the worst of the new books, prior to Empire. (Cant make a call yet on if they're better or worse than Empire).

They're better than they WERE, they're still a weak army.

Depending ENTIRELY on buff stacking is bad army book design, because it will not happen against an even half way competent player who understands what your buffs are and do.

Furycat wrote:TK *are* bad. They're the worst of the new books, prior to Empire. (Cant make a call yet on if they're better or worse than Empire).

They're better than they WERE, they're still a weak army.

Depending ENTIRELY on buff stacking is bad army book design, because it will not happen against an even half way competent player who understands what your buffs are and do.

Really? They seem decent to me.
Then again, I haven't had a game against them yet :/

They suffer from some of the same problems the new Empire book does. They rely heavily on stacking buffs to try and make their abjectly terrible troops capable of fighting. Unfortunately most of their buffs are based off magic, which is inherently unreliable, and can be interfered with by your opponent. Warcats are good, and can absolutely pulverise infantry, but your opponent knows this so they get re-directed by chaff, shot by cannons, obliterated with magic, or simply tarpitted with ethereal creatures.

Dont get me wrong, there's some nice stuff in there, Tomb Scorpions are pretty nifty for example, but unless you get very lucky, or your opponent makes a fairly serious mistake, they just dont perform. (Ogres is a particularly hellish match up)

Johnny-Crass wrote:What kind of Ogres have you been fighting? That list is brilliantly weak

Hey Johnny, how about you explain why? You ducked me when I disproved you in my Empire thread, now you just say "it's weak" and run.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:That list..is just horrible, really now as an OK player that just relies to much on something that can be murdered messily by one good spell. Or a bunch of artillery.

I disagree. By spreading out your points into 3 units of Mournfang, you make your army less vulnerable to one big spell. People get that the 625pts in core isn't necessarily one big deathstar, right? It's whatever you want to fill you min core with. And I don't see this army dying superfast to "mass" artillery - again, shooting cannons at Mournfang means at best one model dead (assuming you don't expose your flank) and less shots at any ranked up units of Bulls/Guts. Don't forget my list still has 3 Tusks and 2 Ironblasters to charge/shoot back.

And for the record, while I think multiple units of Mournfang are good, I think there are lots of good options in the Ogre book which yield many different kinds of builds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sirius42 wrote:Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.

I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )

Haven't DE already been updated? I think it was relatively recent.

LunaHound wrote:

zeekill wrote:Honestly I have to agree here. I make a thread just to point out that the new book sucks and everyone starts cussing and calling me names.

The new book only sucks if you plan on using what you already owned.
Its not just for Empire, its this way for every.single.GW release.

Exactly, at my LGS there is a guy who claims the new necrons codex is rubbish cause he hasn't won with it in the 2 games he played because he hasn't even attempted to learn how to readjust their tactics just like zeekill.

Sirius42 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sirius42 wrote:Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.

I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )

Haven't DE already been updated? I think it was relatively recent.

DE were just after VC last time round IIRC.

Any ogre list that is light on characters and core is weak. You only need one unit of MF as they fit a very niche role that you really do not need multiple units filling.

Ironguts or Bullhorde with a couple gnomblar drops take you well over min core and then a kitted Lvl 4, Fire Belly with HH and a BSB take another big chunk of points out. Points that have been funneled into extra mournfang that you do not need.



As for the letter from the "Woodelf and Beastmen community" those people clearly have not played someone who is half competent with the book. In my area woodelves bark at the top three and my beastmen are consistently in the top 5 at tournaments. Beastmen have one of the last truly broken magic phases and I have read the Empire book, trust me Beastmen book is stronger in ANY hands.

I allocated 500-600pts to characters, right?

Slaughtermaster level 4 with 5+ward and dispel scroll, Bruiser BSB, and a Firebelly fall short of 600pts. No magic banner (would like to find room for a Runemaw) and no HH (at the end of the day, a luxury item. I'd rather take the initiative sword or initiative potion to make sure flaming attacks knock regen off a HPA or Hydra.)

I can't see much of a need beyond that. If you really need more points, drop one of the 3 units of Mournfang. Two units are still scary.

Care to explain why light on core is weak? I would argue that Mournfang will out fight and generally outlast equal points of bulls and guts. The exception of course is to initiative spells and super mass artillery.

I actually think Bull/Gut hordes are horrible. Easy to redirect and pretty much equals an autoloss to anybody who takes a level 4 Death wizard.

I'd rather take 6 Guts with command (Slaughtermaster and BSB go here) and 7 Bulls with shields and command (Firebelly goes here) = 542. Remaining points can be spent on Gnoblar drops.

Ironguts can take a +1ld banner and can pull their weight in combat. Add onto that you have fast moving Sabretusks and MF to take out any pesky mages and you should be set.

Ogres almost always win at deployment as the average list has 5+ chaff drops. You should know where that scary death mage is

Well I don't want to de-rail this thread any further with Ogre talk.

I'll just say that my build can take all those things you mention, and it still has at least 2 units of 4 Mournfang. Your claim was that most competitive lists don't take more than 1 unit, I say that I can take all the essentials just fine and instead of padding the army out with more Guts/Bulls, I'd rather take a second (or third) unit of Mournfang. If you'd like to continue this Ogre discussion, please PM me.

Furycat wrote:Rather than picking at individual points in the "Dearest Empire Players," post, though there are many, I'll simply say this.

The new Empire book relies on buff stacking. Buff stacking does not actually work on the tabletop. It is bad army book design.

^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat. You can cry "Demigryphs" all you want but those don't have the damage required to get rid of ranked units.

marielle wrote:
"Dearest Empire Players,

We are so sorry about the appropriate readjustment ..er.. I mean "nerf" to your already ridiculous access to warmachines.
You of course mean how all of them but the cannon and maybe the rocket battery were nerfed into uselessness, right?
We are so sorry to learn that you not only gained Monstrous Cavalry that have a 1+ armor save
Which does not put out enough damage to counter how poor our core is...
but also gained another excellent cavalry unit that's Stubborn to further add amazing synergy with the new units.
Since when was cavalry any good? Especially Cavalry that can't put out any damage after first turn.
We are so sorry to learn that your ridiculously low priced core units were raised to appropriate levels and that your generals now provide the Lizardman "Cold-blooded" to their unit for break tests.
Yes. Our "ridiculously" low priced units that were so priced because they suck and can't soak any damage.
We are sorry to learn that your Steamtank is no longer auto-slain by spells like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades.
That's ok, keep in mind it's T6 now, and after 1 wound only works 66% of the time...
We are also so sorry to learn that your new rare selections have provided you with mobile artillary and augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat.
Close combat armies might break into a cold sweat, but our crappy troops will still die just as quickly as before and fail to put out any significant damage, just as before.
Furthermore, the laser is not much better than your average bolt thrower and will always be dispelled because your opponent gets +2 or +4 to dispel, while you don't get bonuses to cast. The heavens version only does significant damage on the roll of a 4, and even then that is only after successfully casting the spell without your opponent dispelling.
We are so sorry you lost your ability to gain 2 -6 dispel dice or so automatically in a magic phase by virtue of spamming warrior priests.
Thanks.
We are also sorry that your detachments gain the benefits/special rules of their parent unit.
But not the "augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat"
We are so sorry that your army became worse and more reliant on magic than ever.
Fixed.
We are so sorry that you have to rely onluck and your opponent to pity your worthless attempts to cast your buffs while he gets bonuses to dispelling rather than bombarding your opponent from your deployment zone with almost as much artillery as Dwarfs get and gunlines.
Fixed.
We are so sorry you gained access to not only dragons but also griffons and pegasi!
Hooray! A dragon with a rider that can't fight in combat for his life, your average T5 no-save monster that will run into combat and do nothing but die, and your average flying cavalry mount. Can't you just see the excitement on my face...
So sorry that you have now gained so much versatility that you can handle any army!
But we can't because our troops drop like flies and don't do any damage.
We are so sorry that you can take characters that exist solely to assassinate other characters for cheap.
That have a 12" range and BS4, and only assassinate on a killing blow. That means you need 5's and then 6's to kill anything.
We are also sorry that your new rare selections are just as cheap as your other warmachines yet provided amazing benefits to the army.
Except that they are not warmachines. If they were warmachines they would fire like cannons and such. What we get is a worthless bound spell on an expensive wagon that will die to a feather brushing against it.
It has to really suck to be an empire player right now and have a weakarmy.
Fixed

You also have to remember that all empire bound spells are innate and therefore cannot miscast so you can throw 6 dice at a prayer if needed and it can irresistible with no negative, same goes for the laser of light (which makes it quite good for shooting up stegadons and other large monsters)

About the Steam Tank:

As long as you only make 4 Steam Points (which is what Empire players did anyway) - the Steam tank is still reliable.

Have you looked at the misfire table?

4 Steam Points means that if you misfire, you can't blow yourself up.

Most of the results yield either lost some steam points or gain some steam points (at the cost of some wounds.) This means that the Steam Tank is still doing something!

Whereas in the old version, misfiring meant useless for a turn.

Let's say the Steam Tank drops down to 4 wounds (pretty drastic and still pretty hard considering T6 and 1+ armour.) You choose to make 4 Steam Points. If you roll 2-4 on the artillery dice, you're absolutely fine. If you roll anything else, your most likely results is losing D3 or D6 steam points. You have a decent chance of still firing the cannon which is a real cannon now barring range.

So I feel the Steam Tank is pretty good even under pretty horrible conditions (4 wounds left) - forget the fact that early game it's way more reilable. Add the 360 charge and points break and you have a winner.

zeekill wrote:

Furycat wrote:Rather than picking at individual points in the "Dearest Empire Players," post, though there are many, I'll simply say this.

The new Empire book relies on buff stacking. Buff stacking does not actually work on the tabletop. It is bad army book design.

^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat. You can cry "Demigryphs" all you want but those don't have the damage required to get rid of ranked units.

Empire wasn't really close to viable in combat last book really. You had to do enough damage to them before they hit your lines to have a chance. That and make your combat stuff unbreakable.

Sirius42 wrote:You also have to remember that all empire bound spells are innate and therefore cannot miscast so you can throw 6 dice at a prayer if needed and it can irresistible with no negative, same goes for the laser of light (which makes it quite good for shooting up stegadons and other large monsters)

Yes. You get your spell off, and then your troops still lose in combat. You need multiple buffs to even hope to stand up to enemy combat troops.

Zoned wrote:About the Steam Tank:

As long as you only make 4 Steam Points (which is what Empire players did anyway) - the Steam tank is still reliable.

Have you looked at the misfire table?

4 Steam Points means that if you misfire, you can't blow yourself up.

Most of the results yield either lost some steam points or gain some steam points (at the cost of some wounds.) This means that the Steam Tank is still doing something!

Whereas in the old version, misfiring meant useless for a turn.

Let's say the Steam Tank drops down to 4 wounds (pretty drastic and still pretty hard considering T6 and 1+ armour.) You choose to make 4 Steam Points. If you roll 2-4 on the artillery dice, you're absolutely fine. If you roll anything else, your most likely results is losing D3 or D6 steam points. You have a decent chance of still firing the cannon which is a real cannon now barring range.

So I feel the Steam Tank is pretty good even under pretty horrible conditions (4 wounds left) - forget the fact that early game it's way more reilable. Add the 360 charge and points break and you have a winner.

True, but it is still T6 now, and with the amount of S5/S6 in today's meta you will be hurting.
Also it can no longer win combat is subsequent turns, as its "grind" is done in the movement phase.

zeekill wrote:Which does not put out enough damage to counter how poor our core is...
...
Our "ridiculously" low priced units that were so priced because they suck and can't soak any damage.

I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board. Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...

Ahh, who am I kidding?!? You'll just reply "pssh, free Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and 5+ ward or Wounds re-rolls are useless and suck and deserve to die a slow death and burn in hell!"

My bad, don't know what I was thinking trying to actually change an unreasonable person's mind! Over the internet of all things!!

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board. Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...

You still need to get the warrior priest spells off. That's like saying simply by taking a Lore of Light I should be able to count on Birona's Timewarp.

A savvy opponent is going to try to shut those down, especially since they're only power level 3.

A savvy opponent is going to try to shut those down, especially since they're only power level 3.

Potentially, but all you need to do is one dice is while the enemy can fail on a 1 or 2 if he tries to one dice it.

So you just need to make him decide whether his dispel dice is worth hitting the bound spells, or your upper level echelon of spells.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

A savvy opponent is going to try to shut those down, especially since they're only power level 3.

Potentially, but all you need to do is one dice is while the enemy can fail on a 1 or 2 if he tries to one dice it.

So you just need to make him decide whether his dispel dice is worth hitting the bound spells, or your upper level echelon of spells.

plus, the Cold-Blooded and Hatred are innate rules. Plus, the ability to have all 3 simultaneously (Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ Ward or Wound re-rolls) is unique to Empire, as far as I know.